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Pay vs. jobs
Firefighters’ raises might be saved by union’s hard line amid budget crunch, but collateral damage looms: Jobs
LAS VEGAS SUN FILE
Friday, June 26, 2009 | 2 a.m.
Sun Archives
- Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
- Shortfall looms large as fire union holds out (4-23-2009)
- It pays EMTs to do I's and cross T's (4-22-2009)
- No concessions yet from firefighters (4-12-2009)
Clark County firefighters’ unwillingness to give up cost-of-living raises will likely lead to job cuts in the department, officials said.
Months of simmering tensions between county officials and the union flared up in recent weeks as administrators ordered another round of budget cuts to address a looming shortfall.
Commissioner Steve Sisolak said he and county administrators met with union officials several times in recent weeks to see whether firefighters would voluntarily surrender some or all of their 3 percent raises, scheduled to take effect July 1, or make other concessions. Because the raises are part of a collective bargaining contract, the county cannot force the union to accept concessions.
Without concessions, the county’s 700 firefighters will receive raises totaling $3.6 million.
The firefighters responded by offering to take a 2 percent raise in combination with increased vacation time. They also offered to give up $4 million set aside for construction of fire station security fencing.
In a letter to county commissioners, union chief Ryan Beaman said reducing the cost of living increase by 1 percentage point would save the county $1.2 million.
“These concessions are the greatest of any of your Unions or Associations,” Beaman wrote. “Your other units have given concessions that are considerably smaller on a per employee basis.”
County officials disagreed.
The union’s offer would likely end up costing the county more than the 3 percent raise because the two additional vacation shifts the union would receive in exchange would be equal to or more than $1.2 million, Sisolak said.
In addition, the $4 million slated for the fencing cannot be added to the county’s general fund to offset other losses, Sisolak said. By county ordinance, the money can be used only for fire department construction projects. If not used for the fences the money would stay put or be applied to the cost of a different fire department project, he said.
“It is my opinion that unless the Union is willing to submit a proposal that actually translates to a wage concession” the county might be better served by waiting for new contract talks in February 2010, Sisolak wrote in a letter to Beaman.
Beaman did not respond to an e-mail request from the Sun for further comment.
About two weeks ago the county asked every department to cut an additional 5 percent from their budgets. For the fire department, that would total an additional $7 million.
Because fire department administrators — who are not part of the union — cannot legally alter firefighters salaries, the department is looking at cuts in equipment purchases and jobs, officials said. Sisolak said he doubts front-line firefighters will lose their jobs, but it’s “almost certain” that union members who work in fire prevention and other support positions will be targeted.
“The cuts the department has to make wouldn’t be nearly as bad if the union would give some concessions,” he said.
The county has tried to squeeze salary concessions from firefighters since last fall, when it asked its employee unions — service, police and fire — to look for savings in their union contracts. The police union agreed to forgo a 3 percent cost-of-living increase, while service employees will receive a 1 percent raise instead of the 3 percent called for in their contract.
Firefighters deflected the request. Beaman wrote a letter to the county in March declaring they had scoured the county’s budget and were “happy to report that the financial health of the County is not as bleak as you have been led to believe.” Officials should be “substantially relieved to see the County does not have to ask the working men and women of the County to take extreme steps to limit their pay, reduce staffing levels or otherwise dilute the level of service” they provide.
Across the nation, firefighters are facing cuts and layoffs brought on by budget deficits. The International Association of Firefighters reported recently that as many as 5,000 firefighting jobs could be in jeopardy this year.
In Stockton, Calif., recently, the city expects to leave 42 of 267 firefighter positions open to save $7.2 million. Salinas, Calif., firefighters are taking 7.5 percent pay cuts over two years with suspended holiday pay. In Orlando, Fla., the mayor asked to cut 46 firefighters and keep vacant 25 more unfilled firefighter positions. Columbus, Ohio, is looking at cutting 238 firefighters and closing seven of 32 fire stations.
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If only there was reflection here.
The fire fighters contract will run it course. Then when the contract is over, the county can cut it to the bone. Lay off the numbers needed and when this contract dies, cut the pay 25% and save the rest of the county needs. Better yet, contract out the fire protection and save huge money. These self centered prima donnas need to find out what employment is like in a real world environment.
This inefficient & wasteful gov't bureaucracy should be privatized along with countless others. These clowns need to find out what the real world is like....
I have, as do most of society, a tremendous regard for firefighters. They might be able to save some budget by no longer responding to calls that both the commercial ambulance services respond to. For years we have seen the local fire departments as well as both major ambulance agencies responding to fender benders and residential calls. Rarely, if ever, does the municipal fire department do much other than stand by. They would also probably save some money of their diesel fuel bill and some overtime pay (maybe).
First of all to call a fire fighter a prima donna is nuts! Would you run into a burning building in 110 degree heat or the middle of winter in a matter of fact. No I do not think so. Also when you privatize jobs like fire fighters you get unskilled poorly trained employees who will never do a job as well as the ones we have. All that aside the fire fighters should concede as the police did with no COLA, the service employees would also, the area I work also took no COLA ,which may have been higher then 3% this year ( Slidding Scale), but we felt it was best for the company & the employees as a whole to forgo a raise. The fire fighters are being greedy & that should be delt with in the next contract, along with some kind of bench mark as to where the County can deny the COLA when in financial problems & not garuntee the raise.
just fire them and then see what happens. sure, keep your pay raises, but only if you have a job
It's remarkable to see how selfish police and firefighter unions and union members are. When everyone else is making sacrifices at the State and local levels. The Clark County Firefighters and Reno Police department employees want a raise in these difficult times. Everyone sacrifices and some more than others. It time to put the community first and not ourselves. In good times the rewards are forthcoming.
Go to a semi-privatized fire fighter service. Have fire fighting companies bid to provide services for different parts of the city and have the contracts expire after a few years requiring new bids to be placed.
The current system is unworkable and unsustainable only by allowing companies to bid to provide the service can we work on containing the cost.
sph,
"Also when you privatize jobs like fire fighters you get unskilled poorly trained employees who will never do a job as well as the ones we have. "
Not exactly true, but you have highlighted a fact accidently. Unions protect high skilled labor from low-skilled competition - meaning unions typically hurt low income people.
But that isn't to say that a privatized or semi-privatized system would not have just as skilled fire fighters because these guys are being paid based on the unions ability to restrict the labor supply - not because these guys are extremely high skilled (though some may be).
Firefighter's and all UNION member's are well worth every penny. Those of you, clueless individual's, that think union bashing is cool need to find another hobby. I'm sorry there's no Jose out there in front of Home Depot you can hire that will accept a pitiful wage to put out the flames with a garden hose. This whole nation has enjoyed a living wage thanks to unionism. The scale of the scab worker is influenced by the union wage--the more we make, the more your employer has to dole out to compete. If you think your employer pays you what your worth because he wants to, your dreaming. Labor is a constant variable that companies are always looking to quash and if you don't think that the past 25 years of conservative economic policy hasn't hit your pocketbook yet you must live in Neverland!! Part of the reason the Big Three are in trouble now is because they thought that shipping their union job's elsewhere would lead to more profits. Well, yeah, in the short term, for stockholder's only. But think about it. If your not paying the people who buy the cars a wage that allows them to purchase your product--your cutting your own throat!! Be wise and back all union's in their disputes.
Fire all the union monkeys and contreact it out!
I have high regard for the fire personnel, but the union leaders are leading the pack down the wrong path that could create a huge amount of back lash. The company I worked for did a pay freeze and laid people off.
I would think the fire personnel rather see no raise then the risk of losing a job.
Lets be fair and lets be just.
If anything to help supplement the fire department, instead of privatizing maybe go partially volunteer. I lived back east where volunteer personnel working side by side with a paid employee worked great.
As local and state revenues continue to decline in this economy,it may be necessary to consider putting more volunteer fireman in place.A pay raise now just sends the wrong message to the public as people are losing their jobs everyday.
The experience firefighters should stay in place. Definitely NO contracting out for firefighters. That would be too scary.
I have the utmost respect for firemen. Firefighters have a very thankless job and none of us would be able to do what they do, ie wearing 100lbs of gear in 110 degree heat. However.....how egotistical can they get by demanding raises when everyone else is taking pay cuts. These paycuts aren't going to be forever. And they're not going to go broke if they don't get a raise! If they can't make ends meet on their current salaries and are demanding that 3% increase - then something is wrong. Sometimes Unions are not the best; in this instance, the union is coming off as being greedy. I see a stalemate coming when the firefighters' contract is up 2010.
It's not like the firefighters here actually fight fires as they do back east. Here they surround and drown to prevent the fire from spreading to a neighboring structure. All they ever save is the foundation. They are just great at PR with their talk of how valiant they are and how nobody can do their job. Yet whenever they announce they are hiring they have thousand of applicants to choose from.
martel3, excellent, accurate and right on.
The surround and drown theory is all these overpaid unions scrubs know how to do.
The old school iron men fought the fire, the new spoiled "heroes" water the fire.
Nothing will change. I have seen firefighters "push" the fire deeper into the building where it causes much more damage.
Govt spending created many jobs in the Great Depression, Hoover Dam for example. With hundreds of billions now pouring in to everything, this economy may be turning around within months -- found a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth
Wow martel, if that neighboring structure was yours that they saved I guess you wouldnt complain as much. And as for firefighters back east, they run into buildings the old school way and still die the old school way, for a building. Risk alot to save alot. A lost building is a lost building, these guys dont always go in because they are better trained and understand fire behavior better than years ago. Understanding when to write off a building that is a loss and save many more around it are what they are trained to do. They are not suppose to go in and die over a building that will just be rebuilt.
regarding the response by SCOTTYURB. the gall of you to refer the public as "clueless" won't pass. who are you but a pro-union bully like the rest of the fire dept. your arrogance from your ivory tower is an embarrassment to all taxpayers. your acting proud of something you should by all rights be ashamed of.
Scotty,
Unions have done nothing to raise wages in America. This is simply an economic impossibility.
All unions can do is raise the wages for their members at the expense of someone else.
If we contracted out fire work, who knows what firemen would be paid. Maybe they would make $40k a year, maybe 60k, maybe 70k, who knows.
The work requires some skill, but one thing is certain, it is highly unlikely that half the firefighters would make over 6 figures.
On and Scotty, save the racism for someone else.
Mike51500,
I am not saying a life for a building, but I am saying that aggresive tactics save lives and curb reconstruction costs.
See the vicious cycle is this; the more insurance companies pay out the higher your premiums.
The days of the spoiled hero is over. How about a guy who isn't afraid of getting dirty.
Beam me up Scotty-
This planet they call earth has intelligent life forms.
We need to move on to another planet we can suck the life out of without their knowing our plans.
Beam me up Scotty!
Hurry, these people are not stupid.
Union--Out
The brainiacs who have been "Fire Fighter" bashing non-stop here, need to get a life, and get over the fact that they couldn't wouldn't do this job in a million years. More to the fact, here are some ignorant quotes and facts surrounding them...
"When everyone else is making sacrifices" WHO? Why should only County employees have to sacrifice. Nieman, you have been most vocal here. Are you prepared to take on a 3% tax so that every citizen does their part? You want my COLA? Fine. Take it in a tax that everyone pays. This is the mess of every citizen of Clark County who benefits from the service provided. EVERYONE should have to pitch in!
"just fire them and then see what happens" Really? Now there is a constructive, sensible comment!
"Lets be fair and lets be just" Who on this site is being either? Certainly not the Sun which fails to provide any factual information supporting the Fire Fighter side.
"Here they surround and drown to prevent the fire from spreading to a neighboring structure" Quite possible the dumbest comment posted here. Know what your talking about befor chiming in. Every department in this Valley makes interior attacks routinly. There are fires that are fought ooutside. We live by the motto risk alot to save alot. Risk a little to save a little. I guess we should be more like Charleston (A back East department) that tragically lost a bunch of Fire Fighters because of the very mentality you are displaying.
"I have seen firefighters "push" the fire deeper into the building where it causes much more damage" Obvioulsy well trained in Fire tactics, I would ask for the credentials of this moron. Whenever possible lines are deployed to do just to opposite, but fires aren't fought in a perfect world. On the contrary, all hell is breaking loose. It doesn't always go by the book.
To be continued...
Continued...
"the gall of you to refer the public as "clueless" " Based on the comments posted here, "Clueless" is the only conclusion to reach!
"I lived back east where volunteer personnel working side by side with a paid employee worked great" A jusrisdiction this size prohibits a volunteer system. Our call volume is so great, volunteers wouldn't be able to do anything else. Response times would sky rocket. People would die. There is a reason large metropolotin areas don't have volunteers!
"Go to a semi-privatized fire fighter service" This is right up there in the running for the dumbest post. You want the lowest bid to protect your home, family, and community? I have first hand knowledge of a privatized Fire Department. A very rural service area with one guy running the Vehicle. Federal Standards prevent entry from being made untill you have at least four Fire Fighters on scene (Two in/Two out). You will definatly get what you pay for.
I could go on for days, but to sum up, what is your property and belongings worth to you? Your life? The lives of your spouse and children? What about my life? What is that worth? How about just my health?
Drop the sour grapes and accept the fact that we do a hard job and do it very well, and in the course of of things, do it for fair pay. I know my worth to the Thoudands of people I've helped in my career and I will sleep well tonight. For the bitter, lifeless few out there, can you say the same?
Funny though, all of you haters... When trouble comes knocking, we'll be there, and if necessary, we will die fighting for you. Us Prima-Donnas. Sleep well!
itsjusme,
My credentials? Hit a little too close to home?
Take it easy, your next set of days off are coming and you can get some cushy call back.
You know the "we run in, what people run out of" thing......... so do volunteers!
You must have lost the big truck contest at the station, because you seem hostile to any criticism.
Most of the people here have not mentioned the real issue. The reason that the fire fighters are unwilling to give up their negotiated cola increases. Clark County has done very little to actually cut its budget by controlling its non essential spending. If asking employees to give up negotiated pay increases and freezing hirings is their plan then they have a long way to go.
If your boss and their assistant had company vehicles to drive around in, not to mention the company sending people out of state for training seminars, or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of subscriptions to newspapers and trade magazines, would you give up your cost of living increase?
How many of you who post here have told your employer that they can freeze your salary?
Fire fighters hourly wage is about the same as a grocery store butcher. Their salary looks very large because of the number of hours that they have to work. They work a 56 hour week at straight pay. Most will spend another couple of hundred hours a year working extra shifts for overtime. If you fire some, then the others will have to work more and you will be on your computer whining about how much these people make.
Clark County is happy to have you pissed at the fire fighters because it takes the heat off of them. I can't speak for the fire fighters union but it's my guess that if Clark County developed a genuine, workable plan that illustrates actual intensions to cut non essential spending that the fire fighters would be much more interested in pitching in and helping solve this problem.
Take the high road it will be much more pleasant in the end. Don't wait for the others; take the first step in showing consideration for the economic times we face in the county.
When economic times turn around and they always do, FF will be able to stand tall in line with any other service provider for a well awaited increase. Lose the me-first selfish attitude and not being concerned with what is going on around in the Valley. Be proactive, and get on-board with the rest of the players who just like the FF provide a needed service. The "Brown-Outs" are coming, and no amount of foot dragging will stop the wheels from this inexorable economic fait for the county.
It is mute to ask private citizens to forgo a pay raise or salary increase, they are not public employees. There are two forms of revenue streams, that which is derived from taxes and that which produces tax.
More clearly said, the origin of income is either from value added commodities, or redistributed wealth from the tax on that added value.
Can FF or any public servants understand which column of income they derive from?
You are still missing the point. The high road will not pay Clark Counties bills. If Clark County were to relieve itself of non essential spending then I have no doubt that fire fighters would illustrate their interest in helping to alleviate this budget crisis.
If Clark County spent too much money in a good economy and ended up operating in the red should public employees reduce their salaries to cover the difference? At some point shouldn't Clark County be required to make changes in their spending habits? It is my belief that Clark County should limit its nonessential spending prior to requesting that employees give up pay.
If I need to pay my bills but I can't because I eat out out the weekends, I don't expect my bank to allow me to lower my car payment. This is what seems to be expected of these county employees.
Instead of venting on these 600 or so employees, spend some time getting Clark County to streamline their operations. Until you do that you will not be looking for a solution. You are looking for a scapegoat.
Scapegoat or sacrificial lamb, it makes no difference what name you put on it. One point is, if you believe there has been to much waste (magazines, periodicals, turn-over of non-essential equipment, miscellaneous expenses, etc.) within the FF station why has no FF pointed that waste out before now. I would say, because you have directly not been a part of a solution to change that culture to a more efficient one, hence you are part of the problem.
This is not a chastisement of FF' performance, this a wake-up call for what is coming down the road in the way of "Brown Outs" and yes it will be painful for the county and all the cities involved making these hard adjustments because of the reduced levels of manpower we once enjoyed. Arguments will be made of slower response times and less quality, I know, but as you so succinctly stated in your post on budgets, while we may not be able to lower the payments of the existing car loan with the bank, we can trade-down for a less expensive care with a less expensive monthly payment.
Look at this opportunity to shine, or it will become an opportunity of excessiveness in the lime-light. A know the idea is foreign to you because of all the years of plenty, just try to embrace the needed cuts with the knowing that it is not about the FF alone it is across the board that this is being done. If you are not happy voice it, but we know full well that at any time you can walk away, and seek employment else where.
We don't need to lose anyone we need to manage what we have better, and if FFs know where there may be ways of improving cost cutting to become a more efficient department it is in their best interest to do so. Hang-on it will be a bumpy ride and attrition will help, but for the younger guys just stay the course and hang-on.
This nonessential spending is county wide. Periodicals that are in the fire stations are paid for by the fire fighters. So are the tv's the dvd players etc. The periodicals and other items that were brought up are in every county agency. The fire fighters local 1908 paid an auditor to look into 5 divisions inside Clark County. The results of the audit showed hundreds of thousands of dollars annually spent on such items. Why do the county department heads need to have a membership in the Chamber of Commerce?
You seem to be ignoring my point. Before Clark County asks their employees to give up pay increases that were negotiated in good faith, Clark County should step up and cut their nonessential spending.
Is this a difficult point to understand?
As far as the "Brown Outs" are concerned, they are a result of the County not properly staffing the fire department. If they had an appropriate number of fire fighters they would not have the current problem with their overtime. Instead they would have an even larger problem. They would be paying much more for the extra employees. (It is cheaper to pay existing employees OT than hire new employees)Staffing levels are stipulated by Clark County not by a contract with the Union. The union simply has a minimum manning of four people per piece of fire fighting apparatus. How many units there are and where they are stationed do not fall into the realm of the unions responsibilities. The fire dept and the County Commission have a agreed that we need a specific number of fire fighters per 1,000 residents. They agreed on an appropriate level but have never hired the people. These "Brown Outs" and any repercussions are staffing issues that reflect directly on Clark County and are not negotiated.
The point of the car payment comparison was that you wouldn't waste money by eating out every weekend. You would eat at home and pay for your vehicle.
In my opinion those agencies and their employees who simply handed over their cola increases were remiss in not insisting that Clark County spend less on non essentials in exchange.
Replace them with private industry. They work a few days a month and get paid top dollar. They also have ridiculous retirement plans.
They are Greedy, and we deserve better!