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It’s easy to predict the GOP’s electoral plan
Wednesday, July 29, 2009 | 2:06 a.m.
I haven’t seen a GOP playbook for the 2010 election, but it probably will go something like this:
Goals:
1) Recapture the White House. 2) Recapture the Senate or at least one net seat. 3) Recapture the House, or at least 12 net seats.
Strategy:
1) Undermine President Barack Obama’s popularity. 2) Make certain the economy fails to recover. 3) Sabotage any health care plan. Do not give the administration a victory in this area. 4) Identify a realistic presidential contender. 5) Tactics should be the responsibility of one individual (such as Karl Rove) with the assistance of several skilled consultants. The committee should meet once a week (virtual is OK) to review events and direction.
Tactics:
1) Object to anything and everything Obama attempts to do to rescue the economy. 2) Criticize anything and everything Obama does. 3) Demean and ridicule Obama and Vice President Joe Biden at every opportunity. 4) Distract Obama from the task at hand whenever possible. 5) Congressional Republicans should not cooperate in any way, on virtually any topic. 6) Consumer confidence should not be allowed to improve. Every measure should be met with derision and forecasts of doom and gloom. 7) Paint Democrats in general — and Obama in particular — as liberals, socialists, tax-and-spenders, and anti-business. 8) Use all media to drum the message over and over. Make sure Fox News, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh are kept abreast daily of our talking points. Make certain they’re all on the same page. The message must be repetitive and consistent. 9) Accuracy is unimportant. Facts are unimportant. Purposeful misinterpretation and misrepresentation can be very effective tools. Create plausible “straw men” and knock them down. 10) Be ready to take advantage of unforeseen opportunities as soon as they appear.
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Hey Stanley >>>>> Dos the Democrat party know that you just made public there 2008 playbook and are now offering it to the Republican party for them to use in 2010 They might not like that. LOL
When will the republicans declare the afghani war lost? You know, like Harry Reid did with Iraq. Get off the Koo-Aid.
StanG: Obama didn't need any help from anyone to tank his administration. He accomplished it all by thinking that campaign rhetoric would hold muster to reality; i.e. lack of his highly touted transparency, hiring lobbyiests, half his appointees are tax evaders not to mention the GM bailout ad nauseam...and his latest faux pas? Starting race relation issues with an opinion that was better left unsaid.
Puh-leeese...don't hang his issues on the Republican Party...he's doing fine all by himself.
Oh look. It's the double digit IQ crowd coming in to chant misinformation again.
"Oh look. It's the double digit IQ crowd coming in to chant misinformation again."
I'm sorry, what was "inaccurate" about my post?
Hey Stanley,
There no way to recapture the white house in 2010. Unless obama resigns or is impeached.
"Oh look. It's the double digit IQ crowd coming in to chant misinformation again."
I'm sorry, what was "inaccurate" about my post?
Nothing, he's prone to name-calling and equates knee-jerk liberalism with intelligence. As the borg say, he has been assimilated.
I can't help but to compair Mr. farb Hypothesis with Stockholm Sydrome.........
A lot of similarities.
Thanks Rusty...for a minute there I was afraid I losing my mind.
Simple math: Obama appoints around 1200 positions (cabinet members, ambassadors, attourneys), so indythinker is asserting that Obama appointed 600 "tax evaders." Now, beyond the simple stupidity of his or her statement, how many people have been found guilty of tax evasion that Obama appointed? None.
You may think youre thinking independently, but to be clear, you're thinking independent of the facts.
edge,
You really don't think there are tax cheats in the Obama administration??!! Stop watching Sesame street and start watching/reading the news... any news.
mschaffer, I know I have pointed out how arrogant your posts are, but really??
I didn't realize the "blue dogs" were republicans. I always thought they were democrats who had weaned themselves off of Kool-Aid.
Look at the numbers; Obama doesn't need one republican to do anything. ANYTHING! He can cram ANYTHING down our throats. ANYTHING. I would hate to be a democrat come re-election time when the liberal hate machine fires up and starts cannibalizing it's own for not passing this unbelievable liberal swill agenda.
If the "one" cannot pass his agenda now.... he never will. It is not the republicans he has to fear; it is the democrats trying to get re-elected in swing districts that are causing him sleepless nights.
Party fighting party, sounds like a normal strategy... We could substitute Democrat for Republican and your statement would still make sense.
Democrats come up with No Child Left Behind and medicare entitlement plans and Republicans take power and put it into action and Democrats oppose own ideas. Not surprising, really.
"Simple math: Obama appoints around 1200 positions (cabinet members, ambassadors, attourneys), so indythinker is asserting that Obama appointed 600 "tax evaders." Now, beyond the simple stupidity of his or her statement, how many people have been found guilty of tax evasion that Obama appointed? None.
You may think youre thinking independently, but to be clear, you're thinking independent of the facts."
I stand corrected...it's only his CABINET MEMBERS WHO FAIL TO PAY THEIR TAXES!
Rebel wrote:
"There no way to recapture the white house in 2010. Unless obama resigns or is impeached."
Stanley never said they were smart.
BTW, you left out disqualified and removed because he's an illegal alien. Please stay with the program.
indythinker,
You need further correction as they paid their taxes and there is no proof that anything but a simple mistake was made. Please try to reflect reality.
mschaffer, really?? really!!
A simple mistake is wearing a brown sock with a black sock.
If I ever get audited I want you and your current opinion at my hearing. Will you impose late fees and other fines or just let me off with a warning because I made a simple mistake.
Mr. Geithner owed BACK taxes not current taxes.
Just when I thought you couldn't go deeper in the well.
How's that cap and scam working out for you??
"indythinker, You need further correction as they paid their taxes and there is no proof that anything but a simple mistake was made. Please try to reflect reality."
Right... they paid their taxes AFTER they got caught. So you are right...eventually they did pay up. But Geither? Is a crook. Not only was he paid additional monies for the sole purpose of his tax burden (wish I were that lucky) he STILL didn't pay his taxes...apparently, that's how you get ahead in Obama's world.
Your refined position is a far cry from the zealotry you first wrote indythinker. From 600 "tax evaders" to one, who eventually settled up with the IRS. You are all bark and no bite.
How about this for barking zealotry? "Most" of his cabinet members had tax issues, oversight or not. As far as "appointees"...wrong word choice on my part. But you know what? You knew EXACTLY where I was going with that comment and as usual took the liberal road to La-la land. I'm sure you know it well...it's that special place where you make excuses for all kinds of wrongdoing by turning a blind eye all in the name of some misguided sense of social superiority towards the general welfare of the unwashed masses. Um...okay!
"Most" of his cabinet members had tax issues, oversight or not. "
That's not true, either. Three people in Obama's cabinet had tax errors. All confirmed cabinet members settled them. Geithner paid his back taxes, Sebelius found errors and corrected/paid them before anyone even knew about them, and Hilda Solis' husband paid back the tax liens that were made on his business in the 90's.
That is three cabinet members out of fifteen. Is that "most?" Not even close. Drop the Limbaugh koolaid cup, your mouth is stained purple.
That's 20%...1/5..his cabinet. You must be spiking your koolaid if that is acceptable to you.
Wait, maybe that number's "too small" for you to understand... you Dem's only deal in trillions, right?
Why don't you address his lack of transparency issue or the lobbyiests?
When I first read this I thought change some names and you have exactly what Democrats have done for the past eight years. The sad thing is that partisan bias blinds all of us. Even more troubling is our acceptance that politics have become power first country second. Why do we (and the media) let politicians get away with breaking campaign promises? I think the most urgent reform needed is campaign reform.
Thank goodness they were appointed to Obama's Kingdom or they probably never would have paid their taxes! Lucky break we collected those back payments from the 1990's. Sounds like a lot of interest. Does anyone know if interest was paid?
The Republicans have not yet used the Democrats playbook -
But Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi are way down in public opinion since the election.
It must be the failed ecomonic, healthcare, and energy taxes policies.
"Why do we (and the media) let politicians get away with breaking campaign promises?"
That's the 1.4 trillion dollar question, isn't it?
"That's 20%...1/5..his cabinet. You must be spiking your koolaid if that is acceptable to you. Wait, maybe that number's "too small" for you to understand... you Dem's only deal in trillions, right?"
"half his appointees are tax evaders"
""Most" of his cabinet members had tax issues, oversight or not."
I'm dizzy. Could you explain, again, how many had problems? You've stated half of all of his appointees (nearly 600), then "most" of his cabinet (most would be at least 8), now 1/5 (only three) of his cabinet. And you still haven't recognized that not a single Obama appointee has been charged or found guilty of tax evasion.
Every time you "clarify" your answer, you give a different number. Now it's "trillions?" You are aware there are a little more than 6.7 BILLION people on Earth, and that "MOST" (the real definition of 'most,' not your 'independent' definition of 'most') are NOT American and thus, cannot be "tax evaders."
Edgewise give it up...you are only making yourself look like a fool by misinterpreting my words every time (I had NO idea Obama had the time to appoint 1,200 positions--bet the rest of America didn't know either.) And,trillions was in response to another post (you can read, can't you?) and dollars, not people.
Why don't you and all your liberal ilk find an island somewhere and you can reign supreme... I'm thinking Lord of the Flies on crack!
Yes, I agree you are extremely ignorant of how many people the President appoints, who he has appointed, and how many of them had tax "issues." None of them were charged or convicted of evasion.
I like how your answer is to tell me to leave when faced with criticism. Only the weak and America-hating right-wingers would try to muzzle free speech. Don't like what I say? I don't care. As Sarah Palin said, the troops are dying so why don't you stop making things up?
Come on edgewise,
Are you really going to tell us that you don't find it slightly embarrassing for Obama to pick all these people and discover they owe taxes?
Like the guy Obama picked to handle all the money and make rules for the IRS - Timothy Geithner who didn't pay Social Security and Medicare taxes for several years while he worked for the International Monetary Fund.
Really that doesn't bother you?
Obama's nominee to be chief performance officer, Nancy Killefer, withdrew her nomination following the revelation that she had a $946.69 lien on her property in 2005 for failure to pay taxes. Killefer's tax lien placed against her home in Washington, D.C., for failing to pay unemployment compensation taxes on household help.
Ron Kirk, White House chief trade representative didn't pay taxes on some speaking fees he donated to his alma mater and he tried to write off the full $17,000 costs of his Dallas Mavericks season tickets.
Tom Daschle owed $140G's with interest and penalties because he got a free car and driver and some other stuff from a rich guy who paid him $1 million a year for advice and Daschle forgot to mention it for a few years.
Hilda Solis, 16 year old tax debt.
Really? You see nothing but honest mistakes here? Can you even say it with a straight face?
Henderson, no, it doesn't bother me. NONE of these actions were criminal, two of those you mentioned were never even appointed and "Hilda Solis" didn't owe anything, her husband's business had tax liens against it.
But, since you hate any and all things that aren't right-wing, it's her fault, right?
Sorry, but we live in the USA, where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. You just want to pass judgment because you hate Democrats. I get it.
"Like the guy Obama picked to handle all the money and make rules for the IRS - Timothy Geithner who didn't pay Social Security and Medicare taxes for several years while he worked for the International Monetary Fund."
He paid income taxes, but not SS or Medicare taxes. If he was trying to "EVADE" taxes, why not "EVADE" all of them? And why is it coincidental that he ONLY failed to pay those taxes while he was at the IMF? Could it be he was MISTAKEN as to what taxes he would owe? Imagine that!
'Obama's nominee to be chief performance officer, Nancy Killefer..." was never appointed.
"Ron Kirk, White House chief trade representative didn't pay taxes on some speaking fees he donated to his alma mater and he tried to write off the full $17,000 costs of his Dallas Mavericks season tickets."
So this guy makes over a million a year, pays taxes on all that, but "EVADED" $5800 on speaking fees? OMG, CALL THE POLICE! As for the season tickets, he was SUCCESSFULLY able to write off more than half of the $17,000 in season tickets because he had kept records of those cases. The cases where he didn't? He owed $2600. Decades of paying taxes and he's caught on two technicalities. CALL THE POLICE!
And he filed amended returns and paid the taxes. CALL THE POLICE!
"Tom Daschle owed $140G's with interest..." and he was never appointed.
Do I see honest mistakes there? Yes I do. NONE of these actions were criminal, and were all easily explained errors.
So FOUR out of 1200 appointees had issues. One half of one percent of all appointees had issues. OBAMA IS A CRIMINAL AND MUST BE STOPPED, right?
Henderson...Don't you mean koolaid-ringed straight face?
This just goes to show that there are folks in America who will always look the other way when they should screeching at the top of their lungs for some form of justice or at least accountability. Geither's penalty for being a lousy accountant was to get a powerful cabinet position. Talk about a slap on the wrist...
And Edgewise: Just because Obama's people got caught and HAD to pay their taxes and weren't legally charged with tax evasion (and subseqently not convicted) doesn't mean that they aren't guilty.
Indythinker: 3 = 1200, "most" = minority and innocent people are guilty. You probably don't get picked to serve on juries very often, do you?
In the Indythinker Court of Law, if you're a Democrat, you're guilty!
That's cute edgewise,
When Geitner worked for the IMF he signed a document acknowledging that he was aware that taxes for SS & Medicare are not deducted from payroll, and that they were his own responsibility. They also gave him a guidebook on how to specifically address this tax matter.
He also claimed that expenses for the summer camps he'd sent his children to qualified for the child and dependent-care tax credit - 3 YEARS IN A ROW. This tax credit is one he didn't qualify for, and the forms are very clear about what qualifies.
Oh well, Tomato, tomato!
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/597...
That koolaid stain isn't coming off I see.
"Indythinker: 3 = 1200, "most" = minority and innocent people are guilty. You probably don't get picked to serve on juries very often, do you?"
The more important question is why don't these things bother you? These are the movers and shakers of our government. Their policies affect our lives one way or another. How do YOU trust someone who doesn't live by the same standards as the rest of us???
Of course, I'm assuming you pay your taxes. But judging by your posts I'm guessing your income is at or below the lowest tax level...as only those of us who actually pay our taxes seem to be outraged by this.
Here's the difference between you and me, Indythinker.
I see a few random tax mistakes and chalk it up to human error. I don't create some vast conspiracy theory or let the Limbaugh paranoia blind me to the simplest explanation.
These were a handful of mistakes made by people who have finances that are 20 times more complicated than my own, who have income coming from dozens of sources, who have deductions and expenses that I cannot fathom. Is it odd for those people to make a few mistakes on their taxes? Of course not.
I'm sure that a significant portion of Americans make errors on their taxes. Probably a much higher percentage than 3/1200, but then I'm not paranoid.
Well at least edge is a committed Obama apologist.
When you see that you leader makes no mistakes it is easy for them to fool you.
Before you put words in my mouth I think G. Bush retired two years before his term was up, he just never left the building.
Back to the original point. The Dem's are so worried about getting re-elected they are their own worse enemies.
The Republicans can't stop this run away spending train, but oddly enough the Democrats are looking for cover and Health care is paying the cost.
Mr. Obama isn't as popular as getting re-elected is.
"random tax mistakes..." Um....okay!
Whoopsie!!
""random tax mistakes..." Um....okay!"
No, you're right! It's a big bad Democratic conspiracy to cheat on their taxes! Don't mind all those tax experts who said ALL of these mistakes could be explained by simple error. Don't mind the decades of taxes that were error-free! Those big bad Democrats hate to pay their taxes! Four out of twelve hundred appointments! It's a trend!
The likelihood errors occur at a might higher rate among the general populace? Gigantic, but don't let that stop the Geek Squad here from making a mountain out of a molehill.
Indy's thoroughly debunked rhetoric aside, can someone, anyone, explain (sans the 'It's George Soros' fault! crowd) why these people haven't been thown in jail for tax evasion, since LEGAL SCHOLARS (tm) indythinker, henderson and getalife have declared the entire Obama administration guilty of tax evasion?
Or is the simpler explanation, that four people had small, random and NON-CRIMINAL mistakes on their taxes, too wild for the Limbaugh Brigade to understand?
"Back to the original point. The Dem's are so worried about getting re-elected they are their own worse enemies."
As opposed to the republican Plan: stop health care reform at all cost. Forget the millions of uninsured, forget about the soaring cost of health care and how we're paying around DOUBLE our GDP per year on heath care than any other first-world nation. They're going to be petulant children and Just Say No!
What's the republican plan for health care reform again?
Anyone?
Bueller?
cricket...cricket...
ksands: What's the republican plan for health care reform again?
Umm, not raising taxes to pay for healthcare for illegals would be a good start. Or, they could run against it!
Rusty57: His name is "Sandoval" Do you really think he'd be opposed to something as ridiculous as health care for illegals?
HR3200, America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, specifically bars benefits to illegal immigrants. FYI.
"Goals: ...
4) Identify a realistic presidential contender. ..."
--
Too bad Ken Lay isn't around any more. He had a bright future in Republican politics.
"HR3200, America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, specifically bars benefits to illegal immigrants." Are you 100% positive about that? This is what I read...
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- According to the Congressional Budget Office, the 2019 non-Medicare population of the United States will include 14.1 million illegal aliens. CBO projects that up to 8.5 million of the 14.1 million illegal aliens in the United States in 2019 will not have health insurance, meaning passage of their bill will see to it that up to 5.6 million illegal aliens have health insurance - in large part because the liberal proposal does not include any requirements to verify the citizenship or immigration status of those receiving taxpayer-funded health benefits.
Mia....
The healthcare bill does not include any requirements to show proof of citizenship or immigration status of those receiving taxpayer funded health benefits. Restrictions on illegal alien enrollments are not clearly enforced under the House bill. It is very vague and has no enforcement capability to it.
Heller's amendment would have ensured that applicants would have to show eligibility through the Income and Eligibility Verification System and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements system. By using systems that are already in place for Welfare & other benefits, we could have used this to limit fraud and abuse, and make certain that this taxpayer funded healthcare plan is reserved for citizens only. So while democrats say that this healthcare will not be available to illegals, they refuse to take any measures whatsoever to require applicants to establish proof of eligibility.
Obama has already stated his wish for an exception to be made for illegal children.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07/21/......
FYI
indythinker writes: "[Talking Points Press Release From GOP Politician] ..."
http://steveking.house.gov/index.cfm?Fus...
That's pathetic! Congressman Steve King (R-IA) has obviously not even read the damned bill or he's lying!
See Section 246, Congressman King. In fact, READ THE WHOLE BILL, ya lazy moron!
What did indythinker write?
"Rusty57: His name is "Sandoval" Do you really think he'd be opposed to something as ridiculous as health care for illegals?"
Get it? Because it's a Spanish name! I must love illegal immigration because my father's family immigrated from Spain in the 1800's.
Bigot.
And, since you've illustrated your ignorance today several times today, Indy"thinker," I'll point out that Spain is on a whole different continent than Mexico.
You're 0 for 15 today, Indy.
edgewise,
Thanks for picking up the torch and running with it but, if I were a betting man, it will make no difference to indythinker and the other cognitively challenged posters. At some point in the future they will make the same claims again. I only hope that casual readers will not fall for their stupidity.
oh puh-leese... I was merely pointing out a fact. If it stings... oops!
No problem, that bigot indythinker is so inept and ignorant, her rhetoric just tanks when anyone takes a simple look at it!
Being honest doesn't make you a bigot. Sandoval by HIS posts support all things liberal that would include illegal immigration by most standards. I don't care if he thinks that the name "Sandoval" comes from Spain. So does mine, and I'm Irish!!!
What's ignorant is changing facts to suit yourself...even when one has admitted a poor word choice (translation, you win!) and you still continue to hammer that person. Why? Because YOU don't agree. Well, there are two sides to every story/situation and usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
You're right...I am bigoted...against stupidity and intolerance both of which suit you two to a "T."
Furthermore, calling people who don't agree with you "cognitively challenged" doesn't make your opinion more right. And, it certainly doesn't lend credability to anything other than you being a cranky poster. But, that's the beauty of America...an individual's right to believe and say what they want without fear of persecution. You do get that, right?
"Sandoval by HIS posts support all things liberal that would include illegal immigration by most standards."
That's a neat way of reframing your argument, but the intent was VERY clear. It wasn't that I'm liberal, therefore I support illegal immigration, an argument so stupid it's beneath responding to, but that, since my last name is Sandoval, and that some immigrants, whether legal or not, have that same name, I MUST support them, due to heritage.
That's similarly stupid and bigoted, Indy.
"You're right...I am bigoted...against stupidity and intolerance both of which suit you two to a "T.""
Yes, you are a CRUSADER against intolerance, which is why you think just because someone has a Spanish last name, they must fully support illegal immigration.
You're not what anyone would call a model of tolerance, Indy.
"But, that's the beauty of America...an individual's right to believe and say what they want without fear of persecution. You do get that, right?"
Wow, Indythinker is so tolerant! Unlike this person, who is clearly intolerant:
"Why don't you and all your liberal ilk find an island somewhere and you can reign supreme... I'm thinking Lord of the Flies on crack!"
Oh wait, that's the same person. Freedom of speech, but only for those who agree with Indythinker!
indy,
I will give ksand credit for being right about something for a change.
Not all Mexicans support illegal immigration. My grandfather was born in Mexico and became an American citizen many years ago. You should hear the aweful things he has to say about the illegals. He has zero tolerance. It pisses him off to see how these people destroy neighborhoods and property values. He is hard-working, has been his entire life. He doesn't believe in taking something you haven't earned. He learned English prior to coming here. He firmly believes that all of the illegals should be deported, and that everyone here legally should know the English language. His citizenship certificate is framed and has been hanging proudly on his wall ever since I can remember. Also, his house is always the most festive 4th of July display you can imagine. You would be hard-pressed to find a prouder American. You would also be very hard-pressed to find someone more outspoken about illegal immigration!
Henderson... that may be well and good, but ksand IS supportive of all left-leaning things and this would be included. You're right not all Spaniards/Mexicans think it's fair that others get for free what they have worked hard for all their lives. Not to be sterotypical (again) but when they all vote for democrats it's hard to not lump them all together as the "tax and spend as long as it benefits them" crowd. I think that makes me more of a realist than anything else. And believe me I come from a family of immigrants who came to this country from Germany not speaking a lick of English and never once had a handout. Plus, I grew up in LA... I saw first hand how it works. You'll never get me to change my mind on illegal immigration or even legal immigation from South America. They have destroyed California... I know they were there first, right?
ksand picks on posters and so does mshaffer... it gets a little tiring sometimes. So, yes, I was being snarky...but they deserved it. And, yes, I am the PROUD poster of the Lord of the Flies on crack comment to the other poster. When you push, you should expect to get pushed right back.
I'm in total agreement!
"And, yes, I am the PROUD poster of the Lord of the Flies on crack comment to the other poster. When you push, you should expect to get pushed right back."
Then don't play the victim about how you're such a tolerant person and people should be able to speak without fear of persecution if that's how you're going to treat other commentors.
"Not to be sterotypical (again) but when they all vote for democrats it's hard to not lump them all together as the "tax and spend as long as it benefits them" crowd."
That's not stereotypical, it's racist. Yes, Latinos identify as Democrats by a 2-to-1 margin over Republican, but that doesn't mean they all magically support unlimited immigration.
Assuming that would be stupid. I'm surprised someone would be so forthcoming about their ignorance.
"that may be well and good, but ksand IS supportive of all left-leaning things and this would be included."
Too funny. Indy ASSumes I love illegal immigration because my last name is Sandoval. And since, a hundred and fifty years ago, HALF of my family immigrated here, I fully support illegal immigration, because I'm Spanish!
Let me clue you in on something, Indy: I don't know a single person, myself included, who agrees 100% with their party's platform. Not one. I wouldn't even be IGNORANT enough to think you have a "Dick Cheney's #1 Fan!" bumper sticker.
I sure as hell wouldn't assume your political preferences based on the etymology of your surname. That's not even racist or stereotyping, it's just stupid.
Unless you think your centuries-old German heritage has a bearing on your current political positions...
Even Henderson disagrees with you, disproving your inane stereotyping.
LOL, I'll be waiting for what she says next. "You have blue eyes, you want unlimited abortions!"
edgewise...you're an ass...
ksand...just answer the question...do you support illegal immigrants or not?
"Your last name is Cooper, therefore you want to take away my second amendment rights!"
I totally ditto indy's last comment
"Your middle name is Hussein, you must be a terrorist!"
It's the same dimwitted mindset indythinker.
"do you support illegal immigrants or not?"
Do I support illegal immigration? No.
Do I think a 3 year-old girl deserves medical treatment if she's ill.. especially if her illness is communicable? Yes, I'm a human and have morals.
Spin that however you wish, Indy.
So while ksand does not support illegal immigrants, he does support raising the taxes of all the hard working Americans to pay for their healthcare. I call major BS to that! Don't we have enough hands in our pockets right now?
Whereas you would let that 3 year-old girl die, henderson? Or allow her to spread her communicable disease to others? That's immoral and disgusting.
And it's stupid. Henderson is making the situation worse, not better.
The problem is that we don't live in a vaccum.
If that little girl has something like the flu, something common, and isn't treated, the flu spreads. People who otherwise would not be exposed to the flu would be exposed.... kids on the playground, in day care, neighbors. Some of those kids will get sick, and spread the flu further. They go to school, the movies, etc.
Some of those kids don't have health insurance, and since they're now in need of medical treatment, they go to the emergency room, where the federal government picks up the tab. Some of their parents get sick.
Those sick kids visit their grandparents, or go to the supermarket and expose older, more frail people to the illness. Now Medicaid and Medicare is footing the bill.
Inevitable, people die of the flu. Maybe only a handful... but those could have been prevented if that 3 year-old girl had been treated.
So you think we should eliminate Medicare then, right henderson, since medical care is such a burden on us?
Ksand, of course they would let the child die. These are the same people who love their "What would Jesus Do?" bracelets. Apparently Jesus would let the girl suffer or die.
"So you think we should eliminate Medicare then, right henderson, since medical care is such a burden on us?"
There is a big discussion going on in the medical field and with the eldery about Obama's healthcare plan.
They are worry that Obama's plan will cut back on benefits for Medicare patients. For instance, why should Obama's plan pay for a $50,000 hip replacement for some old dude that is already a decade pass his expected life span?
Obama wants to deny that old dude his hip replacement and give him something cheaper like a wheelchair or something.
The old people are getting really pissed off at Obama.
I support eliminating illegal immigrants so that they and their litters of children are not allowed to be a burden and cost hard working Americans more money. They are not supposed to be here, why the f are my tax dollars supposed to take care of them?
What situation exactly am I making worse? I am not a tax burden to anyone.
So what if Geithner owed taxes? He paid them back, did he not?
"I support eliminating illegal immigrants so that they and their litters of children are not allowed to be a burden and cost hard working Americans more money. They are not supposed to be here, why the f are my tax dollars supposed to take care of them?" - Henderson
Impossible to eliminate 12+ million people, try again buddy. Their children are born here and are U.S. Nationals, just like you :)
A lot of illegals actually pay taxes, due to contrary belief. Oh yes, It's possible and legal. And since when is this topic of illegals? noob.
Not all of their children are born here. A great many of them cross the borders with their parents. Also, I'm well aware of the fact that we already pay for all of the anchor babies.
If you care to go to the top and read down, I'm sure you will find the exact moment the topic turned to illegals.
Dare I ask, what is noob?
indythinker was totally OUT OF LINE with the comment on "Sandoval."
Shame on you, that was totally RACIST, not to mention TOTALLY out of bounds for expected protocol on this site.
Any human being that is ill should be afforded available medical care. If you are against that basic premise, we are from different planets.
Well, you can ask him yourself, but I apologized privately. Not that it's any of your business.
Henderson: I think you were just insulted...read on!
Defining 'Noob'
n00bs know little and have no will to learn any more. They expect people to do the work for them and then expect to get praised about it, and make up a unique species of their own.
That's okay,
When I think of Mr. Meowington I just picture some sad old guy surrounded by a lot of cats.
LOL
"I support eliminating illegal immigrants so that they and their litters of children are not allowed to be a burden and cost hard working Americans more money."
What would Jesus do? Eliminate them!
No, that's not right. What would Hitler do?
edgewise,
I'm not Jesus, and you won't find me doing a lot of the things he did. Also not Hitler, I'm not talking about gas chambers. What I am saying is we need to fix the bleeds in our borders first, then begin eliminating the incentives, opportunities, and desires that allow illegal immigrants to thrive here. Eventually, when the access is more difficult, and the jobs dry up, and the ability to thrive here is gone, these numbers will decrease, and some will leave through attrition.
We should not be advertising free stuff.
We should do what every other country does and protect our borders.
Now does that sound so inhumane to you?
One huge benefit to this will be that instead of all of the "motivated" people leaving Mexico, they might actually start changing their country for the better. Until that happens and they are forced to live there, Mexico will ALWAYS be a 3rd world country.
"Well, you can ask him yourself, but I apologized privately. Not that it's any of your business."
This is news to me. Apologized privately? When was this? LOL!
You're right, though, it's none of his business. It's just nice that you can throw out a racist accusation in a public forum, and then "apologize" privately. Bravo!
"What I am saying is we need to fix the bleeds in our borders first, then begin eliminating the incentives, opportunities, and desires that allow illegal immigrants to thrive here."
That still solves nothing in the interim. You still have millions of uninsured, both illegal and legal citizens, needing health care not only for their benefit, but to stop the propagation of diseases and illness.
Boosting the defense of the borders is fine, but there are still millions of people here who need health care, if only for the public health.
Revoke the ability of uninsured people to seek medical attention and you will see communicable diseases explode in the United States. I'm not trying to say that immigrants are more likely to be ill, they're not, according to most studies. They're younger and in better health than the population-at-large. But if you deny them medical treatment for communicable diseases, you further the risk to them, and anyone they come in contact with of infection.
And I'll take issue with illegal immigrants "thriving" here. Must I reference your comment earlier today about immigrants pooping behind dumpsters? Does that sound like thriving to you?
"This is news to me. Apologized privately? When was this? LOL!"
I did email you through this site...whether you got it or not...I don't know what to say about that.
I also "privately" explained that I would have made the apology publicly but by the time I got back to the site, the thread had turned so toxic I didn't think there would be any point. So I tried to do it the best way I thought possible. Obviously I was mistaken! I also explained that it was wrong of me to associate your liberal leanings with your last name. My maiden name is also very Spanish and I would not especially like my political associations to be the basis of speculation because of it. Again...I apologize.
And as far as my asking you where you stood on illegal immigation...that is also none of my business and I was wrong to ask.
But, you need to look up the true definition of a racist. I never accused you of any such thing.
Was this public enough for you?
The Illegal Immigration Reform Act bans any state-funded, non-emergency medical care for undocumented immigrants. Exceptions are made for immunizations, prenatal care and communicable diseases.
Also, you are absolutely incorrect! There is no study that shows the illegal population is younger, therefore healthier than the population at large. Paul Fronstin said that and even the organization he works for, Employee Benefit Research Institute completely distanced themselves from his remarks with this disclaimer:
The views expressed in this statement are solely those of Paul Fronstin and should not be attributed to the Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI), the EBRI Education and Research Fund, any of its programs,officers, trustees, sponsors, or other staff.
Now, back to reality... we have seen a surge of diseases that had long been eradicated in this country - tuberculosis, leprosy, polio, for example -- and other extremely contagious diseases which have been linked directly to illegals. Hispanics are the most likely ethnic group to have TB.
Maybe they're not thriving by our standards, but they are still literally $hitting and pissing on public property in my zip code, not to mention, sexually harrassing any females, even 10-11 years of age. Young girls walking by with backpacks for school can't safely walk to school without being heckled, harrassed, and degraded by these disgusting perverts.
ksand, I'm still trying to figure out if you just read carelessly or if you're just an outright liar with your "most studies show" bullcrap. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Indy, thank you.
"Also, you are absolutely incorrect! There is no study that shows the illegal population is younger, therefore healthier than the population at large."
"ksand, I'm still trying to figure out if you just read carelessly or if you're just an outright liar with your "most studies show" bullcrap."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...
A new report providing the most detailed portrait to date of the illegal immigrant population found that it is mostly made up of young families that are having children at a much faster rate than previously known. The study, released yesterday by the nonpartisan, Washington-based Pew Hispanic Center, also found that a disproportionate share of such children live in poverty and lack health insurance.
http://www.sacbee.com/capitolandcaliforn...
"What is striking about this population is it is a population made up of young families," said Jeffrey Passel, Pew senior demographer and the report's co-author.
The study found that 47 percent of U.S. households with an undocumented adult consist of couples with children. That rate is far higher than the 21 percent for native citizen households or the 35 percent for legal immigrants.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/...
The Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington think tank, did put a number on the migration: 1.3 million over the last year.
That estimate was based on data collected monthly by the Census Bureau on the number of foreign-born adults living in the U.S. The latest data was from May. And the estimates are based on the assumption that the "overwhelming majority" of the estimated 12 million immigrants in the U.S. illegally are Hispanics who are younger adults with relatively little education.
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2007/november/s...
Illegal immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries are 50% less likely than U.S.-born Latinos to use hospital emergency rooms in California, according to a study published Monday in the journal Archives of Internal Medicine.
ksand,
Here is what you said,
"I'm not trying to say that immigrants are more likely to be ill, they're not, according to most studies. They're younger and in better health than the population-at-large."
There is no study that supports that illegal immigrants are in better health than the population at large! Not one of the articles that you cite support that theory. Those words came from one man, and were not based on studies, even to the extent that the RESEARCH INSTITUTE he worked for felt the need to clearly disassociate themselves from his claims!
The illegal immigrant population have reintroduced diseases back into the USA that had been eradicated for many years. They are the number one carrier of TB. It is extremely prevalent now in border towns especially. Whooping cough is another disease they are spreading. To say that because they are young, they are in better health is a lie. They are spreading 3rd world disease in our country.
We need to close our borders and screen the people that enter.
Yes, Henderson, you're completely right. When I visit the hospital, I see all those healthy old people on ventilators, dialysis, etc.
All those kids with hypertension, heart disease and lung cancer... they're EVERYWHERE!
You may want to take a look at some CDC charts about deaths by age range and then draw a conclusion. Immigrants are younger, and by that fact, they are healthier.
"Those words came from one man, and were not based on studies, even to the extent that the RESEARCH INSTITUTE he worked for felt the need to clearly disassociate themselves from his claims!"
The research institute he worked for said, "The views expressed in this statement are solely those of Paul Fronstin and should not be attributed to the Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI), the EBRI Education and Research Fund, any of its programs,officers, trustees, sponsors, or other staff."
Did they dispute his findings? No.
"We need to close our borders and screen the people that enter."
Don't forget about all those tourists that come here from overseas. That'll help Nevada's economy!
i'm an old guy surrounded by a bunch of cats...lol! Quite funny.
Sorry about calling you a noob, it was unnecessary, Henderson.
Although I disagree with you, it's inevitable that we will deport 12 million illegals away, it's just not possible. They will eventually come back because of these so called "anchor babies" (which is a racist term).
More and more illegals are leaving the U.S. due to job shortages, so we should see less these times.
On the GOP, they should really do something about their party. Really? Liberals and Conservatives here in America are the same, hailing from the classic liberalism. Just a few disagreements on the economical side, etc but virtually the same thing.
Immigrants coming to the U.S. just shows how we still have a great country where people from other parts of the world want to come, although it should be controlled and something has to be done about this issue.
I think it is so funny.
Democrats hate cheap labor overseas for they say it depresses US wages.
But once that cheap labor crosses illegally into the USA, it becomes the greatest thing on the planet.
They just ignore the suppression of wages of effect when it comes to illegals.
Democrats lust for power and they will dump the everyday man into trash to get it.
Also, Democrats have no probably with illegals being regulated to different set of applicable laws. Like Democrats do not want to enfore labor laws against illegals. That is creating a apartheid system. Democrats are encouraging apartheid.
You go Rock! I think it's cruel to allow a member of a family to come here illegally and start a new life sans family. Do I think that we should allow the family to come too? No, actually I don't. I think that America will have population of issues of untold levels in the next 50 years. And, if we are going to let anyone immigrate to this country, it should be the best and the brightest. In fact, I am now in favor of removing that little saying on the Statue of Liberty. I don't think we need an entire country of "poor and downtrodden souls." I think this disallows other countries to fix what ails them. And, having grown up in LA... it's a mess. And while there huge Hispanic positives and I'm not talking food here...overall the contributions are negligible. PLUS, from what I see most Central/South Americans do not want to embrace America as anything other than a hand-out machine and/or for money so they can send it back south. That's not helping America.
I liken the Dem's view of illegal's like the old North and South. They embrace the ideology of helping them, but can't stand the individual. Whereas, Conservatives have no real use for the general population of illegals mainly on principal, but embrace the individual. I find the whole thing very interesting...
ksand,
For some reason, you have it stuck in your head that younger people do not carry and spread disease.
Also, you must understand that Paul Fonstin's claims are not backed by any studies. They are not "findings" through any means of research. They are one man's opinion. When you work for a research institute that says, "WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE CLAIMS", you should refrain from using words like, "most studies show..."
Younger does not mean healthier.
ksand,
In regards to fixing our border bleeds and screening the people that come here you said "Don't forget about all those tourists that come here from overseas. That'll help Nevada's economy!"
Are you really suggesting that our overseas tourists here on travel visas enter the country through the Rape Tree Trail?
Remember when I said I was trying to figure out if you are careless or if you're just an outright liar? You have since removed any benefit of the doubt I was giving you.
Henderson, then why didn't they dispute Fonstin's claims?
STUDY after STUDY finds that illegal immigrants are younger than the population at large. You've failed to point at a SINGLE study that shows otherwise.
Younger doesn't mean healthier, yet the mortality rate increases with age. Explain that one. Explain age-related disease and their frequency pattern. Explain the increased likelihood of chronic disease as a person ages. Explain how, in 1998, eighty-eight percent of Americans over 65 years of age had at least one chronic health condition. Yes, younger means healthier.
"Are you really suggesting that our overseas tourists here on travel visas enter the country through the Rape Tree Trail?"
Did I say that? No.
If you want to "close our borders and screen the people that enter," why would you give preferential treatment to those who travel here?
The EBRI is a research institute, they are not in the business of "refuting claims'. They are in the business of research. If they agreed with his claims they would not have so definitively distanced themselves from the views of their employee. Is there concrete in your head? You're saying unless they actively dispute his claims, they must be in agreement?
You are delusional if you think illegal immigrants healthier than the population at large simply because they are younger. Here's just one link among many you might find informative.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pa...
The first 2 paragraphs state:
Because illegal immigrants, unlike those who are legally admitted for permanent residence, undergo no medical screening to assure that they are not bearing contagious diseases, the rapidly swelling population of illegal aliens in our country has also set off a resurgence of contagious diseases that had been totally or nearly eradicated by our public health system.
According to Dr. Laurence Nickey, director of the El Paso heath district "Contagious diseases that are generally considered to have been controlled in the United States are readily evident along the border ... The incidence of tuberculosis in El Paso County is twice that of the U.S. rate. Dr. Nickey also states that leprosy, which is considered by most Americans to be a disease of the Third World, is readily evident along the U.S.-Mexico border and that dysentery is several times the U.S. rate ... People have come to the border for economic opportunities, but the necessary sewage treatment facilities, public water systems, environmental enforcement, and medical care have not been made available to them, causing a severe risk to health and well being of people on both sides of the border."1
And it goes on, and on, and on. There are numerous informative documents on this subject. Yet you hinge your entire argument on one man's statement. Even his own research institute won't stand behind his statements.
Come on ksand, pull your head out already.
Henderson if they are already here and such a danger to the public health, why don't you want us treating them and stopping those diseases from spreading? According to you, they are a huge health risk. Do you support vaccinating and treating ANY person with a communicable disease, regardless of immigration status?
cant we just get along?
The Illegal Immigration Reform Act already addresses the issue of communicable diseases among illegals and mandates treatment, therefore it is not necessary to cover illegals under the new healthbill.
Illegals drive down wages and consume and spread thin community resources like police, hospital and education.
They do provide cheap labor for the business class.
They vote for Democrats which is why the Democrats love them.
The labor laws do not apply to them and therefore we have created an apartheid system in the USA.
Yes SgtRock.
Yet they will eventually become the majority, well at least their kids will be able to vote and trust me, they will vote for the Democrat party.
So what solution do you guys think is the best? Deporting them all out?
You could do that, but you would still have 20+ million kids without parents in this country under government care/control, it would be a disaster.
Or you can make them do something for the country and become productive citizens like the rest, or perhaps expect more of them such as community service, higher taxes, etc.
Something has to be done about that issue, and if the GOP neglects (John McCain was actually not with the GOP in this issue, my respect towards that man) to do anything, how are they going to win the increasing Latino vote? Those kids have very negative views of the GOP and that's future problems for the party and perhaps some of the strategies they have failed.
I just want the laws enforced and I am not for a big rounding up and sending them home deal.
They need to keep adding security to the border.
They need to keep having the police when they arrest somebody to check with INS to see if they are illegal.
They need to continue to look for businesses that hire illegals and then do a check on them to see if the people are legal or not.
They should arrest an illegal if the illegal is using a bogus social security number.
I am not for giving them legal status. If they want legal status then they should go home, get in line, apply for a visa and go the normal route of entering the country and gaining legal vistor and eventually citizen status.
The Democrats will sell their soul for power.
Democrats whine and cry about cheap overseas labor but once that labor crosses the border then it is the greatest thing on the planet because they vote.
Democrats support a law enforcement program that ignores the laws that illegals and their employers break.
Democrats are supporting apartheid. Also, Democrats are for the suppression of wages of Americans and Democrats are for the dilution of resources like education, public safety and healthcare that illegals drain away.
I am with Rock on this. I am actually not for deporting 12 million+ illegals. I am for securing the border (because you can't fix a leaky faucet while the water is running), penalties on employers, and eliminating the circumstances that allow them to thrive here. They will leave. Arizona is an excellent example of what happens when businesses are forced into compliance.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007...
You people are whats wrong with the country. Blame everyone but me.. Blame the Mexicans. Blame the so called liberals, blame Obama, blame the Democrats, Blame this one, blame that, Hey how about looking at yourself.
Well it's been nothing but problems with the GOP!
I'm serious on this, if the GOP can't win the latino vote, they're doomed for the future! They're mainly a conservative, white, evangelical group which is greatly diminishing.