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Cheney, Bush helped al-Qaida regroup
Thursday, Sept. 3, 2009 | 2:03 a.m.
Ex-Vice President Dick Cheney still thinks his policies prevented another attack on American soil.
Did Mr. Cheney forget how united our country was and how much world support we had when we invaded Afghanistan and routed the Taliban? Did he forget that we had al-Qaida and the Taliban on the run when he and his partner, then-President George W. Bush, decided to give the terrorists a gift by putting the full force of our military into Iraq?
All al-Qaida members needed to do was head for their caves and regroup, recruit and watch while Iraqi insurgents slowly destroyed all of our unity and support.
Does Mr. Cheney honestly believe al-Qaida, at this point, would be stupid enough to launch another attack on our soil and give us back all that unity and world support?
We are still in Iraq and, because of a gap in time, our mission in Afghanistan is much harder. Meanwhile, al-Qaida and the Taliban are alive and kicking and most likely are stronger than ever. Thanks a lot, Mr. Cheney!
I’m sure another attack is being planned. If and when it happens, I hope the people will remember that Bush and Cheney had our enemy in their gun sights and then turned their weapons in a different direction.
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Mr. Reitz, the letter writer, asks a question...
"Does Mr. Cheney honestly believe al-Qaida, at this point, would be stupid enough to launch another attack on our soil and give us back all that unity and world support?"
...and then he answers it himself...
"I'm sure another attack is being planned."
...I'm glad you agree with VP Cheney. And just for the record, it's not just that VP Cheney thinks his policies prevented another attack on American soil, it's a matter of record that his policies, including enhanced interrogations of terrorists, prevented attacks on American soil.
Thank you, Mr. VP, for your service to our country.
enteaser,
This disagrees with your uninformed opinion:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/opinio...
September 3, 2009
EDITORIAL
Dick Cheney's Version
After the C.I.A. inspector general's report on prisoner interrogation was released last week, former Vice President Dick Cheney settled into his usual seat on Fox News to express his outrage -- not at the illegal and immoral behavior laid out in the report, of course, but at the idea that anyone would object to torturing prisoners. He was especially vexed that the Obama administration was beginning an investigation.
In Mr. Cheney's view, it is not just those who followed orders and stuck to the interrogation rules set down by President George Bush's Justice Department who should be sheltered from accountability. He said he also had no problem with those who disobeyed their orders and exceeded the guidelines.
It's easy to understand Mr. Cheney's aversion to the investigation that Attorney General Eric Holder ordered last week. On Fox, Mr. Cheney said it was hard to imagine it stopping with the interrogators. He's right.
The government owes Americans a full investigation into the orders to approve torture, abuse and illegal, secret detention, as well as the twisted legal briefs that justified those policies. Congress and the White House also need to look into illegal wiretapping and the practice of sending prisoners to other countries to be tortured.
Mr. Cheney was at the center of each of these insults to this country's Constitution, its judicial system and its bedrock democratic values. To defend himself, he offers a twisted version of history:
He says Mr. Bush's Justice Department determined that the "enhanced interrogation techniques" ordered by the president were legal under American law and international treaties like the Geneva Conventions.
In reality, those opinions were based on a corrupt and widely discredited legal analysis cooked up after the White House had already decided to use long-banned practices like waterboarding. Mr. Cheney was an architect of the decision to "get tough" with prisoners, as the bureaucrats often say to soften the outrage of this policy.
He insists the inspector general's findings were "completely reviewed" by the Justice Department and that any follow-up investigation would be improper and unnecessary.
continued:
In reality, Mr. Bush's attorney general, Alberto Gonzales, did not appoint an independent investigator after receiving the inspector general's report, which was completed in 2004. The Justice Department decided there was only one narrow case worth pursuing, involving a civilian contractor -- hardly a surprise from a thoroughly politicized department whose top officials set the very rules they were supposed to be judging. Mr. Gonzales's team did not look into allegations that some interrogators broke those rules. Mr. Cheney may not care about that, but Mr. Holder rightly does.
Mr. Cheney claims that waterboarding and other practices widely considered to be torture or abuse "were absolutely essential" in stopping another terrorist attack on the United States after Sept. 11, 2001.
Mr. Cheney is right when he says detainees who were subject to torture and abuse gave up valuable information. But the men who did the questioning flatly dispute that it was duress that moved them to do so.
Deuce Martinez, the C.I.A. officer who interrogated Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, engineer of the 9/11 mass murders, said he used traditional interrogation methods, and not the infliction of pain and panic. And, in an article on the Times Op-Ed page, Ali Soufan, a former F.B.I. agent who oversaw the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, another high-ranking terrorist, denounced "the false claims" about harsh interrogations. Mr. Soufan said Mr. Zubaydah talked before he was subjected to waterboarding and other abuse. He also said that "using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions."
Every week, it seems, new disclosures about this sordid history dribble out. This week, Physicians for Human Rights analyzed what the inspector general's report said about the involvement of C.I.A. physicians and psychiatrists in the abuse of prisoners. It said they not only monitored torture, like waterboarding, but also kept data on the prisoners' reaction in ways that "may amount to human experimentation."
Getting at the truth is not going to be easy. The C.I.A. destroyed evidence -- videotapes of interrogations -- and is now refusing to release its records of the questioning of its prisoners. It also is asking the courts to keep secret the orders Mr. Bush gave authorizing the interrogations, and the original Justice Department memos concluding that they were legal.
Americans need much more than glimpses of the truth. They should not have to decide whether to believe former interrogators, whom they do not know, or Mr. Cheney, who did not hesitate while in office to mislead them when it suited his political aims.
Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company
"....al-Qaida, at this point, would be stupid enough to launch another attack on our soil and give us back all that unity and world support?"
Let's give al-Qaida a seat in the United Nations and the whole world will love us more...
Hey, the New York Times is posting here. IT STINKS
I fear Al-Gore and climate alarmists much more than al-Qaida. The goal of al-Qaida was to reduce our standard of living---who knew that they would regroup in the form of evangelical-enviros and the political hack who profits off it.
911.....Sun letter writer has OD on koolaid.
Hey nance,
When I do drive around, I still don't use any gas. It's like once every month or two, but when I head to town or one of my girlfriends, my exhaust smells like french fries. It's that recycled cooking oil from McDonalds!
Don't ya just hate wise guys?!
Livin on public land, drivin on vegetable oil, heatin with the sun, makin juice with a set up of stuff that's one light ray away from an electron flow, catching the news and internet vitriol from a satelite, poopin on the playa...it just ain't fair huh?
LOL
w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer...
are bold faced liars...
they started a war based on lies...
over 4,000 american soldiers dead...
over $1 trillion wasted...
do not believe a single word the comes out of their mouths...
they hurt this country very badly...
it will take a generation to recover!!!
And lets not forget what the peanut farmer, Carter did for this country. Inflation at 18%, deficit at an all time high like Obama has it now, etc, etc. It took a Republican to fix the problems who changed the tax code down and as a result put millions to work in private enterprises, not in gov't make work jobs. A generation lost and we need a republican to fix it.
Recovery remains a fuzzy notion. How does one recover from an assault on intelligence that was our pres?
How do we recover from the understanding that our Veep was clearly drivin for profits from halliburton cronies, Bush was asleep in goat land from way too much coke and booze during those formative college years but his daddy kept bailin him out of jam after jam until he bought the best part-time gig in Texas, the gov's mansion.
Maybe we'll recover, birdie; maybe we'll just realize this experiment in government is way too open to wool being pulled over our naive eyes to keep going. They lied, tricked, cajoled and murdered their way into history.
brownln4: A Republican REALLY fixed our economy recently. Unfortunately his stimulis package only involved the rich and weapons manufacturers.
I had lunch with Jimma Carter in Bali when he was in his seventies. He was still doing the right thing, standing up for the downtrodden, checking voters and making sure some semblance of righteousness was prevailing.
When he took over from the Nixon-Ford boys, our country was battling the oil crisis. We stood in gas lines hours long. He put on his sweater and told us to conserve, invested in energy conservation programs and solar technology that spawned our current(!) renaissance in energy awareness while dealing with the hostage situation. Remember they took a bunch of Americans in their revolt against the policies of Nixon-Ford. Go ahead and blame him. He's almost dead and probably doesn't care how someone like you might remember his efforts to make this a better world.
Morning, Gordon,
Can you tell me who the Republican is that you mentioned "...his stimulus package..."
Sorry, I forgot...
bush got a national guard job and cheney got a 5 time deferment; stop supporting these frauds, the word coward defines who these two people are.look at the mess they left. bin laden is still on the loose and american troops are dying in afghanistan. nice job bush/cheney.
Gordon - did you ever get a job from a poor person? You have to have, as you call it, rich people to create jobs for others. Its called enterprise. And as those workers create income, they in turn spend their money and create further opportunities for others. Will someone please explain to me why many of these posters have it in for anyone who has some money???
hey enteaser, cheney served his country, with how many bogus deferments from military service while my fellow servicemen died in vietnam. cheney is crap
I know quite a few young who are/were in the National Guard and I know others who got deferments. This does not make them frauds or cowards.
At what time are the "Bush Haters" going to realize that Bush is not in the White House anymore.
Oh, by the way, Afghanistan is Obama's war now.
"Will someone please explain to me why many of these posters have it in for anyone who has some money???"
Part of being a liberal is jealousy over your neighbor if he makes one dollar more than you.
"Oh, by the way, Afghanistan is Obama's war now."
Yup, Bush/Cheney failed to finish the job in Afghanistan, too. Thanks for reminding us.
Afghanistan is our war. Kids from Oregon, Texas, Missouri, Michigan and Florida die there daily. Legs that were born in New York get blown off the bodies.
Attributing this death sentence to Mr. Obama when he stood up against significant odds as a Senator and said basicly, "No George. I don't trust you!" is the typical Republican denial of why we're wasting tons of dough, American treasure and our much needed energy.
Rusty - thank you. I thought jealousy was the answer, but wanted someone to confirm it for me. So, does that mean when these libs get some money, they will become conservatives???
Airware, I'd like to say thank you for the perspective.
James Earl Carter III has served his country, over the course of his lifetime, about as honorably & admirably as anyone in my lifetime. I know a person or two who post here who will disparage that, but it is an opinion shared by many.
People in general need to learn about "cause & effect."
You stated, appropriately, that the Nixon/Ford years made Jimmy's cleanup job a dirty one, and he gave it his best.
Likewise, Obama faces the challenges of cleanup following the Bush/Cheney years.
For example; If I totally screw up my personal finances, and then bring in a professional money manager to help me out, it will still take me YEARS to get out from underneath the mess I made. Similarly, it will take the U.S. YEARS to get out from underneath THIS mess. Why is that hard for Republicans to deal with and understand?
Is our current President perfect and infallible?
Absolutely not. Is he making some mistakes? Yup.
Should we support him? Absolutely. Do we have a right & obligation as citizens to question policy? Yup. But at the end of the day, there is no band-aid big enough to patch the current mess up quickly. Those folks who want to blame President Obama for that are not being rational.
gmag - you are right about having to clean up a mess and it taking some time. However, when you are broke, you do not keep spending money and buying on credit. You cannot spend your way to prosperity, like the current administration is trying to do. Lets wait, pay the bills we have and put some in the bank for a rainy day, and then, and only then we can start spending on new programs again, like health care.
brown that sounds like more complacent ignorance. Health care costs are out of control. They are bankrupting our economy and bankrupting American families.
We already pay 16%+ of our GDP in health care costs and that's rising every day. How much do we need to spend until you guys wake up and realize we have to do something?
It's that lazy, "let's wait" attitude that shows us that the Republicans are completely out-of-touch with the majority of Americans.
brownln4, I appreciate your comment.
By and large, I agree.
Health care reform, however, is ABOUT SAVING $$$
in addition to making sure basic health care in a civilized society is available to all it's members, which is a tenet I subscribe too vehemently.
mschaffer,
FYI, here is the link to the Wash Post story that proves my and VP Cheney's point...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...
How a Detainee Became An Asset
Sept. 11 Plotter Cooperated After Waterboarding
By Peter Finn, Joby Warrick and Julie Tate
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, August 29, 2009
After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."
regnar magnusson: the current health care scenario is about implementing more government control over our lives. I suggest that you shouldn't subscribe to anything "too vehemently." Everything in moderation, skippy.
edgewise - from the latest polls I've seen, it appears Americans are more concerned about the rising deficit at this point, than health care. For anyone that needs care, its available now. Like I said before, you get what you pay for. We have the best quality care, and yes its expensive, but its worth it. One true story from a socialized medicine country of someone dying while waiting for gov't approval for a procedure or test, is one story too many. It does not work.Yes, there can be improvements made to the current situation, but I think we are swinging the pendulum too far the other way all at once. Why can't this be done in small increments? Why all at once when there is no proof that it will work or will not break the bank, which is already cracked??
all i can say...
thus the phrase...
retarded republicans!!!
MICHAEL;
It's RAGNAR. sheesh.
And do not call me skippy.
Got that?
Oh enteaser, you have got to be kidding me, right?
That WaPo puff piece is the definition of tortured journalism. The IG report cannot detail a SINGLE INSTANCE when torture elicited information. Your WaPo piece does not have a SINGLE on-the-record source that corroborates Cheney's fairytale.
"What makes the Post's breathless vindication of torture all the more journalistically corrupt is that the document on which it principally bases these claims -- the just-released 2004 CIA Inspector General Report -- provides no support whatsoever for the view that torture produced valuable intelligence, despite the fact that it was based on the claims of CIA officials themselves. Ironically, nobody has done a better job this week of demonstrating how true that is than the Post's own Greg Sargent -- who, in post after post this week -- dissected the IG Report to demonstrate that it provides no evidence for Cheney's claims that torture helped obtain valuable intelligence. "
"That the released documents provide no support for Cheney's claims was so patently clear that many news articles contained unusually definitive statements reporting that to be so. The New York Times reported that the documents Cheney claimed proved his case "do not refer to any specific interrogation methods and do not assess their effectiveness." ABC News noted that "the visible portions of the heavily redacted reports do not indicate whether such information was obtained as a result of controversial interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding." TPM's Zachary Roth documented that "nowhere do they suggest that that information was gleaned through torture," while The Washington Independent's Spencer Ackerman detailed that, if anything, the documents prove "that non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important information the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA's interrogations." As Sargent reported, even Bush's loyal Terrorism adviser, Frances Fargos Townsend, admitted that the IG Report provides no basis for what the Post today is ludicrously implying."
"At best, it's nothing more than a statement of obvious chronology, not causation. Nonetheless -- faithfully employing the same semantic game Cheney used to obfuscate chronology and causation, which Sargent first highlighted -- The Post loudly and unmistakably suggests that it was the torture that caused the waterfall of life-saving intelligence, and repeatedly grants anonymity to "intelligence officials" to claim this is so, notwithstanding the complete absence of any evidence for such claims and the ample evidence, as the Post's own Sargent documented, proving this to be untrue."
torture, torture, torture... I am going to blow cigar smoke in your face... torture, torture, torture... And the name calling continues...
sorry larry, cheney is a coward, you may know alot of people who got deferments but majority are not worthy of wearing a uniform. alot of my fellow servicemen never had a chance to live a full life while as-ho--- like dickie send more to thir deaths. if you weren't there, you have NO SAY
"I'm sure another attack is being planned."
Bill Reitz should stop warmongering and fearmongering.
Hey formervegas76,
Personally, I thought Cheney did a good job in the Gulf war and I would never call anybody a coward.
What do you mean by: "if you weren't there, you have NO SAY."
ksand,
Nope...I wouldn't kid you. You don't like that one, try this from the Weekly Standard...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TW...
Analysis of the effectiveness of the CIA interrogation program in documents released with the CIA IG report reveals the following:
"Results from the first al Qaeda HVT interrogated using the aforementioned enhanced techniques, Abu Zubayda, have been outstanding. . . . This has ultimately led to some instances of the US Government being able to neutralize Al Qaeda capabilities worldwide before there was an opportunity for those capabilities to engage in operations harmful to the United States." CIA Business Plan discussing RDI program, page 13, March 7, 2003.
"using the quality of the intelligence as the yardstick, the program has been an absolute success." Interview with a senior CIA officer regarding CIA RDI program, page 1, para 2, July 17, 2003.
"there was no other way CTC [CIA Counterterrorist Center] could have gotten the information they have obtained from the detainees." Interview with a senior CIA officer regarding CIA RDI program, page 1, para 2, July 17, 2003.
"detainees have provided information that led to the arrest of other terrorists Zubadayh provided information that led to the raid that netted Ramzi Bin al-Shibh." Interview with a senior CIA officer regarding CIA RDI program, page 2, para 3, July 17, 2003.
al Nashiri "is providing actionable intelligence" after the use of the enhanced interrogation techniques. Spot report regarding interrogation of al Nashiri, page 1, para 2, Jan. 22, 2003.
...I stand by my statement, it is a matter of public record that the CIA harsh interrogation methods did provide us with usefull information and saved American lives.
To recover from an assault on intelligence you don't elect a semiliterate social worker who has half the intelligence of the previous one. The economy however will never recover because it has been taken over by the parasite class.
Honestly, who gives a crap if these terrorists were tortured. Cigar smoke in their face???
How about a lit cigar in their bum?
You want to end the war you start by taking captured terrorists and putting a bullet in their heads in the town square. It helped in WW II.
Investigating the CIA for torturing our enemies?? What's the point?
It smells like a 'value added' item, this sniffin out of the actual trail of misdeeds of the previous admin.
"Not only did we pull out of a recession, but we nailed the culprits who..." adds to integrity and honesty columns, makes govt. look your friend, and puts lawyers to work.
Funny huh?
oops..
...look LIKE your friend...
sorry
enteaser, now I understand you a whole lot better.
You just quoted a Republican Party talking point memo.
"Agency senior managers believe that lives have been saved as a result of the capture and interrogation of terrorists who were planning attacks, in particular, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, Abu Zubaydah, Hambali, and Al-Nashiri.page 88 para 217."
Does not say that we obtained this information VIA torture, just that information was obtained. Does not prove torture's effectiveness.
""Results from the first al Qaeda HVT interrogated using the aforementioned enhanced techniques, Abu Zubayda, have been outstanding. . . . This has ultimately led to some instances of the US Government being able to neutralize Al Qaeda capabilities worldwide before there was an opportunity for those capabilities to engage in operations harmful to the United States." CIA Business Plan discussing RDI program, page 13, March 7, 2003."
Already debunked: http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/
But really, quoting from republican party talking points? For shame!
"The memos, from 2004 and 2005, do say that some detainees, particularly Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, gave up useful information during debriefing sessions. But nowhere do they suggest that that information was gleaned through torture."
"Indeed, as Spencer Ackerman of the Washington Independent shows, most of the evidence suggests they came through traditional interrogation techniques. As Spencer puts it: "Cheney's public account of these documents have conflated the difference between information acquired from detainees, which the documents present, and information acquired from detainees through the enhanced interrogation program, which they don't."
"It's no wonder that in his response to the memos' release, Cheney is reduced to playing silly semantic games that a reasonably intelligent junior high-schooler could see through. "The documents released Monday," said Cheney in a statement, "clearly demonstrate that the individuals subjected to Enhanced Interrogation Techniques provided the bulk of intelligence we gained about al Qaeda." That's true, but it's totally different from Cheney's earlier claim -- that the documents would show it was the EITs themselves that elicited the information."
"Human rights organizations are making similar points. Gitanjali Gutierrez of the Center for Constitutional Rights said the documents "don't make the case for torture, they only show that the CIA is able to tailor documents to justify its actions after the fact." And Tom Parker of Amnesty International added that the memos "are hardly the slam dunk we had been led to expect. There is little or no supporting evidence in either memo to give substance to the specific claims about impending attacks made by Khalid Shaik Mohammed in highly coercive circumstances."
"Does not say that we obtained this information VIA torture, just that information was obtained. Does not prove torture's effectiveness."
Some people just can not get over using the word torture. torture, torture, torture...
Please don't torture me with any more of your torturing rants about torture.
"99":
Don't you have to get back to your Liberal think tank job sometime soon?
Hypocrite.
I want you to go look up the word satire. Let me know what you find.
Simpleton.
Of coure you are not debatimg the cost of health care as I don't imagine you are in any position to help pay for that which you advocate.
My math is just fine.
YOUR WRONG!!!! (I'm stamping my feat and holding my breath).
If you want your comments to display on page...then one way of doing that is to go into Internet options and disable Javascript.
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pbim72,
Not that you, or your right wing compadres, will understand this but torture gives no reliable evidence, degrades those who use it, and breaks our laws. Is that simple enough for you?
"YOUR [sic] WRONG!!!! (I'm stamping my feat and holding my breath)."
Well, first off, I believe you mean "you're wrong." At least this simpleton knows grade school grammar.
Liberal think tank? Where do you come up with this stuff? I'm self-employed.
"Of coure [sic] you are not debatimg [sic] the cost of health care as I don't imagine you are in any position to help pay for that which you advocate. My math is just fine."
Coure? Debatimg? LOL!
No, you're "math" is a dumbed-down version of reality, and misstates the real costs that any family or individual would bear under the current health care reform bill.
Again, private insurance doesn't magically vanish the second that H.R. 3200 is signed into law. Your ASSumptions ASSume they would. Your "simple" assumptions.
But by all means, please keep beating this dead horse.
if you can't figure that out larry you have a problem.
When we agree it's ok to torture those guys, we're saying it's fine to torture our guys too. When they nab a bunch of our soldiers, shoot a few in the head to get the attention of the others, then torture and maim, electric shock their genitals for a few days, stick broken bottles in 'em, feed 'em dog droppings and then make movies of them being poked in the booboo by their guys with red-hot metal bars, then aren't you going to be a little ashamed of what YOU did to bring this on?
Maybe we should be careful about using the word "TORTURE." What airweare described would be labeled as torture by most of us.
The WWII NAZIS probably knew what torture was.
The WWII Japanese probably knew what torture was.
The North Koreans/Chinese knew what torture was.
The VC/NVA knew what torture was.
And the list goes on and on...
So do you really want to call "water boarding" torture??
LarryVegas,
Well, Ronald Reagan defined water boarding as torture and he means something to you guys on the wrong end of the political spectrum.
Hold the phone, schaffer old budy... I do not belong to either political party. I vote as an independent and put NO politician on a pedestal.
Hey English teacher (I mean 99):
"Does not say that we obtained this information VIA torture, just that information was obtained."
Is that a sentence?
"Does not prove torture's effectiveness."
How about that? Is that your idea of a sentence. Stick to your talking points and leave the papaer grading to the professionals.
Whoops... I mean paper.
Please pass the yellow cake.
LarryVegas,
Does this mean you have voted for progressives in the past? What does independent mean when there are only two viable parties?
You do understand, by the way, that we prosecuted some Japanese citizens after WWII for waterboarding as a form of torture and executed them right?
Waterboarding could have only been a kind and gentile way compared to what they (actually) did to humans you FOOL! People like you are no more than to be expected.Do you remember the name NICK BERG? What about DAN PEARL? Ring a bell?