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twitterLETTER TO THE EDITOR:
Reform expensive? Compared to what?
Monday, Nov. 16, 2009 | 2:03 a.m.
There are three large and interesting numbers in the news lately. One is the cost of health care reform for 300 million American people, estimated at $90 billion a year ($900 billion over 10 years is the popular phrase), or $300 per American citizen annually — if enacted.
The second is 900,000 — the number of people who go bankrupt each year because of medical costs — year-in and year-out.
For comparison, the third large number is the estimated amount of bonuses to be paid this year to members of the heavily taxpayer-supported Wall Street banks — $140 billion, or about $465 per American citizen — about 35 percent more than health care reform would cost.
Given these facts, it seems to me the “average American taxpayer,” as the Republicans are so fond of describing us, is confused. We would be getting a much better deal by opposing the Wall Street hucksters and their political allies rather than those trying to install a modern health care system to replace one mostly controlled by insurance corporation monopolies.
Americans, do the math. You are subsidizing millionaires who scam the system but seem hesitant to support your own families and fellow citizens obtaining a health care system that works — as it does in dozens of modern countries — and won’t impoverish you or your fellow citizens.
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But the Reid Pelosi Obama solution does not fix the problem
This writer needs a a Bud Light also.
there is but one statistic americans need to know...
the wealthiest 1% of americans own as much wealth as the bottom 90%...
hello...
think about that for a minute...
two critical points...
first...
the system is broken...
because it is up for sale...
the top 1% can buy influence in washington and shape the rules so that the percentages never change...
second...
sadly...
most sadly...
too many stupid pathetic lying republicans mistakenly think that they currently are in the top 1% or that they will someday be in the top 1%...
bozos...
by definition...
the top 1%...
means only 1% can join that party...
got that...
you stupid pathetic lying republican bozos...
Comment removed by staff. Off topic.
seems that research shows many americans do suffer from the delusion that they think that they could become one of the wealthiest. if you're in the top 1%, you don't even need to work to generate enough income to keep you there. this is how capitalism works, folks. money makes money. those with the most money are in the position to earn the most money. occasionally somebody else breaks through (bill gates, for example), but rarely, and it isn't going to be you, and it isn't going to stop the richest from owning us- you, me, politicians, law enforcement, the legal system, the military, etc. That 1% is our shadow government.
The ten richest Americans are:
1. Bill Gates
2. Warren Buffet
3. Paul Allen
4. Helen Walton
5. Rob Walton
6. John Walton
7. Alice Walton
8. Jim Walton
9. Larry Ellison
10. Steve Ballmer
The five who are not Waltons are all self made billionairs. They got their money the old fashioned way, they earned it. The Waltons are all second generation rich. Their father Sam Walton made his money the old fashioned way also.
Do I detect some greed and class envy in some of these posts?
If you will look at the Forbes 400 list you will see that a large per cent of the richest earned their own money. Usually in spite of the governmet and not because of it.
Mr. Mackett's letter is extremely short sighted and missing the point of why fiscially conservative Americans do not want govt run healthcare. He is suggesting that 900 billion dollars is a good fix for 900,000 Americans who will go bankrupt next year. I could fix that problem with far cheaper by just giving those 900,000 people a check for 50k rather than piling a triion dollar debt on our children and grandchildren. But, which of the 900,000 people should get the 50k check paid by the rest of us? Because studies show greater than 80% of those 900,000 people could have bought health insurance but chose not to and instead bought cars and homes that they now can't afford. They gambled with they money instead of saving, got sick, and now the responsible savers should bail them out? The liberals can always find of few heartstring tugging stories where a few people truly deserve finacial assistance for medical bills, certainly I would agree these people should be helped out, give them the 50k check. But wait, they can go bankrupt, the govt forces by law, our society to forgive their credit card debt, mortgage,medical bills etc. and society pays for it in the cost of consumer goods, interest rates, and healthcare premiums. The part of the system that is broken is that people are not responsible with their money and spending.
Of course our system subsidizes the wealthy. That is the inevitable outcome of any welfare state. Why do you think rich people have good public schools and poor people have bad ones?
But I digress. The actual cost of the healthcare plan will be well over $900 billion dollars over the next ten years. More realistic cost estimates range from $1.2 trillion to $2 trillion by 2020. The governments estimates leave things out like 1) the cost of forcing people to buy their own insurance 2) the fact that the bulk of the spending doesn't begin until 2013 and 3) the savings estimates are overstated.
In the end we'll still have 10 to 20 million people uninsured but we'll have a lot less wealth to go around. This health care solution is not smart. There are better answers than just burning sound money with ObamaCare.
Real costs of government run health care: http://reason.tv/roughcut/show/a-red-ink...
The top 1% of American income earners earn just over $410,000 a year and above (so basically every major league athlete, plus a gaggle of Hollywood producers, writers and actors).
The top 1% of Americans earn 23 percent of the nations income and pay 40% of the nations income taxes
The top 10% of Americans earn about $113,000 and above
The top 25% earn $66,000 and above and pay $4 out of every $5 of income taxes.
I can't imagine any sane individual advocating increasing taxes on anyone.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/sh...
birdiedreamin....Hard working billionaires are entitled to every penny they have. Thank your lucky stars they did work hard. Sam Walton if he were still alive would be the richest man in the world. His Wal-Marts employ a lot of average people. Warren Buffet is another genius that just makes money the American way. Sweat and effort. Bill Gates the same. Plus, they generously share their wealth with poor kids the world over. Oprah Winfrey does too and she is the richest woman in the world. Thank You all for your rapt attention.
hey patrick...
once again my friend you have confused income and wealth...
it is the difference between an income statement and a balance sheet...
the stat i am referring to deals with the balance sheet - wealth - net worth...
you know which one of your distorted stats would be interesting...
what is the net worth is of the top 1%...
or perhaps...
what percent of americans have a net worth of less than $25k...
now that would be interesting...
and make no mistake...
the wealthiest among us must contribute the most to help dig us out of this hole...
you simply can not get blood from a stone...
moreover...
this is where your constant mantra to cut taxes fails...
when you cut taxes for the richest among us...
they don't spend it...
they are so rich it does not effect them one way or the other...
and that is precisely what bush's tax cuts did...
and oh by the way...
simply letting bush's tax cuts expire will be enough to pay for health care reform...
Twinsdad...900,000 go bankrupt. Half of the 3 billion prescriptions written a year go unfilled because of cost. The majority of emergency rooms, trauma centers, burn centers are in trouble because of uncompensated care issues. With only mild health care inflation we are looking at 150 trillion in med bills that individuals and insurance companies won't be able to pay over the next 40 years.
I have no issues with the rich other than they are grossly under taxed. When Sam Walton died he left a 50 billion estate to his family largely untaxed. When my father in law passed we had to pay 325k on a 1.3 mil estate. When people have to pay taxes on millions and not billions we have to many loop holes in our 64,000 page tax code
The "poor" are the ones who pay no taxes. The "poor" live in this country and receive more benefits from the government than anyone else. It is time the "poor" start paying their "fair share" like everyone else is expected to do. We have a huge parasite class in this country and it is time they get off their greedy dead butts and pay their fair share.
answer me this...
who costs america more...
the poor...
or...
israel...
wow wee...
what a fantastic question...
or how about this...
which country costs america more...
mexico...
or...
israel...
i don't know how to quantify the cost of mexico...
but we clearly know the cost of israel...
the iraq war will cost america....
over 4,000 brave dead american soldiers...
and close to $2 trillion when all is said and done...
and who won the iraq war...
israel...
what did it cost them...
nothing...
absolutely nothing...
and oh by the way...
the cost of the poor or mexico is far far less...
get lou dobbs on the phone...
he's been bashing the wrong country all these years...
Poor people pay very very few income taxes. They all receive the Income Tax Credit, which in itself is more welfare.
I understand that the poor cannot pay income taxes, but they could contribute another way. QUIT HAVING SO GUDDAM MANY CHILDREN!! Give it a rest already. Have one, have another, and then quit! Two kids are plenty. Get a TV, rent some movies, get involved in charity work. Sleep in separate beds. Try, it is less trouble to abstain then it is to stain.
Israel is the only friend we have in the Middle East. Ultimately when they attack and defeat Iran you will see that.
Lou Dobbs is speaking volumes about what this country feels in their heart. Just because you disagree with Lou Dobbs does not make you a patriot.
The poor pay no income tax. Us income tax is roughly 30% of total Federal, state and local tax revenue. The rest comes from SS and Medicare taxes, sales tax, gas tax, realestate taxes, room taxes, liquor and cigarette taxes. These taxes make up the bulk of revenue stream.
Us income tax pays for SS, medicare, defense and interest on national debt and about 10-15% for everything else. When Buffet buys a gallon of gas he pays the same taxes as a minimum wage worker. The poor pay massive taxes relative to what they earn.
Hey zippert, please define poor for me because some say that I am a poor idiot, so at what income level am I just an idiot not a poor idiot???
jb101...the poor parasite class consists of 51% of the population. That is how many people are currently getting some type of govt. aid. medicare, ss, medicaid, food stamps, govt. subsidized housing and govt. backed mortgages, student loans, pensions, school food programs. The "poor" also pay the bulk of the above taxes when they go to work or buy things.The parasite class consists of many people that live on your block and in every neighborhood in the good old USA.
Larry, please don't think that we believe you to be a "poor idiot". The consensus agrees that much to the contrary, your illogical posts and non sequiturs qualify your idiocy as "perfect".
I did not confuse them.
I said income and meant income. I said the top 1% of income earners pay earn over 20 percent of the nations income and pay over 40 percent of the nations income taxes.
I said income and meant income.
Wealth is all the things a person might own, most of which is not easy to liquidate quickly. So the fact that 1 percent have more wealth than 90 percent of the population isn't a big deal. P Diddy can have a $20 million mansion in Beverly Hills and that does not prevent me from having a $120,000 home in Henderson.
Zip, the poor do not pay the bulk of the taxes. That simply isn't true.
They are hurt substantially more by certain taxes, like sales taxes and tariffs (which the Left, generally disliking free trade, loves). They're also hurt by other import restrictions, price controls, and most other efforts by the government to make things more affordable (they always end up less affordable).
They're also unduly hurt by vehicle registration taxes, property taxes and taxes on capital income - all of which make it difficult for the poor to buy new cars, buy homes, and invest in their future.
Thanks for the compliment there wordofgod. I am so honored that you have chosen to spoken to me again.
The last time that you had spoken to me, you enlightened me with your wisdom to avoid any contact with the swine flu shot. I have not forsaken you and I am a better man for it.
One question if I dare to ask...
Are you related to fosimmons???
Because studies show greater than 80% of those 900,000 people could have bought health insurance but chose not to and instead bought cars and homes that they now can't afford. They gambled with they money instead of saving, got sick, and now the responsible savers should bail them out?
Twinsdad - EXCELLENT POST!!!
all of these people crying that they can't afford health insurance. what a crock. the reality is that they are not buying insurance not because they would not be able to feed their family if they did, but because paying for insurance competes with their budget for a new 65 inch plasma television, and a new bass boat, and a nicer new car every 2 or 3 years.
these "victims" of bankruptcy often made the choices that got them in that situation. why should responsible people have to pay their way?
Yes the poor pay taxes, sales tax, cigarette tax, whiskey tax, entertainment tax. We all know that. We all pay it too. However the liberal government gives all those "nuisance" taxes back to the poor in the form of Earned Income credit. They simply put down a couple of SSN's and a few birthdates and then they get money from Uncle Sap.
Warren Buffet testified before Congress that he pays less in taxes, as a percentage, than his Secretary. He stated. "That is Wrong." Hedge funds are taxed at a rate of 15%. One head fund manager made over $2,500,000,000 by short-selling mortgages. Goldman Sachs took out CDS (informal insurance) on their mortgage securities and then short sold them. Guess who really got screwed?
average Joe...The vast majority of medical bankruptcies are filed by folks with insurance. The poor can't afford to hire lawyers to get a bk. case moving. United, Wellpoint (own Blueshield, Bluecross),Cigna, Aetna, Humana insure most people that have private insurance. All public companies. Check their annual reports. They paid about 200 billion in med bills last year out of close to 2.5 trillion in bills. 200 million claim denials. The inability of insurance companies to pay substantial bills is the core of the bankruptcy problem. The uninsured are causing the emergency room issues with uncompensated billing.
Insurance companies and individuals are causing huge dislocations in the system for completely different reasons
If you want to know some facts about Medicare and Medicare Advantage plan costs then, Go To--www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=620&cat6. One of you bloggers could write a letter that would be more authoritative than any written so far.Just dig out and categorize the facts.
So zippert... Who are the poor? You like to use the word "poor" in your posts, but you have yet to inform us your definition of the word.
Am I poor because I can't purchase everything that I want?
Am I poor because I have to keep a monthly budget?
Am I poor because I am worth more dead then alive?
Please tell, I am getting tired of people using the word poor when they can't or won't define it...
jlb101: The ten richest Americans are.............
"Do I detect some greed and class envy in some of these posts"?
I don't detect any class envy in any of these posts, but I do detect your infatuation with the rich.
This is America and I'm sure if you work hard you'll be end up like Bill Gates. Well maybe not just like Bill Gates as he tends to give away his money to help provide healthcare in 3rd world countries, and America, where people don't have universal healthcare.
just_an_average_joe: "these "victims" of bankruptcy often made the choices that got them in that situation. why should responsible people have to pay their way?"
Liar, liar, pants on fire. Over half of the people who had to file for bankruptcy due to medical costs in 2007 had "good" health insurance.
Stay healthy baby, or you're next.
HEALTH CARE SHOULD NOT BE FOR PROFIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LarryVegas:
The 2009 Poverty Guidelines for the
48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia
Persons in family Poverty guideline
1 - $10,830
2 - 14,570
3 - 18,310
4 - 22,050
5 - 25,790
6 - 29,530
7 - 33,270
8 - 37,010
I hope this helps you in your quest to define the poor, but I have news for you. I have 4 grown kids and between layoffs, losing a job due to illness, and an employer who does not provide it, none of them or their children have health insurance. That's 11 people. There's veterans, engineers, and just plain hard working people. You need to get out more.
Americans should be embarrassed. I know I am.
Willie-I would love to be rich but I am not. I respect them for what they have achieved and do not want them taxed for things I might want. Hey, how about taxing the rich so I can get that Porsche I've alays wanted. That would be greed no matter what you wanted the money for, Porsche, healthcare or anything else. I want to pay for what I use, it's the only honorable thing to do.
If I were rich, the day Obama got elected I would have transfered all of my riches offshore and changed my citizenship immediately thereafter. I would never set foot in the USA again, which would make you happy except that I took my riches with me and Obama would not have them to tax any longer.
The USA was a nice place to live but there are a lot of very nice places to live in the world if you hve lots of money.
Willie... Thanks for the information about poverty guidelines, but I am not sure that "poor" is completely defined by the poverty guidelines. A person or persons may be considered poor even though their income exceeds the poverty guideline if they are unable to provide properly for themselves and their families.
I am not trying to define the "poor." I do not like to label people. I believe others over use the word "poor" for their own political point of views.
The day Obama was elected I booked passage to New Zealand. Too many sheep. I satyed a month and said "Thanks for mutton"
"Liar, liar, pants on fire. Over half of the people who had to file for bankruptcy due to medical costs in 2007 had "good" health insurance.
Stay healthy baby, or you're next."
OK Willie - how about the almost half who DIDN'T have health insurance? I guess they get a free pass because they chose not to buy health insurance so they could buy that bass boat they always wanted......
and by the way, I DO stay healthy. don't smoke or use drugs, don't drink or eat junk to excess, and watch my waistline and work out. I also pay thousands of dollars per year for insurance for my family (I am self employed). why should I have to foot the bill for every fat-ass chain smoker who needs a quadruple bypass but doesn't have health insurance, even though they drive a nicer car than me?
implicit in "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is an individuals right NOT to have the spoils of their labor forcefully taken from them to provide for those who are too lazy to provide for themselves.
just_an_average_joe: My kids don't don't smoke or use drugs, don't drink or eat junk to excess. One was unfortunate enough to get MS, lose his job, and of course his health insurance for him and his kids. Another lost his job and of course his health insurance for his wife and two kids, Same with the other boy, and my daughter's employer doesn't offer it and she has a pre-existing condition which would prohibit her from purchasing it if she could afford it.
Wake up before it happens to you. Do you think you're immune to cancer, diabetes, or other serious illness. Quit opposing healthcare reform on the basis of having to cover the cost of others. Don't you understand that you're paying for them now in higher premiums and co-pays.
Willie I don't oppose health care reform.
but this 2000 pages of legalese being pushed by the left is not reform. it's just another way of the government gaining more power, and adding to the democrat rolls.
why oh why is it so hard for you to believe that the government NEVER runs anything efficiently or at a savings? do you really want your healthcare modeled after the VA? after the government's flagship of military medicine at Walter Reed Army hospital? be careful what you wish for my friend, as you might get it.
I fully support TRUE healthcare reform. starting with comprehensive TORT reform. that'll never happen though as almost half of the members of congress are attorneys.
just_an_average_joe: This Oct. 2 Congressman John Boehner said "we could save over $100 billion a year in less medicine being practiced if in fact we were to have real reform of medical malpractice. laws."
The facts are that the Congressional Budget Office concludes that limiting malpractice liability, aka tort reform, would reduce total national health care spending by about one-half of 1 percent, or about $11 billion this year. That would save taxpayers spending for health care about $41 billion over the next decade. A small amount actually, but a start.
Factoring moderate medical inflation there will be over 150 trillion in med costs over the next 40 years. It is so out of hand the taxpayer is the only one left capable of footing the bill.
Currently the govt. pays almost 80% of hospital bills. I got started in this 25 years ago when we were paying about 500 billion a year as i recall.People didn't take it seriously enough. Options existed back then. They are all drying up even though the politicians refuse to admit it.I believe 33 states including Nevada have medical award restrictions(tort reform). It has done nothing. We have some of the highest med costs in the country.
After reading the usual mostly selfish arguments (I've got mine, let those without suffer.)I would like to point out a simple fact you all seem to be missing. The increasing weight of health care costs on the economy, means less money for pay raises or fewer companies being able to provide health insurance, so we will all have to spend an ever increasing part of our stagnant paychecks for ever decreasing coverage. Something has to be done or healthcare costs will drag the economy even further down and place even more of us at risk of bankruptcy.
Thank you lvmachead!
But this group want's no part of reality.
Get ready... Here it comes...
The new government recommendations, released Monday by the Preventive Services Task Force of the Department of Health and Human Services, recommend against regular mammography tests in women aged 40 to 49. The guidelines also advise that women aged 50 to 74 years receive mammograms every other year.
Cutting out colonoscopies could be next unless they are performed by an U.S. Postal Worker or an IRS agent...
you know how to pay for health care, stop fighting other peoples wars and stop giving other countries money. I'm not calling for neo-isolationism, just do what the republican were preaching in 2008, America First! Of course the Republicans still don't deliver on that slogan they block everything that comes out so they can blame and not help their fellow Americans.
I know how to pay for my health care. Everyone should pay for their own health care unless they are in need of public assistance.
And, you can't blame Republicans or Democrats for people wanting something for nothing... FREE!!!