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twitterDAILY MEMO: FIREARMS:
U.S. guns are crossing border, but how many?
Some questioning report that nation is top supplier of Mexican criminals
Thursday, June 25, 2009 | 2 a.m.
BY THE NUMBERS
87 percent — Share of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced in the past five years that came from the United States.
2 percent — Share of the guns from the United States that originated in Nevada. The majority of firearms come from the border states of Texas, California and Arizona.
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Sun Coverage
Fourteen guns were seized after a deadly drug raid on a house in Tijuana, Mexico, in October. Five of those guns reportedly had been purchased in Las Vegas.
Those five guns — four assault rifles and one sniper rifle — represent a small drop in the steady stream of firearms that flows from the U.S. into Mexico, where they support drug trafficking operations, according to a report released by the Government Accountability Office last week. That report noted that 87 percent of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced in the past five years had originated in the United States, and that roughly one-quarter of those American guns confiscated in Mexico are high-power, high-caliber firearms. While the vast majority of these traced guns track back to border states Texas, California and Arizona, the report indicates that about 2 percent came from Nevada.
That’s 2 percent that we know of. Depending on how you read the report, there could be far more firearms streaming from Nevada and the greater U.S. into Mexico.
Or the suggestion behind the GAO report — that the vast majority of guns smuggled into Mexico are coming directly from America — could be totally overblown and alarmist.
Critics of the report were quick to caution that the study’s findings are based on a small percentage of seized guns — those that were actually traced. Even the report acknowledges this flaw, noting that while almost 30,000 firearms were seized by the Mexican attorney general in 2008, only about 7,200 were submitted for ATF tracing. The remaining three-quarters were not traced because of bureaucratic obstacles between countries, the report states.
The statistic — 87 percent of firearms confiscated and traced in Mexico since 2005 lead back to the U.S. — has a different meaning when you consider that so few of the known total are being traced. That figure is even more complicated when you consider the vast number of guns that are surely not being traced, as the very nature of illicit trafficking, no matter what’s being trafficked, is that it’s underground. For all we know, most of Mexico’s guns are coming from the small island nation of Nauru.
Although federal officials stand by the report’s statistics, Second Amendment enthusiasts worry that the data will be used to restrict gun ownership in the U.S. The report does find fault with current regulations governing the sale of “used” guns from one private party to another, which can be done without licenses or background checks. Law enforcement officials say these private sales give straw buyers a way to covertly acquire lots of weapons for criminal purposes and should therefore be more closely regulated and scrutinized — an idea that will surely outrage those who feel liberal “gun grabbers” are after their armories.
Las Vegas straw buyers may have been behind the Tijuana case, which was opened after four suspects and a Mexican soldier were killed during a narcotics raid in October.
The assessment of American gun laws is a small part of the GAO report, which is much more critical of government cooperation, or lack thereof, when it comes to stopping gun trafficking. The U.S. is not working effectively with Mexico or with itself; ATF agents and Immigration and Customs agents “do not consistently coordinate their efforts effectively,” and the U.S. lacks a strategy to combat arms trafficking, the report states. These problems are complicated by corruption in Mexico and the country’s feeble attempts at screening thousands of people and cars that travel south of the border every day.
The five guns recovered in Tijuana and traced to Las Vegas by ATF agents are now the subject of a federal court case against a handful of men who were supposedly paid to buy firearms or transfer them between Clark County and California. How they landed in Tijuana is the subject of an ongoing investigation and not detailed in the criminal complaint.
If the past is any indication, the five guns were smuggled into Mexico in the typical fashion, hidden in cars or trucks or somehow secreted by people who know enough to move only small numbers of firearms at a time, an army working under the radar of authorities.
In Mexico, officials have a name for this process: “contrabando hormiga” — ant contraband: Small, steady, everywhere and almost invisible.
Discussion: 38 comments so far…
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BULLSH.T They're not getting their guns from the US. The black market for weapons in Mexico is extensive and the gun runners aren't bring weapons from the US, there are much cheaper and easier sources than the US.
The government thinks we're stupid. They're trying to use this lie as an excuse for more gun control in the US. Always an agenda of control and manipulation with these people.
The Democrats are ALWAYS trying to restrict gun ownership.
Like Obama's Supreme Court nominee, she has ruled that the government can ban all guns.
If you are a gun owner then vote Republican.
OK. I will bite, what's_in_the_box, what exactly are those cheaper and easier sources? Feel free to source reliable material unlike the NRA tracts. Academic sources would be best.
I have an idea. Let's make a deal with Mexico that is a win/win. They keep they're people on their side of the fence, and we'll keep our guns on our side of the fence. One problem kind of solves the other, no? That way only legitimate people with the appropriate paperwork may cross the borders, and everyone crossing from either side will be subject to searches. Dogs sniff those guns out like crazy!
14 out of 14,000, great detective work. Must be civil servents doing the best they can. Has to be Immigration officials who can't even find a few hundred illegals standing on street corners every AM.
I don't see a line going into Mexico where their border patrol is inspecting for guns. I do see a line coming into the U.S. where our agents are looking for drugs and illegals???? Maybe they should start a line?
I own guns and am not against ownership...I also have years of experience with gun shows, gun dealers and the attitude that prevails. Gun dealers and many home-garage operations, will sell guns to anyone...anyone who has the money and legally "authorized" to purchase them.
That is the only criteria or concern. These gun dealer pimps know darn well, that the 21 year old Denny's waitress is not buying a 50 cal sniper rifle for self protection...and will go right to her 30 year old Mex/Maf boyfriend.
They simply do not care once the transaction and paper work is completed.
Anyone who says the guns in Mexico are not from the US is FOS. Just look at the type and brand and you know exactly where they come from.
It is almost impossible to have a discussion of social policy on these board with the amount of open racism vented by the readers, esp when it comes to any topic that concerns Mexico or Mexicans,
Honestly, it is shameful how some conservatives treat the Mexican immigrants - especially given that so many of them are PRO-family, PRO-life, hard working, and take pride in this country.
Message to fellow Republican: If you don't want to end up as the Whig Party, you need to broaden your world view.
Time is ticking...
"Honestly, it is shameful how some conservatives treat the Mexican immigrants - especially given that so many of them are PRO-family, PRO-life, hard working, and take pride in this country"
Actually they're Pro-anchor baby and will breed like rabbits as long as the Dimocrats are giving them handouts. If they come here illegally, they start their American life as a common criminal.
As far as taking pride in this country...If they come here illegally, they start their American life as a common criminal.
Oh wait, I just said that...
send all the guns and ammo we can to mexico,then block the border to keep them there,within a year or so the problem will have solved it's self
OG,
Show me one state, one city, one street block that has improved with the rise of illegal immigrants. These people don't come here to contribute, they come here to take. There is not one single neighborhood in this country that is better off for having high numbers of illegal immigrants. If you can show me one, I will kindly stand corrected.
First of all restricting legal sales of firearms is not the answer as I am quite confident that the drug cartels will find away to get guns even if the USA completely stopped all guns from being smuggled into Mexico from the USA. So our government should not punish the honest citizens from purchasing firearms. There are already too many gun laws in the books that do not stop anything so why restrict the honest person from buying what he or she decides they need, not the government. I am not saying sell to any one I own guns belong to the NRA but do believe in meeting some minimal criteria before being to be able to buy a gun. Like a NRA safety course, a criminal back round check, things like that. As long as you pass those checks then you should be able to buy what ever gun you desire. Also lets not forget the guns are being used in Mexico not the USA so that is where the enforcing of guns laws should start & end at the border.
Too many Americans are ignorant, illiterate, drug addicts. The Mexicans are just businessmen supplying a market. Mexicans get the money and guns from the US. Legalize drugs, problem goes away.
Ignorant, racist NRA republicans who think an AR-15 assault rifle should be legal are the problem. Gun control is on the way and about time; and its the majority of American citizens who are tired of seeing so many weapons floating around unnecessarily and the damage they do. Nobody "needs" an AR-15.
Most Americans in the southwest appreciate and value our Mexican neighbors. It is only the ignorant, foul mouthed racist few who are the problem.
God bless America and Mexico.
How many of these "American" weapons are bought by the US to be supplied to the Mexican military, and get sent to the drug cartels by corrupt Mexican military officials?
To CronkyVodddy,
What is wrong with a person owning a AR-15 ?? No I do not own one, but respect the right for someone who wants one to own one. The gun is a tool used for, hunting,target shooting,protection. It is not evil it does not give anyone an edge in killing power as it is a .223 cal on average not a bullet designed to kill but wound or slow down an individual. So why is this weapon any different then a .22 target hand gun ?? It is just vilified by the anti-gunners so you believe it is bad. Also why is someone who wants one automatically a racist?? I have Puerto Rican friends & black friends who own this type of gun & enjoy target shooting with it. Are they racist?? If you do not like guns that is your choice but do not spout off your own prejudicial comments as if they were facts when you are ignorant to the truth.
doubledown_deadender -- all sellers are engaging in basic commerce, the foundation of all economies. It's not up to them to enforce laws. With all the mandatory background checks imposed by law, why should any of "These gun dealer pimps" be at all concerned with anything but selling their goods? And what does the BATF do with all that funding besides harass law-abiding citizens exercising their Second Amendment freedoms?
henderson -- you didn't think this one through. If all these "illegals ..... don't come here to contribute, they come here to take" then tell me who benefits from all the FICA and other deductions from their paychecks?
sphengolly -- you're right. Example: since there are literally millions of AK-47s -- the real deal, not semi-autos -- available worldwide one has to wonder why anyone would even bother with the U.S./Mexico border hassles.
Hey Cronky Voddy,
Hate to agree with this statement, "Most Americans in the southwest appreciate and value our Mexican neighbors." But it is true.
however when 47.3% of southern California, 31% of Arizona, 42.3% of New Mexico, and 36.0% of Texas are hispanic, these thoughts are not the common theme. Our neighbors to the south (and off shore), who illegaly cross are common criminals and should not be here. These people who come illegally (not just mexicans) are what are bankrupting this country. Imagine how much money states would save by simply eliminating ESL in school, and welfare benefits for non legals with anchor babies? We again as a state and a country would be solvent once again.
Just more reason to control and protect our borders. I am surprised that the taliban and other anti american terrorist agencies are not supplying drug lords of south america with opium and weapons. Think about that, we do not protect our borders and you can ship anything into south american countries. I can't believe how exposed we allow ourselves to be.
KB - > all sellers are engaging in basic commerce, the foundation of all economies. It's not up to them to enforce laws. With all the mandatory background checks imposed by law, why should any of "These gun dealer pimps" be at all concerned with anything but selling their goods?<<
Well there you go my friend! It is EXACTLY this attitude that gun dealers apply to compensate the greed factor. I am all for responsible people owning guns - but the dealers refuse to "police" themselves. Here is another long forgotten factoid -Florida gun dealers were responsible for the (political) driven gun violence in Jamaica in 1980's and that evolved into gang/posse violence today...Same thing happened in Haiti in more recent times. Yes, the bad guys buy them...but the dealer knows that 250 glocks are not for home protection and they will "pimp" the deal despite common sense.
Now Arizona, Nevada and Texas are doing the same in Mexico.
At the end of the day, people are dying because of this free commerce!
As usual both sides of this argument are missing the point arguing with emotion and not looking at the situation logically.
It is a proven fact that many firearms are coming into Mexico from the US...Logically many more weapons are making it into Mexico and the US from South America where regulations are sparse and sparsely enforced. What does that mean?
It means some regulations are coming get used to it...the problem has simply gone to far to fall back on ideology and hope for the best.
Completely outlawing powerful firearms won't do anything...reliable weapons can be produced to some degree by anyone with a decent machine shop who can get quanities of high grade steel. Outlawing all, any weapon would do is create a profitable blackmarket..
All guns will be registered in the future and ownership kept track of by the government. Get over it its going to happen
Answer: Not nearly uenough.
We should be arming them. Self defense against goons, Mexican or otherwise, is a human right. Guns are the only reasonable way of effective self defense.
We should be setting up a charity to send more guns to Mexico, and making sure they get into the hands of law abiding people.
KillerB,
Please, I would hardly call payroll taxes a contribution when weighed against the identity theft, medical care, and other costs these illegals have imposed on Americans. I'm hoping that you can you show me one state, one city, one street block that has improved with the rise of illegal immigrants? Again, I'm ready to stand corrected if you can! Please prove me wrong.
Once again the government is suggesting,through media sources,that national gun registration will reduce gun crime in the world.Unfortunately history has shown that registration leads to confiscation and in some cases the attempted genecide of an entire race of people.We are being told that supporting legislation to control and reduce firearm ownership in this country will make our country and the world a safer place.Their is one thought seldom seem in online forums,would our government use an executive order to impose martial law in the U.S. as a means to disarm gunowners ? Would our government consider such an extreme measure under the guise of 'national security'? And if such an action were taken,causing the death of hundreds if not thousands of American citizens,who would be blamed for this atrocity ? Politicians,or the voters that put them in power ? This summer our government spent $ 700,000,000.00 to have the Census Bureau GPS every front door and back door of every residence in this country.Why ?
Let them have all the guns they want. Start charging $5,000 per bullet and you will see them stop shooting them. All the thugs will think twice about spraying a house at $5,000 per bullet. They will be like its not worth a million dollars to spray a house with 200 rounds a minute. Lots of killing will stop. The killers will have to come up with $5000 to kill someone and hope they got enough money in case they miss. Just raise the price of bullets world wide to $5000 each.
To all anti-gun ranters;
How are those crazy-strict gun laws working out in places like New York and Washington D.C. or are those guns smuggled across the borders of the U.S. as well.
For the record, any gun with a scope is classified by anti-gun nuts as a "sniper" rifle.
As long as people refuse to use correct terminology then the looney P.C. crowd wins. Yes, looney is correct.
getalife -
plz enlighten the board why peeps in New York and D.C. might need a scoped anyting? Do you need 1000 yards of reach to protect your DC condo?
I used 50 cal as the example...google it if need be. It has only one purpose.
I thought Mexicans would be experts in finding hiding places.
LasVegas2009,
$5000 a bullet! great idea!
and while we're at it lets raise the price of gas to $5000 a gallon so people no longer drive gas-guzzlers and create so much pollution!
and lets raise the price of fast food burgers to $1000 apiece, and donuts to $2000 apiece,so people don't eat junk food and get hypertension and heart disease!!!
and don't forget to raise the price of tap water to $500 a gallon, so all us fools don't waste water filling swimming pools or taking more than one shower a week!!
YOU ARE A #*(!!! GENIUS!!!!!!
THANK GOD PEOPLE LIKE U ARE IN CHARGE OF CONGRESS, SO MAYBE WE CAN ALL BE SAVED FROM OURSELVES!!!!
"It is not evil it does not give anyone an edge in killing power as it is a .223 cal on average not a bullet designed to kill but wound or slow down an individual."
You might want to check your military specifications on the 5.56 or 223 round. Attention directed to the "effective range" and "penetration" portions of the specs.
Gee, if bullets go to $5000 each I will make a mint with my blowtorch, bullet mold, and bag of lead shot.
Gotta love the Lefty Loonies. Make guns illegal and make those who break our laws by sneaking into the country legal. I'll turn in one bullet for every illegal immigrant that's shipped back across the border. Anyone else with me?
henderson -- I have no interest in proving or disproving your neighborhood point. That's you particular soapbox, and not exactly on topic for this Discussion.
wheedle -- you made some excellent points. I hope some of the rest here paid attention.
Unfortunately, overall the feds for the past several decades have shown themselves far more interested in expanding power outside Constitutional limits. Bush grabbed an incredible amount of extra power for the White House. Sadly this shows Obama and his party in power are plenty happy to not only keep that power but expand on it even more.
Worse than all this is the hostility of the body politic itself to those Constitutional limits. It's what happens when voters can't get beyond asses and elephants.
I know the .223 has an effective range can be around 500 to 600 yards & the military chose it as an gun that is easy to use & carry without too much weight in the gun & the ammo but my point is the round will pass through an individual or be easily stopped as it has been proven in combat that windshields & car doors have stopped the round. There are many more guns in better calibers then the .223 so to try & make it clear as to what I was trying to say is do not blame the AR-15 as being a so called "Assult Weapon" or "Black Gun" as it along with any other gun is just a tool. The criminal here is the criminal not the gun.
DoubleDown,
1000 yards? Do you have any clue how few people can hit ANYTHING at a 1000 yds?
I stand by my statement; a scoped weapon is a "sniper" rifle to the anti-gun zealots.
.50 cal ??!! I own quite a few guns and the only .50 cal I own is a muzzleloader; you know, the assault weapon back in the day.
Going to save these posts for the winter - lots of heat here which would feel good on a cold day. Ok, so think about this - Seattle Washington and Vancouver, BC are nearby. Free flow of weapons in Seattle and gun restrictions in Vancouver. Result - lots of murders in Seattle and almost none in Vancouver. May God bless ALL people!
The 2nd Ammendment places no restrictions on the type or number of arms that citizens may bear.
I still wonder why would Mexicans want to pay the price for American AR and M 15 & 16 and imported MP3 & MP5 when I would think they could get AK47 and variants from their southern neighbors at much less cost?
The MPs and ARs and Ms are more complex than the AK and I would think that alone would make the drug people want them more as almost amyone can operate one with little if any instruction.