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In politics, rivalry has become destructive
Friday, Sept. 4, 2009 | 2:04 a.m.
There are people who insist the nation’s health care system is in disarray. They say we are paying too much, many policyholders are being refused medical care, and people are losing their homes because their benefits happen to be capped.
Meanwhile, there are others who think nothing has to be done. Those who are satisfied with their coverage think the problem has been exaggerated.
All the while the national debate has been getting meaner and louder.
If we do nothing, and insurance premiums become too costly even for those who are happy with the status quo, if more and more people lose their homes because of health care costs, and if more and more people are refused medical insurance because of preexisting conditions, then what? Will we someday be looking at a crisis and blaming Congress for missing the boat, as we did with the financial disaster?
America has chosen to be a country of factions. It is one thing to have a rivalry like the Red Sox-Yankees in baseball or Yale-Harvard or Ohio State-Michigan in college football, but those are spirited rivalries, not precursors to the dysfunction of their sports programs.
I see in politics right now two groups that are in mortal combat, perhaps looking for personal success that is more important to them than the needs and future of our nation. I, for one, am waiting for a degree of civility and reason.
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Ken- your correct in your assessment. The problem becomes when its take the whole package, right now, nothing less will do. People tend to gag when things are shoved down their throat. Why does this whole thing with health care have to be done this week, can't we take our time, take small steps to fix the problem over time?? It took 50 years to get to this point, why does the proposed solution, and according to some, the only solution, only taking 6 months to figure out??? Picking out the White House dog took more time than is being spent on the health care bill. Lets all take a step back, catch our breath, and work on this in a logical manner. (Are we rushing this through the system because some are fearful if it does not happen right now, there will be a shift in the balance of power in Washington and they will not get their way ?? )
hey kenny...
it is really very simple...
you either support the public option which is the best means to drive down the cost of health care...
or...
you support excessive profits for the greedy pig insurance companies with their very real death panels and the excessive salaries of the money grubbing whore doctors...
period...
end of story...
everything else is just noise created by the retarded republican party...
the retarded republicans have never negotiated in good faith...
they are more interested in defeating obama than doing what is best for the country...
thus the phrase...
retarded republicans!!!
National health care is just another way for 2% of the people telling the other 98% how to live there life. Then the government tells us the kind of car we will be allowed to drive' Whats foods to eat' After that they will tell us what time we are allowed to take a sh#t. The Democrat party can take there public option and shove it right up there option! PS. AND YOU CAN ALSO GO AHEAD AND KEEP THE CHANGE!!!
Udde-who doesn't even live here-boda and Birdie! Do you two ever get up on the "right" side of the bed? One wonders...
Here's the deal. Americans are not cattle to be prodded into a corral somewhere. We like choice. We also, "we" meaning conservatives, realize that the system needs change. HOWEVER, none of the changes that we feel are responsible in part for the rise in healthcare costs are even on the table. Tort reform is a perfect example. Doctors spend untold amounts of time and money protecting themselves from ridiculous law suits,which even won, are costly. Not all doctors are evil as Birdie claims. But mistakes are made which I think it goes with the territory. And, yes, I think it's very unfortunate.
Another issue for conservatives and moderates alike is a healthy fear of rationed care. You pooh-pooh this, and yet, only this morning there was another article from British doctors lamenting the care given to terminal patients and the fact that cost cutting is necessary (so we'll just choose the ones who are already going to die) since costs are sky high. That makes a lot of sense unless it's your mom, dad or grandparent. I'll bet you'd have an issue then!
Is this really what America needs? I don't think so and neither do millions of other Americans. Of course this is where you call me "biased" Birdie because I have a first hand view.
Let me just say, from where I stand, I get a really good look. We have doctors in town who RIGHT NOW...can't even get the mesh they have asked for to be used in a simple hernia repair--because the insurance company is not profiting. Is this wrong? I think so. I think that profiting from healthcare is a little crazy at times and this proves that rationing will definitely be an issue in many forms. I also think that by forcing more competition via interstate insurance will only give Americans more choice and better rates. Of course, those nasty insurance companies will be unhappy...but they will get used to it as the alternative is to be forced out of business by a government option. Which...will do nothing for the Americans who are happy with the healthcare they already have to which you screech..."you got yours so screw the rest of us..." which is both desperate and unfair.
When you address the bogus number of 47 million uninsured and whittle down to its truthful 10-13 million...it's not hard to see why Americans are stampeding. Change...absolutely. Just not what this administration is trying to ram through.
hey biasedthinker...
you are a fraud...
just repeating the retarded republican talking points once again...
we have tort reform in 46 states...
got that skippy...
it's a joke...
it doesn't work...
there will be no death panels...
none...
there will be no rationing...
we will not be the british system...
there is no rationing now in medicare...
got that skippy...
insurance company profits are sky high...
you are a fraud...
a complete and total fraud...
bottom line....
the public option is the very best means to finally finally take a bite out of the excessive profits of the greedy pig insurance companies and their very real death panels and the excessive salaries of the money grubbing whore doctors...
not to mention...
how the greedy pig insurance companies won't cover you if you have a pre-existing conditon...
how they can drop your coverage after you get sick...
how they cherry pick only the healthy customers...
how they have the politicians in their back pocket...
how the have an oligopoly...
how they executives get huge bonuses...
bottom line...
and on and on and on...
this is the conversation we need to have...
not tort reform for the 1,000th time...
but then again you already knew that...
oh by the way...
hey biased thinker...
don't you think you are messing with karma given your situation...
big time!!!
Ummm......Indythinker?
One: Nevada enacted tort reform just a few short years ago. I'm still waiting for the promised savings. My physician friends are still waiting to see their malpractice insurance rates go down.
Two: Care is rationed now based on your ability to pay. The current system has rationed 47 million Americans right out of the health care market, and many millions more are just one serious illness away.
"When you address the bogus number of 47 million uninsured and whittle down to its truthful 10-13 million..."
Would you like to substantiate this statement with any credible evidence? Citation please, and not Fox News or World Net Daily.
Hey Birdie - you never answered my question as to why you have it in for anyone that makes more money than you??? And while your at it, if you ever have any money, will you be as free with yours as your trying to be with everybody elses???
"America has chosen to be a country of factions."
Anderson -- "America" didn't make that choice, Americans did. It's called individual freedom. You should look into it.
What you're really longing for here is a centralized totalitarian government -- something this country's founders fought a Revolution to overthrow. Perhaps you'd prefer we all march lockstep beside you, shouting Big Brother's slogans. I for one will be glad to disappoint you and your ilk at every opportunity.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin "Historical Review of Pennsylvania," 1759
JohnF: It's not my personal opinion. This has been substantiated many times in several places...
There were 45.7 million uninsured people in the U.S. in 2007.
Of that amount, 6.4 million are the Medicaid undercount. These are people who are on one of two government health insurance programs, Medicaid or S-CHIP, but mistakenly (intentionally or not) tell the Census taker that they are uninsured. There is disagreement about the size of the Medicaid undercount. This figure is based on a 2005 analysis from the Department of Health and Human Services.
Another 4.3 million are eligible for free or heavily subsidized government health insurance (again, either Medcaid or SCHIP), but have not yet signed up. While these people are not pre-enrolled in a health insurance program and are therefore counted as uninsured, if they were to go to an emergency room (or a free clinic), they would be automatically enrolled in that program by the provider after receiving medical care. There's an interesting philosophical question that I will skip about whether they are, in fact, uninsured, if technically they are protected from risk.
Another 9.3 million are non-citizens. I cannot break that down into documented vs. undocumented citizens.
Another 10.1 million do not fit into any of the above categories, and they have incomes more than 3X the poverty level. For a single person that means their income exceeded $30,600 in 2007, when the median income for a single male was $33,200 and for a female, $21,000. For a family of four, if your income was more than 3X the poverty level in 2007, you had $62,000 of income or more, and you were above the national median.
Of the remaining 15.6 million uninsured, 5 million are adults between ages 18 and 34 and without kids.
The remaining 10.6 million do not fit into any of the above categories, so they are:
U.S. citizens;
with income below 300% of poverty;
not on or eligible for a taxpayer-subsidized health insurance program;
and not a childless adult between age 18 and 34.
OK, Indythinker,
Let's assume your figures are all correct, although you cited a source for only the first of them (and by the way, SCHIP is for children who are not surveyed in the census).
Speaking of census counts, since the Republican Party steadfastly refuses to allow the Census Bureau to use sampling methods to conduct the census, poor people are actually under-represented. Using census data to draw conclusions about the number of people in poverty is suspect, at best, as getting census -takers into neighborhoods where they live is very difficult. But what the heck, I'll give you that one.
When you cite people as being automatically enrolled as soon as they show up in an emergency room you are being disingenuous, at best. That's not the way hospitals work. If they show up and say they are not insured, the hospital doesn't ask for an income statement. Instead, the hospital will tell them they are repsonsible for making their own arrangements and perhaps will tell them that they may be eligible for government assistance.
Non-citizens - and you assume they are here illegally? Or are you saying that it's ok for not-citizens who are here legally to be without health insurance? Does having a green card make you any less uninsured?
I assume you're saying that anyone who has an income above three times the poverty level can afford medical insurance, but chooses not to buy it. That's just not true. If you're single and making $600/wk in Las Vegas you're probably taking home about $475 after income, Social Security, and Medicare taxes. Even if you're sharing an apartment with someone, you're probably paying about $80 - 100 a week for rent, another $75 a week for utilities, and another $75 a week for food. Add in clothing, transportation, and other expenses and you'll be lucky to have $30 or $40 a week left over. How can you pay for medical insurance on that, even if your employer covers half of it? You might be able to afford the premiums, but certainly not the deductibles.
Continued...
I'll illustrate with a story.
I have cooks workng at my restaurants making $15 an hour. That's $600 per week. I see their paychecks, and they amount to less than $1,000 every two weeks. Our company offers medical insurance that we subsidize. Two years ago approximztely 45 of our nearly 300 hourly empolyees had the company insurance (I won't suggest that all of the remaining 250 couldn't afford it; some were covered by spouses). The premium for a single employee to join the HMO offered (the less expensive of the HMO and PPO options) was $350 per month, or about $85 per week. That's $85 per week out of a $450 paycheck. That did not include the $20 co-pay for every office visit or the $10 co-pay for every prescription, or the $50 co-pay for every visit to a specialist.
About two years ago, one of those 45 became seriously ill and spent a number of weeks in the hospital. The nature of her illness was such that her medications - which she would now have to take forever - would run nearly $30,000 per year. Our insurance company couldn't drop her alone, so they dropped our entire group. All of our 45 employees, my boss, myself, and the 18 managers that answered to me were dropped.
We found a new insurer (at a higher cost, of course - that single employee is now paying $400 a month with higher co-pays), but the woman who is sick couldn't get covered because she had....you guessed it, a pre-existing condition.
Now let's look at it froma strictly dollars and cents standpoint. We know that Medicare is less expensive than private insurance. We also know that there is such a thing as economies of scale. If we put everyone on Medicare we will automatically spend less than we are spending now on a per patient basis. We will eliminate SCHIP and Medicaid. We will also eliminate things like small businesses having their entire groups dropped because one or two individuals make the group unprofitable.
We will also eliminate caps on benefits so that people don't lose their coverage in the event of a catastrophic illness.
Are you aware, Indythinker, that over half of all personal bankruptcies in America were casued at least in part by medical emergencies? Would it also suprise you to know that of that number over 75% had medical insurance? What good is an insurance system that doesn't protect us?
I know, I know, all the folks on the right will say that I'm just trying to get them to pay for my medical care, but that is just not true. We are all already bearing the cost of the unisured as well as the insured. Putting everyone on Medicare would mean that we could insure everyone without having to also underwrite the hundreds of billions of dollars in profits the medical insurance industry makes each year.
I think I'm going with the retarded Republicans on this one. I prefer to support excessive profits for the greedy pig insurance companies and I happen to really like money grubbing whore doctors.
Also, I like being called Skippy but I prefer hyphenated names - how about Skippy-Kennedy-Smith. Or maybe Skippy-Rodham-something. You decide.
JohnF:
The info you seek on the uninsured in America is available with only a few minutes of research on the internet. One place to start is the Vimo Research Group Brief by Erik Espe, MBA, from 2007. Google it and see what you think.
JohnF - your points are valid complaints about the current system. It needs repairing. A public option system will soon be a single-payer system. Will you be OK if every hospital in the U.S. is just like the current VA hospitals? I won't be.
Fix what's wrong but don't destroy what's right with health care.
Mr. letter writer... You write "...there are others who think nothing has to be done."
I have not read one post or heard one person state that "nothing needs to be done." I have read numerous times that changes need to be made in our health care system, but DO NOT REPLACE IT WITH A GOVERNMENT RAN SYSTEM!!!
I am not opposed to a "public option" as long as it is thoroughly debated BEFORE passage.
One more thing for the writer who states: "America has chosen to be a country of factions."
No America did not chose to be so divided on this issue. Our fine elected officials in D.C. has rammed several bills through Congress without the transparency that was promised. Then they tried it again with HR-3200, but this time, the people rose up and said enough is enough. Lets debate this legislation before it is passed.
If Congress was doing their job, they would have slowed down the process and allowed extensive debate on HR-3200. Instead, they tried to rush it through without debate.
Americans have finally woke up and taking an interest in what goes on in Washington D.C.
JohnF,
Are you saying that you (your boss?) charge your $15/hr employees 85$ a week for their health insurance? And then you say that your goal is not to have the tax payers pay your employees health insurance premiums (in effect)? If you are charging your employees half of the actual cost and have 300 employees ...
If my math is correct your business stands to save 1 million/year in health care costs. I don't imagine you stand to suffer a 1 million dollar increase in taxes after universal Medicare is enacted, do you?
If I missed something please correct me. If not, it is hard to get your argument that your in it for them. Why not pay their entire insurance premium now if you are so worried about their cost? You could just raise the price of the meals to make up the difference.
Also, I would tell your employees that generic meds at Wallmart are $4.00 each.
JohnF... I hear you. So do countless others on the other side of the aisle. What you should be hearing is not NOISE, but our attempts to fix what is not working fairly, without sticking it to any one group of people. I too am a small business owner who has faced some of your same issues but only for my family as my subcontractors were insured by their spouse. I get the whole too expensive bit...believe me I get it.
From my perspective as a small business owner I would prefer to see insurance become more competitive, which would make rates go down, making insurance easier to obtain for many. BUT... there are those folks who would rather pay HUGE amounts for a car payment before even considering health insurance. That's a big issue for me. Health insurance has to be a personal priority before it becomes a national travesty. I know realtors who made over 200K who did not have insurance. It's that ridiculous. So maybe we should make some form of insurance mandatory like auto insurance. This would address the bancrupcy (sp?) issues to some degree. Along with removing caps, limiting premium increases, and tort reform (which you are right has not worked as well as we hoped), plus a few more things like preexisting conditions.
As to your comment on I.A's my only thoughts are it is not an American problem. We have enough on our plates with insurance reform without trying to take care of every 3rd world country. I would hope that even would agree with that!
"their very real death panels and the excessive salaries of the money grubbing whore doctors..."
Question O mighty feathered friend??????
Do you talk like this to your Dr.when you are in the examination room?
If you do I'll bet you get a real charge out of your digitial postate examination.
Opponents of health insurance reform hide behind the numbers. They won't admit they are shilling for the greedy insurance companies and PHARMA making eoutrageous profitrs on the backs of the public.
They refuse to admit that this nation has met it's modern day challenges by fashioning a system that has private and public institutions serving its needs in a uniquely "American" co-existing relationship.
Instead critics choose to play down the seriousness of the problem by pointing out that the ranks of the uninsured include many people who have chosen to forgo coverage or are only temporarily uninsured: workers who could afford to pay but decline their employers' coverage; the self-employed who choose not to pay for more expensive individual coverage; healthy young people who prefer not to buy insurance they may never need; people who are changing jobs; poor people who are eligible for Medicaid but have failed to enroll. And then there are the illegal immigrants, a favorite target of critics.
All that is true, to some degree. But the implication -- that lack of insurance is no big deal and surely not worth spending a trillion dollars to fix -- is not.
No matter how you slice the numbers, there are tens of millions of people without insurance, often for extended periods, and there is good evidence that lack of insurance is harmful to their health.
Scores of well-designed studies have shown that uninsured people are more likely than insured people to die prematurely, to have their cancers diagnosed too late, or to die from heart failure, a heart attack, a stroke or a severe injury. The Institute of Medicine estimated in 2004 that perhaps 18,000 deaths a year among adults could be attributed to lack of insurance.
The oft-voiced suggestion that the uninsured can always go to an emergency room also badly misunderstands what is happening. By the time they do go, many of these people are much sicker than they would have been had insurance given them access to routine and preventive care. Emergency rooms are costly, and if uninsured patients cannot pay for their care, the hospital or the government ends up footing the bill.
With just a little research and clear thinking they would acknowledge that our citizens are best served when we combine the best of what the private and public institutions offer.
Turn your lives over to the government, the stupidest people on the planet. If you want the government in charge of anything you do you are a complete fool. Government sucks!
The critics continue to argue that there are fewer uninsured than the studies indicate. So why bother,they say? We should wait instead of reforming our broken system.
They ignore that health care reform has been debated since Harry Truman made his first proposals over 60 years ago.
Isn't 60 years long enough?
Cynics ask how many uninsured people are really facing health care risks?
The most frequently cited estimate, 45.7 million in 2007, comes from an annual census survey.
Some or even many of those people may have only temporarily lost or given up coverage, but even that exposes them to medical and financial risk.
The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality in the Department of Health and Human Services estimates that 28 million people were uninsured for all of 2005 and 2006 and that 18.5 million of them were uninsured for at least four straight years. That does not sound like a "temporary" problem.
Indythinker fails to recognize that if nothing is done to slow current trends, the number of people in this country without insurance or with inadequate coverage will continue to spiral upward. It is also by no means cost-free. Any nation as rich as ours ought to guarantee health coverage for all of its residents.
Various studies give us this data in spite of the figures having some overlap:
THE WORKING POOR: The Kaiser Family Foundation estimates that about two-thirds of the uninsured -- 30 million people -- earn less than twice the poverty level, or about $44,000 for a family of four. It also estimates that more than 80 percent of the uninsured come from families with full-time or part-time workers.
THE BETTER OFF: About nine million uninsured people, according to census data, come from households with incomes of $75,000 or more. Critics say that is plenty of money for them to buy their own insurance. But many of these people live in "households" that are groups of low-wage roommates or extended families living together. Their combined incomes may reach $75,000, but they cannot pool their resources to buy an insurance policy to cover the whole group.
Still, about 4.7 million uninsured people live in families that earn four times the poverty level -- or $88,000 for a family of four -- the dividing line that many experts use to define who can afford to buy their own insurance.
YOUNG ADULTS: Some 13 million young adults between the ages of 19 and 29 lack coverage. The Kaiser foundation estimates that only 10 percent are college graduates, and only 5 percent have incomes above $60,000 a year, while half have family incomes below $16,000 a year. They would be helped by reform by providing subsidized coverage for the poor and an exchange where individuals can buy cheaper insurance than is now available.
ALREADY ELIGIBLE: Some 11 million of the poorest people, mostly low-income children and their parents, are thought to be eligible for public insurance programs but have failed to enroll. They will presumably be scooped up by the mandate under reform bills that everyone obtain health insurance.
THE UNDERINSURED: The Commonwealth Fund estimates that 25 million Americans who had health insurance in 2007 had woefully inadequate policies with high deductibles and restrictions that stuck them with large amounts of uncovered expenses. Many postponed needed treatments or went into debt to pay medical bills.
NON-CITIZENS: Some 9.7 million of the uninsured are not citizens; of those, more than six million may be illegal immigrants, according to informed estimates. None of the pending bills would cover them.
The one argument they have is that we all should be afraid. If we fear enough we can never fix our broken health care system. They advocate to deliver the status quo so the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and our nation falls further behind in caring for all its people.
pmmart: The "Bird" quit going to a doctor after he received his lobotomy. Then he went a veterinarian and was neutered. So now he listens to Harry and all is well.
I don't know freeandinformed... By reading you post, it appears to me that the "working poor" might need help in getting on Medicaid. This might be accomplished by changing the threshold to acquire Medicaid.
The other group that you do not mention is the people with preexisting conditions. I think they need help the most and maybe a "reinsurance fund" to cover the preexisting conditions can be added as a rider to their existing conditions.
Back in the 90's, the state of Hawaii removed coverage for Hurricanes from all homeowners policies. This made every homeowner's insurance go down. Then the State started a special Hurricane Insurance fund using reinsurance. All homeowners who wanted coverage for Hurricanes paid into this fund and received hurricane coverage. As I recall, after about ten years there was enough reserves built up in the hurricane fund, that the rates were greatly reduced.
The above could be accomplished without replacing our existing medical care system with one ran by the U.S. Government.
Just a thought.
What I don't see addressed by free and others is the areas of personal responsibility. I think a lot of people who are opposed to the governments take over of insurance/health care is that we oppose giving every one everything at any cost with no accountability.
Many lament the plight of the uninsured. The stats on the "groups" of uninsured can be debated. Every day we see a story or post about single cases of an unfortunate person who is having a bad time because of lack of insurance.
What you do not see are the legion of uninsured that are that way because of their own doing. Bad habits, simply uninterested, rather spend their money on other things, refuse to work, etc. None of that bothers or concerns the crowd who won't be paying for all this free care.
Look at Sweden's post. The employer pays a "substantial" tax so that the whole country can have insurance. Small business people like us do not want to subsidize the entire country's health care. JohnF may think he'll come out ahead but don't bet on it.
I don't want to pay for the 3 pack a day smoker who drops $450.00/month on cigs instead of insurance. I don't want to cover the alcoholic or drug addict that, no matter how much insurance you give them they still don't go to the doctor and then spend months in the hospital once they fall apart.
Think about this. One of the largest insurers in Las Vegas who covers a lot of people in the hotels has, as their biggest problem, getting their INSURED members to go to the doctor for preventative care. They get killed because so many forgo prevention that by the time they are diagnosed with an illness in the emergency room they end up in the hospital for a week. It is simplistic and naive to think that you are going to solve things JUST by handing out free insurance.
My point is that it is not so simple to just wave a magic wand, and, just because you have an idea or even if your heart is in the right place, solve a problem as big as this.
I wonder how many people who want to provide coverage to 47 million uninsured Americans (whomever you think they are) will actually be out of pocket more than they are now if this were enacted. You "free"?
pbim72 and other anti-government proponents never admit that each of us who are free thinkers and informed recognize we are already paying for the unusured and the ill or disabled when they go to the emergency rooms. Each family in America pay $1,000 out of pocket for those to cover the uninsured.
These cynics won't admit that they already receive government services and are happy to take them as what they describe for others as "hand outs".
Every time they turn on their water and expect to get clean water or breath clean air or ride on our highways, or expect the first responders to assist them in an emergency, or open a package of inspected food to feed their families, or expect the National Guard or Military, FBI, CIA, or FEMA to protect them, we all are paying for it.
If they sent their children to a public K-12 school or public university we all pay for it. Every time they get their electric power from the hydo electric power built by our "bad government", they take the benefit without a thought. Every time one of their own receives Medicare or Social Security benefits they are served from a "big bad government". Isn't it interesting they take this benefit from a single payer health care program they tell us to fear. When we face epidemics such as the recent swine flu, and the benefit from the distribution of immunizations by the Center for Disease Control, they welcome the care but tell us to fear the "big bad government".
Free thinking and informed citizens see their hypocracy for what it is. That's why we are fighting for real health care reform with a public option and a real choice offered to all Americans regardless of gender, race, economic status or age. We understand that is what a civil and humane society does for it's people.
We delivered on Civil Rights, Woman rights, Social Security, Medicare and so much more when our nation met those challenges in the past. And we will deliver health insurance reform over these same cynical and negative voices today.
Sorry to inform you, but HR-3200 is going nowhere, and there will be no meaningful health reform without tort reform. It will not contain a single payer system and if there is a public option, it better be just that and will have to compete with health insurance companies.
Most of all, there will not be something for nothing.
free:
Look, I am not an anti government cynic as you imply. The government is good for lots of things.
Now:If a patient shows up at one of the 10 or 11 for profit hospitals in this city without insurance who pays for their health care now? You? Me?
Don't the share holders of these for profit hospitals eat the cost?
Cost Shifting?? How?
The insured patietns can not have the uninsured patients cost shifted to them because private insurance contracts are negotiate with fixed reimbursement in advance and Medicare pays a fixed amount for the admission regardless of the length of stay.
See, this is the information that you probably don't know about that people NEED to fully understand this debate.
When the taxpayer's are on the hook for this bill then the coorporations that run hospitals are going to love you for it. Right now, THEY foot the bill. You'll be on the hook when government is paying this bill.
You want to talk about fear? Here's my fear.
As a small business person my partner and I spend about $100,000.00/year for our employee's health insurance. We pay the full cost of their insurance with no cost to them.
The truth is that the take over crowd's untinate goal is universal health care like Canada or Europe. Of that there can be no debate.
My fear is that, as bad and expensive as the health care/insurance industry is now, it will be more expensive after.
If you can convince/guarentee me that small businesses like ours won't be saddled with a bigger bill than we have now I'd be more likely to consider it.
But, if you saw what Sweeden said in his post, thats unlikely to happen. Who's going to pay the bill? Only about 100 million people pay taxes now?
The uninsured arn't going to pay for it. The poor won't. The illegals won't. The 18-35 crowd who won't buy insurance now won't. Will you?
"Indythinker fails to recognize that if nothing is done to slow current trends..."
I have said over and over and over and over... that I am all for reform. I am also for personal responsibility. I am NOT for government intervention to the point where we have to ask which potty to use. Yes we WERE a rich country, but at the moment, I don't think there is anyone living here who would seriously make that claim. Or is being in debt to China perfectly sensible to you?
So, say what you will Free and Informed, but at least be fair and quote me accurately. Because it's becoming an unpleasant trend amongst our more liberal blogger's that you only see every third word. A single payer insurance plan is not a viable option. PERIOD. No one will ever convince me that it won't cost the planet. And, frankly, I think I already pay enough in taxes. And, I pay for my own medical insurance too as I am the employer. So if everyone who could step up actually would, then we would really see who needs a helping hand, couldn't we? It's about priorities. And, for those of you who can't stomach capitalism...get used to it. It's gonna be around for a long, long time. That's what makes America so cool.
And forgive me for being snarky, but Uddeboda don't you have like a country or something to go to? And, if you don't like America, which you obviously don't, maybe you could leave the blogging to those of us who actually have a vested interest in legislation that might be passed. I don't know of any other blogger who continually bashes another country as you do. I can't tell you how offensive it it to "this" American.
I may be cynical and negative but you are in Lala land with your love of government and it's performance.
The CIA? Your kidding, right? I'll bet you were among the first to call for CIA investigations.
The public school system?? Now I know your kidding. You really want to put that up as a shinning example of the acomplishments of government?
FEMA? Really? Do I have to outline the waste and incompetence during Katrina?
Social Security? Now my sides are splitting from laughter. Where is the money for this program? It was supposed to be in a trust fund. Hello!! It's gone. It doesn't exist. It is funded by the monthly taxes from todays workers.
Oh. Your biggest whopper. Medicare. On the verge of insolvency. I mean get real. If your not employeed by a government somewhere I'll eat my hat.
Sorry, free. Forgot you're a senior citizen. I meant, "if you aren't retired from a government job....I'll eat my hat".
Of course you are up for a government run halth care plan. You won't be paying for it wiil you?
listen up boys and girls...
the anti-reform clowns on this board have vested interests...
they are frauds...
complete and total frauds...
biasedthinker...
she is a health care professional...
she is afraid that change will hurt her business.....
in addition...
she has a sick child...
she is afraid that change will hurt her child...
pbim...
is a money grubbing whore doctor...
he talks a bunch of crap about his own health care costs...
but in reality he doesn't want us to drive down the cost of health care because it will effect his gravy train...
he is a fraud...
a total and complete fraud...
houstonjac...
is on medicare...
got that...
he is on the public option...
and yet he rails against it time after time on these boards...
he doesn't want others to get what he has...
what a fraud...
what a total and complete fraud!!!
listen to birdie...
it is very simple...
you either support the public optiuon which is the very best means to reduce the cost of health care...
or...
you support excessive profits of the greedy pig insurance companies and their very real death panels and the excessive salaries of the money grubbing whore doctors...
that is it...
everything else is noise...
period!!!
end of story!!!
Birdiedreamin......
Thank you for your assessment. I agree with you! It's actually, as you said, pretty simple. Everything else is just noise....right now, pretty loud noise.
The people who don't want change have the coverage they want and they're afraid that they will lose that coverage, or they will have to pay more for what they currently have......
Also, we have people out there who make their living currently in the medical field and they are afraid that they will make less if reform come about...
They have no real proof of that coming true but they continue to believe that....
The insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, and such groups as the AMA are fighting any type of change tooth and nail...
The AMA has controlled the number of doctors entering the medical field for way too long, and we all know that by limiting the number of doctors coming out of medical school each year, the cost of health care stays high....It has little to do with "supply and demand" in terms of the number of doctors that we currently have in the field. It's all about greed and huge profits....
Some people would have you believe that all we need is to change just a few things and everything will be fine and dandy.....If it was only that simple!
The system is very broken and a small change here and a small change there will do very little to solve the major problems that the system has....
Fix it now or face a situation down the road that will be unfixable.....
pbim72, indythinker,
My company's insurance company charges us $750 per month to cover a single full-time employee. We pick up $400 of that each month. We find it to be a worthwhile investment in that it helps us keep employee turnover low. There are about 45 employees out of 300 who currently carry the insurance, so our company spends $18,000 per month on employee health insurance to cover about 15% of our work force. That's $216,000 per year. We do not expect that the creation of a public option or Medicare for all would lower our taxes. Quite the contrary. But if we did have Medicare for all we wouldn't have to pay that two hundred grand.
How much would our increased taxes be? I don't know, and I do agree that a universal health care system would, in all likelihood, tax employers. I can't, however, imagine a universal medical care system that wouldn't tax everybody.
You see, your contention that not everyone pays taxes is correct if you only look at income taxes. But everyone with a job pays Medicare and Social Security taxes.
Imagine you're one of the millions who are paying Medicare taxes right now but can't afford medical insurance for yourself, like roughly half of the people who work for me. How is it fair that your hard work subsidizes health care for the elderly, but we're telling you you're going to have to wait until you're 65 to see a doctor? Why can't we tell all those people that by paying a little more in taxes they could be covered by the very system they're already subsidizing?
JohnF: I have to respect your honesty. First of all, I know you had that employee that caused you to have to get new insurance but $750/mo seems excessive even by current standards.
It is tempting to go along with you. I just don't trust politicians of either stripe to do this right. I'd have to come out ahead as we pay about 95% of our employees insurance. Plus, I can't get over my heart burn about providing such a valuable service to those who would refuse to contribute to the system either monetarily or by responsible behavior.
I know. The big picture right?
Let's cancel unemployment, medicare qand social security as well as VA for these Glen Beck and Hannity geeks that don't like goverment