Sun editorial:

Maglev in the running

High-tech train system’s planners vow to go forward, despite competing system

Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2009 | 2:07 a.m.

A proposal for moving passengers between Las Vegas and Anaheim, Calif., features a maglev train that would flow powerfully, cleanly and silently — no friction, no moving parts — on a cushion of air at 300 mph.

Representatives of the American Magline Group, a coalition of companies partnering to build the proposed low-maintenance maglev system, say it would be built entirely in California and Nevada, creating thousands of local jobs.

All that would be imported, by way of a licensing agreement between the German company that developed the technology and the American companies that would build it, is the engineering and construction knowledge.

There would also be immense long-term benefits for Las Vegas. As Anaheim is a major destination, owing to Disneyland, and close to other population centers, more tourists would come from Southern California.

In the future, aspirations now under discussion could result in the magnetic levitation system being expanded to major cities in Arizona and all the way to the East Coast, enabling more tourists to come from that direction and opening new travel options for Southern Nevadans.

These are some of the reasons why we were glad to learn that American Magline Group officials said Monday night that they were going to “continue no matter what” on their plans to build the Las Vegas-Anaheim route.

Speaking at UNLV, the officials said they would proceed with their plans even if a rival group succeeds in getting a more traditional — steel wheels on rails — train system called DesertXpress built between Las Vegas and Victorville, Calif.

Las Vegas Sun reporter Richard N. Velotta quoted Neil Cummings, president of the American Magline Group, as saying, “I’d have no problem building our train alongside it (DesertXpress) and put them out of business.” Our view is that the privately funded DesertXpress, which would move at only half the speed of a maglev, would have little value principally because Victorville — more than an hour’s drive northeast of Los Angeles — is not a destination for either business or leisure travel.

We believe that a maglev system, built with private and public money, could transform Las Vegas over the next decades, while DesertXpress would have little or no effect.

Discussion: 22 comments so far…

By Future

9/30/09 at 2:22 a.m.

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Its The LV Sun against Too Big to Fail Senator Harry Reid

Go Sun
By rafael

9/30/09 at 4:22 a.m.

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Last November, California passed prop 1A(2008) authorizing the construction of a steel wheels HSR system in that state, including an LA-Ontario-San Diego leg in phase 2. There is neither available right of way nor political support in California for federal funding for a second, incompatible high speed rail line through the San Gabriel valley.

Please stop chasing this maglev pipedream. You're all acting as if this was Nevada's decision alone to make, even though most of the proposed route is actually in California. Nobody there gives a damn about petty Nevada politics.

I agree Victorville isn't attractive, either, unless you happen to live in San Bernardino or Riverside. What Nevada needs is a steel wheels connector the SF-LA-Anaheim starter line of the California HSR system and DesertXPress. Make sure they pick compatible technology (i.e. 220mph top speed), sign a contract on trackage rights and start running direct Anaheim-LA-LV and SF-Fresno-LV trains in the 2018-2020 time frame.

Funding for the connector plus higher speeds could come from canceling the Ivanpah Valley relief airport. The land could and should be used for a solar thermal power plant instead, if only to run the trains on renewable electricity.

The LV Sun needs to advocate what is realistically possible. California imposes constraints that Nevada cannot ignore.
By SgtRock

9/30/09 at 5:30 a.m.

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Spend, spend, spend.....deficits, deficits, deficits...tax, tax, tax...Spend, spend, spend.....deficits, deficits, deficits...tax, tax, tax...Spend, spend, spend.....deficits, deficits, deficits...tax, tax, tax...Spend, spend, spend.....deficits, deficits, deficits...tax, tax, tax...Spend, spend, spend.....deficits, deficits, deficits...tax, tax, tax...Spend, spend, spend.....deficits, deficits, deficits...tax, tax, tax...Spend, spend, spend.....deficits, deficits, deficits...tax, tax, tax...

Until.....nobody wants to buy US Treasury bills anymore and then.....

END OF THE USA

But we will have at least have a fancy train that does the exact same thing as plane but be 10,000x more expensive.

No wonder we are driving as fast as we can over the cliff.

Damn the future generations.....we gotta have our train.
By rafael

9/30/09 at 7:29 a.m.

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@ SgtRock -

integrating Las Vegas into the California HSR network would eliminate the need to widen I-15 east of Victorville and the need to build a relief airport in the Ivanpah Valley. Did you think freeways and airports cost the taxpayer nothing? How about the hidden cost of defending US access to cheap oil?

DX comes close to meeting the above objective and will not require taxpayer involvement beyond a loan guarantee for at most $4 billion. The Victorville terminus is a marginal proposition at best, but a connector from Barstow to Mojave would permit direct service from LV to LA, Anaheim and SF in phase 1 and to Sacramento and San Diego in phase 2.
By Patrick_R_Gibbons

9/30/09 at 8:43 a.m.

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According to Cato, high speed plans in Denver and Seattle are already 60 to 100 percent over their original cost projections.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-625.pdf

Rafael, for the price of this maglev train we could build more than 1,000 miles of 4 lane highway. We could build considerably more if we leased the land to private companies to build toll roads. Highways carry far more traffic than a maglev and thus, would relieve far more congestion. Subsidies for public highways are also considerably less. Subsidies for private toll roads are virtually non existent.
By rafael

9/30/09 at 10:35 a.m.

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@ Patrick_R_Gibbons -

(a) I'm not advocating maglev for Las Vegas to California.

(b) A two-track high speed rail system has the capacity of a 12-lane highway. French railways SNCF operates around 15 trains per hour each way on its Paris-Lyon line. Those include two downtown-to-downtown express TGV Duplex trains with 16 cars and 1090 seats each way every hour. Average seat capacity utilization for the TGV network as a whole is 75%.

(c) Cars don't travel safely at 220-240mph. Long drives waste both a lot of time and a lot of fossil fuel.
By Patty

9/30/09 at 10:52 a.m.

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The Maglev is the train to nowhere. If it is ever built -- its first phase is only to Primm. They are not doing any environmental or engineering work in California. DesertXpress goes 200 miles into California with its first phase with a future extension only 50 miles west to Palmdale connecting to all of California with metrolink and the CA HSR system.
The next generation high speed rail is the future -- Maglev is dead -- just look at China -- the only country in the world to implement Maglev just ordered 4 billion dollars worth of steel wheel trains.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=n...

And look at Germany -- the country that developed Maglev 30 years ago -- they don't have a system either.

There is no way the Maglev can be profitable at $12B of capital costs and even that huge number is a fraction of what public agencies have estimated it will really cost. China decided not to extend their system because it is a financial disaster. 11 million people drove by Victorville last year on their way to Las Vegas -- it is the natural collection point of all east/west freeways in the Los Angeles basin. The real question is -- who would drive to Anaheim and how will they possibly fit all the parking they would need to make the station work? How is Maglev ever going to be able to stay inside the freeway into Anaheim -- the roads are all built out. They will have to buy up the houses and businesses along the freeway -- never going to happen.

If Maglev is such a great idea and the supporters will make so much money building it - why haven't they invested their own money like DesertXpress has over the last 4 years since they got their 45M.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2005/aug...

They've already gotten 11 million in federal funds - why spend more tax money? Let them spend their own money like DesertXpress and may the best project win.
By El_Lobo

9/30/09 at 11:12 a.m.

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Hmmmmm.....I see PvtRock is alive and well with his usual rant. I found it refreshing that "little pebble" is so worried and concerned with what he feels is going to happen to future generations......

A caring and compassionate conservative? Wow! The Sun now comes up in the West... Miracles never cease...

I also found it more than funny when "little pebble" said, with his usual failed attempt at sarcasm, "Damn the future generations.....we gotta have our train..."

The statement by "little pebble" saying that "no wonder we are driving as fast as we can over the cliff' is most interesting since we started our downward plunge under the clueless leadership of the "little pebble's" all time favorite president, George junior.

I believe we all remember George junior, don't we? Two wars in the Middle East, and tax cuts to America's rich, not to mention a real determination to always use force rather than diplomacy on all problems big and small... Yep! That's the guy!

Maybe a case of "selective amnesia" on the part of we know who??

Heck no! Just more "cherry picking" by one of the board's long time ranters....
By SgtRock

9/30/09 at 11:53 a.m.

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Here is a common argument from Low Ball and his fellow Dumocrats:

1) Bush pushed up the deficit (that is true)

2) We (Dumocrats) want to be just like Bush and also push up the deficits

3) If fact, we (Dumocrats) want to be 100x's like Bush and we are OK with generating a $2 trillion deficit and trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. We could care less about possible inflationary effects in the coming decade, we could care less that so much treasury bonds are being issued that it crowds out private investment and we could care less that there it is highly likely that great harm that will come to future generations. Damn to those future generations. They will just have to learn live with a much lower quality of life.

Please....please...please...go with that arugment into the 2010 and 2012 elections.

Dumocrats Campaign Motto: "We want to be like Bush"
By Patrick_R_Gibbons

9/30/09 at 3:36 p.m.

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Rafael,

Are those numbers assuming full capacity? 16,000 people per hour sounds great, but can that be sustained? How long does that last? It certainly isn't 16,000 people per hour 24 hours a day 27 hours a week.

Afterall, almost all evidence suggests that urban train systems in the US carry only a fraction of the traffic (often less than 5%).

How many people do you think travel the free ways to and from Vegas per hour? How about around Vegas?
By Patrick_R_Gibbons

9/30/09 at 3:47 p.m.

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PS, according to Cato, France is an exception to the rule on high speed rail.

In France rail carries 54% of the traffic. Only Germany (26%) and Italy (10%) have rail that exceeds 5%

Interestingly, they also note that automobile travel in France and Germany is also higher than the rest of Europe because the rail competes away riders from other forms of public transportation including busses.

On a side note, this is why the left likes urban planning and so called smart growth. They want to fit people to their policy preferences by cramming them in cramped urban cores forcing them to give up their cars via artificially induced traffic jams, rather than fitting the policies to the people.

Overall, it seems that rail only carries about 6% of the traffic between states in Europe and is losing ground to air travel (thanks to a relaxation of air travel restrictions now they are the EU).
By El_Lobo

9/30/09 at 5:55 p.m.

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PvtRock I think I hit the nail on the head when I said:

"Maybe a case of "selective amnesia" on the part of we know who??

Heck no! Just more "cherry picking" by one of the board's long time ranters...."

If you're slow on the up-take. which we all know is true, that was you that I was talking about...the "ranting cherry picker" who also suffers from "selective amnesia."

I can't believe you didn't defend your most favorite president. Wow! Are you saying that junior did a terrible job? I bet you voted for him not once but twice.....right?

Did you also vote for McBush? Tell the truth now.....

I don't believe I said anything along the line that "We (Dumocrats) want to be just like Bush and also push up the deficits." I beleive you said that.....Right?

The proof will be in the pudding my "little pebble" friend. Once the economy starts to turn around, which it will, look for the deficit to start on a steady down hill slide.

Once the huge tax breaks for the rich that your favorite president gave them expires, look for the deficit to decrease even more....

I believe the tax breaks for the rich expires in 2011....That is correct, is it not?

As far as the 2010 and 2012 election are concerned, put this in your "little pebble" pipe and smoke it....

If the economy starts to come around, which it will, and the left-over wars created by the clueless man from Texas starts to wind-down, and a good health care bill is signed into law, then the only hope for the GOP will be to completely disband their party and start a new one.....

I think the new Republican Party might consider the name "Whig" as their new party name... That name was used for a while, but it went the same way the present GOP is going...into obscurity...

An obscure name for an obscure party......sound about right!
By SgtRock

9/30/09 at 6:20 p.m.

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Oh...yeah.....Yep...Dumocrats will balance the budget by creating new massive governments programs left and right, giving a trillion or so to corporations and also building billion dollar toy trains to make us all feel good.

Great plan....stay with that......go into the 2010 and 2012 elections with that game plan.

This president is most anti-jobs and anti-business president ever. He is worst than Jimmy Carter in that regard.

Like Biden said, this adminstration is clueless about the economy. They predicated that the "stimulus" bill would keep unemployment under 8 percent.

Also, they are ignoring Biden's plea to focus on a 3 letter word, "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs"....(I guess he has not learn to count yet).

Jobs is priority number 2,234,232 for Obama.

The cash-for-clunkers....excellent, excellent program...I hope Titus runs tons of commericals on how she pushed hard for that crap.
By El_Lobo

9/30/09 at 6:59 p.m.

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PvtRock......

I'm starting to worry about you. Being as negative as you are is not good for your health. Maybe Obama's health care reform will work in your favor....We can only hope!

You didn't answer my questions....why is that? Are you ashamed to admit that you vote not once but twice for Texas George? You also didn't comment on my question asking if you voted for McBush....why is that? Are you also ashamed to admit that?

Who are you pulling for as we head into 2010 and 2012? Is Palin your presidential hopeful? If so, who do you want as her VP candidate? Joe Wilson of South Carolina? Maybe John Ensign, your local hero!

Who has your vote for governor of Nevada? Are you going to again vote for governor "blockhead?" It appears that you & he agree on how to best deal with the current recession....The old "Herbert Hoover approach"......do nothing!

Obama has been in office less than 9 months. It's tough to tell much in terms of what is going on with the economy. Some economists say the "Bush recession" is showing signs of going South...

I guess it's best to say that "the proof will be in the pudding." Time will tell! Do you agree with that assessment?

I would love to hear you answer the questions that I ask you......I realize that having to admit that you voted for a couple of losers is hard to stomach but I have faith in you...

Be a "rock." I know you can....
By SgtRock

9/30/09 at 7:39 p.m.

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You are so right, low-ball.

"Obama has been in office less than 9 months."

It was SOOOOOOOOO DUMB of Obama's adminstration to predict that the "stimulus" would keep unemployment under 8%.

Thanks for pointing out that stupidity.

Also, I am very confident that you are one of the boneheads that in one breath ...place all 9/11 on Bush's shoulders (less than 8 months in office)... but then punt when it comes to Obama own predictions of his own greatness turn into mush.

Be sure to give the 411 to Obama to stop making dumb predictions.

You do notice that they dropped that nonsense of saying that Obama will either create or "save" 13 kun-zillion jobs.
By MagMajor

9/30/09 at 8:57 p.m.

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Steel wheel on steel rail to Victorville? Brought to you by the same people who designed and built the Las Vegas mono-snail that doesn't link up to the airport? Doesn't anyone see a pattern of flawed thinking/planning here?

For ridership to be sufficient to support operations, a system must connect destinations that people travel between and be fast, clean, comfortable and convenient.

Then there is the issue of maintenance, which maglev totally has over rail.

There are lots of opinions on this board revealing either hidden agendas or phenomenal ignorance. What a damning indictment of our educational system.

The DesertXpress will be exactly that if it gets built: a train to nowhere, with no riders, and empty stations. It is an ill-conceived plan that will lose more money than the mono-snail - only faster, of course.
By El_Lobo

9/30/09 at 9:44 p.m.

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PvtRock.....

Answer the questions that I ask you.... Is that so hard to do? Apparently for you.....

Stay just the way you are......NEGATIVE to a fault! I wouldn't recognize you if you changed and actually had something positive to say about anything.

Oop's I forgot! You're a conservative and your party is out of power (actually lost in the political wilderness....)and you have NO PLAN of any kind in terms of dealing with anything that's going on....

Shame on me for thinking that the party out of power has the responsibility of providing constructive criticism to the party in power.

The "Party of NO!" What a group! They had eight years to get something done and guess what? They screwed-up on ALL fronts and now they're back where they belong.....out of power & of course, with out a clue.

"NO.......NO........NO.......NO"....... Hmmmm.....that's a recognizable rant....somethings never change!
By SgtRock

9/30/09 at 11:54 p.m.

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Switching from talking about policy to talking about the person.

Yep....it is like playing the race card.

It is sign that you have abandon the battlefield of ideas and logic and raise the white flag which Democrats are accustomed to doing in the real world battlefield, too.
By El_Lobo

10/1/09 at 10:32 a.m.

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PvtRock......

Answer the questions I ask you.......that is, if you're man enough!

The last time I looked, the Democrats were in control. It's not me nor the party of the elephant who has abandoned the "battlefield of ideas and logic."

That sounds like you just described yourself and the party that you always blindly vote for, the "Party of NO."

Brace up "little pebble." Great change is coming into your life starting with health care reform. You will never admit it, but you're going to love it.....
By rafael

10/1/09 at 1:12 p.m.

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@ Robert_R_Gibbons -

"16,000 people per hour sounds great, but can that be sustained?"

I was referring to the ultimate capacity of the rails in nominal operations. If the infrastructure and trains are properly maintained and traffic generated by multiple operators properly managed (i.e. there are integrated time tables), it's entirely possible to safely operate 15 trains per hour each way whenever there is sufficient passenger demand. Depending on car design and configuration, an HSR train will offer anywhere from 250 to 1200 seats, with around 500 typical.

If the rails are dedicated to HSR traffic end-to-end, even higher throughput is possible. JR actually operates as many as 24 trains per hour on some sections of the shinkansen network during peak times. Some of those trains offer over 1500 seats. Running that many trains leaves very little slack, so their drivers are given incentives to zealously stick to their schedules. It's normal for trains to complete 500-mile journeys within 30 seconds(!) of their nominal arrival time.

The bigger issue is whether stations and connecting transit/transportation can match the capacity of the long-distance rail system, even if that is only utilized during peak periods. In the case of Las Vegas-California, it's not unreasonable to assume that Friday nights inbound and Sunday evening/Monday early mornings outbound will be peak periods, as will the start and end days of major conventions.

Regardless of technology, Las Vegas might need to beef up local transit - including privately operated coach/shuttle services - to move many thousands of passengers and their bags between the station and hotels in the city. After all, the point is to encourage more visitors to come, not just for those coming anyhow to switch from air/auto to trains.

Note that freeways and airports aren't fully utilized at all times, either. Even when the number of vehicles moving through does saturate them, they're not always the largest ones nor is every available seat utilized. Similarly, not every TGV train SNCF runs on its Paris-Lyon trunk line is a 16-car Duplex consist.
By mwileynet

10/4/09 at 10:55 a.m.

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Let's get even bolder, the Maglev should then connect to Santa Fe, New Mexico, Denver, Co., Salt Lake City and then back to Vegas.

Now you have a community of Western States to deliver quiet and efficient transportation to.

Make it inexpensive and watch the people visit their neighbors. Hey honey let's go shopping Saturday afternoon in Santa Fe. or go see the Denver Broncos play. How about a day of skiing up North. Time for us to move forward and leave the failure of Obama behind us.

This once great nation became greater by connecting cities with the train, time to start again.

Mike Wiley