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twitterPolice to record license plates rolling through Boulder City
Police say new cameras will run up to 1,200 plates a minute to help track crime
Saturday, July 25, 2009 | 1:59 a.m.
Mobile Plate Hunter - Salem, Mass.
Sun Coverage
Beyond the Sun
Come August, few visits to Boulder City will go unnoticed.
The Boulder City Police Department is buying two automated license plate readers to be mounted on patrol cars that will record every vehicle they come in contact with, both moving and parked.
While the police officers are on duty — whether they’re responding to a call or having coffee — the automated readers will be comparing all of those license plate numbers to databases of stolen cars, wanted persons and court warrants.
When they find a match, an alarm will sound in the car and a voice will tell the officer what was found — from an unpaid ticket to a felon on the run, said Nate Malone, spokesman for the company that makes the readers, ELSAG North America.
The Boulder City Police Department is spending $50,000 for the readers, Chief Thomas Finn said — $41,000 from its drug interdiction fund (money confiscated in drug cases turned over to the department after the case is completed) and $8,700 from a state grant, he said.
Finn first saw the system in use during a conference in Buffalo, N.Y.
“Just about every time they went out, they found stolen cars,” Finn said.
Where a police officer might be able to run 50 or 60 license plates in a shift, the system runs up to 1,200 a minute and does it automatically, Malone said.
The technology was created in Italy 30 years ago for use by its post office to read addresses, ELSAG North America CEO Mark Windover said. About 10 years ago, the technology was adapted for law enforcement use, and is now used by more than 600 police agencies in 50 states.
In addition to reading license plates and comparing them to databases, the system will take a photo of the plate and the car and record it for 30 days for future reference, Windover said.
Finn said that could be useful.
“Say an officer is driving around Boulder City on patrol during the daytime, and someone comes home and finds his house burglarized,” he said. “The officer can do a download of the vehicles observed with a few blocks’ radius of that home and get a suspect vehicle.”
In fact, the system helped find three girls during an Amber Alert in Atlanta using that function, Malone said. The license plate number publicized through the Amber Alert had been recorded on regular patrols, and the car was found within an hour.
Finn also expects the system to generate revenue from the city by finding people who failed to pay traffic tickets or are wanted on other municipal court warrants.
“Right now, we try to hunt down people who have warrants, but it’s hit or miss, because they work during the day,” he said. “This way, we don’t have to actively look for them.”
Police can also be trained to use the system to spot drug running that may come through town, providing the opportunity for the department to bring in more drug interdiction money, Malone said.
The patrol cars with the system will be obvious, because they will have the cameras mounted on their trunks, Finn said. But by the time a driver notices the cameras, it will be too late to avoid them.
“It’s a crime-fighting effort,” he said. “It’s to keep the criminals out of town, who often drive stolen cars.”
And no rights are being violated, because license plates are public information, Finn said.
Allen Lichtenstein, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, agreed.
“Someone’s license plate is not private or privileged information,” Lichtenstein said. “That is something that someone has no reasonable expectation of privacy about. They are designed to be read.”
Finn called the new system a force multiplier.
“We are just using technology to make us more efficient,” he said.
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The cameras will feed information to a secret bunker in Hawaii where Obama's birth certificate was forged.
"Where are your papers?" coming soon to a city near you. Land of the free, ya right. Police state here we come.
1984
this is what they have been doing in Great Britain for years, ever since the Ireland troubles, interstate cameras,speed cameras, mounted speed cameras, variable speed cameras, handheld speed traps, roadside cameras, vehicle mounted cameras, overhead gantry cameras, in fact there are probably more cameras in the UK watching than anywhere else in the world..
here's what they don't tell you...
these can be used to spot cars with repo orders on them as well.
it reads the plate, then determines what car is assigned to that plate. if there is a repo order in on it...it sets off the alarm.
they've been using these in a wealthy suburb in st. louis ( kinda like boulder city )for about a year now.
i think they are used more to keep "those kind of people" out of certain areas and to collect revenue more than fighting crime.
and for real...
how soon until these show up on the black market and someone pulls up a bentley or lambo and says "well, they have a super nice car...and they're not home...let's break into their house".
mred, love it! LOL.
And I really don't care. I don't have a stolen car, I paid for it, I'm not a thief and they can take all the pics they want. As the article pointed out, they've been checking plates forever, just not as fast. Too bad for the law breakers.
Now if they could use this to track illegals and arrest and deport them then im all for it.
MarkP. Said>>>this is what they have been doing in Great Britain for years, ever since the Ireland troubles,<<
Ever since the Ireland troubles? My gawd man...do some research! The so-called "Ireland troubles" go back a 120 years when the British began killing the "Ireland peoples".
Anyway...this camera thing is getting out of control. Phoenix has cams all over town mailing tickets by the thousands. It's about money and revenue. I am all for traffic enforcement and I am all for cameras in certain areas for heightened security...but there has to be some common sense and limits...
"Right now, we try to hunt down people who have warrants, but it's hit or miss, because they work during the day
Are You Kidding me?? Arent cop shops open 24/7. Let me ask then,If I have warrants,,and the cops are after me,,but as long as Im working 1st shift,,Im Safe,,lol.
They also installed a system that generates a red ball or brown ball with the perps name on it ahead of the fact...they can run this 24/7
i love the "minority report" reference.
i don't know if we'll ever come to that, but the next obvious step is they'll come up with some kind of formula that will determine someone's future potential to commit crime and they'll start keeping an eye on you.
gets speeding ticket -> needs money to pay -> gets laid off -> can't pay ticket -> gets a warrant -> gets arrested -> can't get a job -> will need to sell drugs to survive -> 92.96543% chance of committing a felony.
This system sounds amazing but wonder how the cops will like it though. Is there a switch to turn it off? You gotta take a break sometimes, and with the amount of bad guys in town and passing through, this computer won't stop wailing.
SOME of the prosperous parents of Boulder City better make sure they have their i's dotted and t's crossed now when it comes to misbehaving and spoiled children driving unregistered vehicles around town and playing the switch-a-plate game. It is sad to see the amount of kids that abuse and deal drugs, only to have the parents defend and make countless excuses when one of their nuisances gets caught red-handed. To the parents that let the kid sit in jail, instead of running to make bail, we salute you. To the parents that run to the jail to get your little baby out, shame on you. Enough is enough. Go BCPD
"To the parents that run to the jail to get your little baby out, shame on you. Enough is enough. Go BCPD" ... Yea, GO BCPD and take METRO with you!!
Boycott BC....and let the local merchants and politicos know what you think about "big brother"...take a different route around BC...lets see how long "Mr. Camera" stays in use....
I don't do anything illegal, so I do not care if they want to scan my license plate.
I remember going into Northern Ireland in the 90's and they had a camera on the plate and one on your face which was floodlghted. They had this at rural entry points as well.
As a BC resident, I would encourage you to boycott Boulder City and its Big Brother police department that gives it a black eye
Just another step to becomeing a police state!Pretty soon you ll have to carry papers to cross from city to city!Kind of an insult to those 76 men that signed that peice of paper years ago.The name seems to excape me right now.............
My Gawd! What's next? Chips in the human body? Scary
I love this technology, I wish Metro had it! We could benefit from fewer stolen cars in the valley. Wouldn't it be nice if the criminals decided this isn't the place to be "snapped" driving a stolen vehicle? Also, people would get serious about paying the fines they owe for tickets, and it would promote more law-abiding motorists! Maybe our insurance rates would even go down.
This is creepy and intrusive.
Boycott Boulder City? Never! It's a beautiful city, and now a much safer city. I would be even more willing to go there now that useful, productive measures are in use that go a long way to prevent and deter crime. Law abiding people should have no problem with this technology. Crime is too rampant these days, it is time extreme measures are taken to fight it.
Even the ACLU isn't complaining!
Henderson you expect everyone to be a good citizen? They might have to call it civilization where people are not always looking for something or someone to steal or rob. Soon we will be prosecuting future crimes like minority report.
Also, I hope they can use this to keep uninsured drvers off of our roads! The uninsured need to be eliminated from our roadways. They make all of our premiums go higher.
gilrus,
Yes I ABSOLUTELY expect everyone to be a good citizen or to at least face the consequences of engaging in criminal behavior.
I'm not sure what you mean by your 2nd sentence, you kind of lost me, but people need to be held accountable when they break the law. Do you have a problem with that? This is not the Minority Report. This is about people with warrants, and stolen cars being identified by law enforcement. I can't imagine why anyone would object to that. Is crime not bad enough for you to allow law enforcement the tools they need to make us safer? Imagine what this technology could do for the Amber Alerts. Often times they know the vehicle plates. This is an amazing tool that can do a world of good, I can't wait until they expand it. We're always talking about our horrible crime ranking here in Nevada, well here's a viable answer that will do a lot of good for us.
good reason to avoid boulder city..
used to go to the Pit Stop to get a burger...
will take business somewhere else..
This would be acceptable if you could expect a $100 check in the mail every time your tag was run and nothing was found. But with technology advancing on both sides of the citizen/government line, we are gaining on the police state in terms of keeping an eye on them as well. It won't be long until we reach the point of uneasy stalemate for pro-intrusion versus privacy advocates. I suspect the only ones who will be happy will be the attorneys.
CybScryb,
Why should someone give you $100 for not driving a stolen car or for not having a warrant for your arrest?
When you are on a public street there is no right to privacy.
I'm confused!!! This product could help catch felons, illegals and other assorted criminals but you complain about it?!?!? Some of you posters here, I've read your comments on other postings regarding the government and their failure to capture felons, illegals and other assorted criminals.
Well, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't!!! What is the alternative?!?!
Thumper, you mean a debate like this:
<<
henderson writes...
"This is an amazing tool."
henderson is the polar opposite.
"A totally useless tool."
With explanation. In Henderson. Of course.
>>
awesome debate skills you have there
in the near future, your computer will turn itself on and actively monitor you and your family. it will be a condition of your employment and any governmental agency that you deal with, { social security,FHA,food stamps,etc.} that you respond to any request from your computer. you'll be issued a global ID number probably in the same way as the mark of the beast mentioned in the bible "666".with this number you'll be able to buy sell trade amd make transactions. the red light cameras are just the beginning.
This is old in south Florida, when they started, it was a big deal for a lot of people and after a few weeks, nobody care or remember the plate reader and the police department using it had never say anything about a big catch anyway, just installing more stuff inside a police car to look like in the year 2525 that Zager and Evans forgot to mention.
Thumper is full of them. He follows me around the threads just to throw out insults. It's really quite immature. I completely ignore him now because he never even tries to engage in discussion.
You would be surprised at the extremes this fool goes to just to spew venom with me and other users. Most people try to avoid being hateful, but that's why thumper is here. If he behaved this way outside of a blog he would get his ass kicked.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/users/Thumper...
"Catch Illegals?
Drive by Home Depot. Drive by Plant World.
Alternative? Bring handcuffs. Case closed".
What about the people that drive by and pick up the illegals and the other criminals?
Nope, not closed by a long shot. Offer a full alternative. Don't half @$$ it.
...miamaikid...that is kinda the point...after a while, it's no big deal...al little here, a little there....get used to it...kinda like when they told us back in the 70s where are kids could go to school and where they couldn't...social engineering in the ruse of fairness...we balked and then accepted it and we received sub-standard schools as a result...you would seem to be one of the unintended consequences of that little experiment...
Purgatory, you may be right, I said that time..I will never go back to that city and what now, I go thru there everytime I like it or not and a lot of drivers pass in front of others cameras installed next to the traffic light again and again, drivers that at one point never rested talking about it. then again I guess I am one of those unintended consequences because those cameras don't bother me at all as far as I know they are for the outlaws only, right?
I agree with several on this thread who said "boycott Boulder City." That's a great idea. This is simply "George Orwell's 1984" running amok in 2009.
Where/when does this stop? The one comment that said that "this is creepy and intrusive" hits the nail on the head.
Another comment saying "my Gawd! What's next? Chips in the human body? Scary..." is also right on...
The old argument that you have nothing to fear if you have done nothing wrong continues to be total nonsense...I don't believe the Founding Fathers would have thought this whole intrusion into each and every person's private life was the direction this country should be going...
I wonder if the sell of "jack boots" and "swastika" arm bands have been on the rise recently in Boulder City....maybe just among the Boulder City police department?
Where's the ACLU when you need them?
I would like someone to explain to me how this is intrusive. You drive on a public road and the police routinely run your license plate. Now a machine routinely runs your license plate. What if they hired 100 more police in Boulder City and those humans typed in every license plate? Would that be okay because they were people? I don't get it. It isn't as if they are stopping your car and searching you. And don't tell me that if your house was robbed you wouldn't want the police to scan the licenses of every car that drove down your street that same day. Boycott Boulder if you want. Hide from the cameras. Stay in your homes. Fine by me. Less traffic when I drive up there.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! I love it!!! Someone with some common sense!!!
Sorry Sunvistor....
You don't get it! I'm not surprised, however.
I repeat what I said earlier.....
"Where/when does this stop...... The old argument that you have nothing to fear if you have done nothing wrong continues to be total nonsense...I don't believe the Founding Fathers would have thought this whole intrusion into each and every person's private life was the direction this country should be going..."
An argument can be made that the whole process is an invasion of our privacy. I'm sure you don't believe that. One of the dangers of this type of surveillance is that the information can lead to an abuse of police power.
I'm not sure you understand how a "police state" can often be created by what on the surface appears to be just a small intrusion into the private lives of law-biding citizens. Repeat the intrusions a hundred or thousands times over a period of time and many civil and personal rights and liberties that we often take for granted are suddenly taken away...
Ben Franklin said it best...
"Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security ..."
Where does it stop? Oh please. Give it a break. This is not new - just improving a process that has gone on forever. If your neighbors stood at the corner and recorded every license plate that drove down your street, you wouldn't care. Why do you care if a camera does the same? You're not being stopped. Your license is being read. You want to complain about something, complain about check points where they stop you for no cause and want to see if you're drunk. Scanning your license is nothing.
BTW, I still haven't heard anyone explain the difference between the police doing this manually and now employing cameras. Do people like El Lobo think that a cop sitting in a car shouldn't type in the license numbers of cars on the road to check for stolen vehicles? Did you complain about that process before or are you just scared now because the camera can do it so much faster?
Sunvisitor....
Sorry but I don't agree. Scanning every ones license plate is unnecessary and it's the very beginning of additional intrusion into our privacy. In my mind, it's just one small step toward the creation of a "police state."
By the way, I'm not big into sobriety check points neither...
So you are against the police sitting at a light and typing in license numbers of cars to check for stolen vehicles? Or your neighbors noting the license numbers of cars on your street? If so, I still don't agree with you but at least you're consistent.
Sunvisitor....
In my mind there's a difference between a police officer typing in the license plate number of a car that already fits the description of a stolen car that he is looking for (make of car; color of car, etc...) compared to running the plate numbers of EVERY car that passes bye....
I'm sure you don't see the difference in the two situations, but I do...The first situation is based on "probable cause" (color & make of car) and the second is an attitude that every one driving bye is guilty until proven innocent...
That isn't what the cops do now. They record licenses numbers they see. Not because the car fits any description but because the car is near them. Just in case. Again, I don't have a problem with that. You'd like them to have probable cause. I want them to have probable cause to come to my house and look in my garage but I couldn't care less if they record my license when I'm on the road.
This is our way of saying we don't want you people from LV or Henderson in our fair town.
Just to show I'm consistent, I don't care that the TSA checks my luggage to make sure I don't have contraband, explosives, guns or the like. And I don't care that they use technology to speed up the search of my luggage. But they better not come to my house without a warrent.
Sunvisitor....
I must disagree with you. I don't believe they should be able to come to my house and check my garage without the proper search warrant. I believe the courts have consistently said that very thing in case after case.
If a car is sitting abandoned along the roadway, I see nothing wrong with the police running a plate check on that particular vehicle, but I'm against the police running a plate check on every car that comes bye....there's no "probable cause" in that situation.
"Probable cause" is a biggie when it comes to what a policeman can and not do..... It's part of the "innocent until proven guilty" approach that is the very basis of our legal system...
Flintstone said...
"This is our way of saying we don't want you people from LV or Henderson in our fair town."
You may be correct. There has always been some what of an "elitist attitude" in Boulder City among some of its citizens...not all, but some!
Um. I think I said the same thing El Lobo. Read it again. They need a warrent to come to my house. We agree on that. We just don't agree on whether they can run the plate randomly when I'm on the street.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-...
wonder if the parents wish there were some photos of the car and people around the car
Way to go Chief Finn, I look forward to seeing the BCPD Units driving around town with the cameras in service. This a great town but there are more then a few dirt bags that sneak by unnoticed. Once the word gets out to the local gangs that visit our town under the cover of darkness and they start getting arrested for illegal tags, stolen vehicles or no proof of insurance our crime rate will drop. What a concept. Most local residents are unaware that there are cameras already in place at Veterans Memorial and US 93. That intersection can be watched at the BCPD Dispatch Center 24/7 and I wouldn't be surprised if it's not connected to a DVR as well. If your in the public view you can be watched and documented. If you have lots of tickets from any agency and/or your license plate gets some form of attention from the DMV. Well guess what you shouldn't be driving. Driving is a privilege not a necessity, you can always ride the CAT bus.
With the earlier comment in reference "Probable Cause" they way must people drive here in town and on the highway (locals and tourist) the BCPD Units will have plenty of PC to stop someone after the camera system activates off of their license plate. This makes a nice one, two punch with the Lo-Jack system already in some of the BCPD Units It's a shame we don't have cameras mounted permanently in the "School Zone" on Adams Blvd. That would make some great revenue for this town.
Once again "Way to go Chief" keep on them and someone take my picture.....Please. My plate is clean.
If they fined everyone without a front license plate they could raise 10 million or more. I think they should do it - or maybe do it as part of their take the perps picture project if they can.
boulder city can always go back to the dummy in the patrol car unless they still use it! boulder city is nice but it seems like a giant speed trap!
Idiots like Sunvisor and henderhole just don't get it. They're the same type of scumbags who would have been all for Hitler and his plan.
"Give me liberty or give me death". Never heard that before, huh? Why don't we all just get a chip implanted on our person so the police can be sure we're obeying the law at all times. These two dbags would say "why not, I've got nothing to hide". You're not fit to call yourself Americans.
This link gives some pretty good info on the various uses of the LPR Systems.
Its not only being used to run vehicle checks
but there also using it for tracking Recent vehicle sightings, Vehicle locations vs. vehicle registrations, Suspect vehicle patterns, Patrol major events (festivals, parades, dignitary visits), Run vehicles at high crime locations (bars, clubs, etc), Covert investigations and it also is designed to share the gathered info with other Law Enforcement Agencies.
This link will make you think!
http://www.iacptechnology.org/LEIM/2009P...
If they BAR CODED everyone on the forehead ...it would resolve EVERYTHING and end all these silly ideas of how to handle a situation.All your personal information could be recorded,any speeding,criminal records,health records,all sorts of stuff. Food shopping ?....just run your head across the scanner and its paid for out of your checking account,no need for debit cards.It's coming folks...to a neighborhood near you !!
The cops also use these readers to keep track of movement of vehicles. In other words, it can keep track say if your vehicle is at a local pub, more then once or for a long period of time. Plates that generate lost of hits can be watched and targeted for potential DUI's. This should make your roads safer, although they may hurt some of the downtown businesses. Personally if I drank, I would think twice about getting hammered in Boulder City, then attempting to navigate my way back to Henderson. I have been nearly killed by drunks on that highway at least three times. Here is to a potential life saver !
Maybe "clean, green Boulder City" should change its name? Why don't we start a contest on this thread and pick a new name for the little city by the dam? I'll start it out...
"Snoopervile, USA"
Drug testing, sobriety checkpoints, new mandatory insurance checking, smog tests,
2 forms of government issued I.D., please!
X-ray machines at the airport, metal detectors in schools, stores, courthouses, et. al,
"background checks", blood tests, security cameras, RANDOM anything checks, credit checks for employment, traffic cams, DNA databases,
and automatic license plate checks are but a few of the wonders of invention and money making scams that have impugned our privacy since I turned 18. And I'm not THAT old.
I absolutely HATE going to work and being told to go pee in a cup. Yes, it Pi$$es me off!
"Go prove your not on something, would you?"
The NANNY STATE is open for business, big time.
If you really don't want them to read your plate with a LPR System a series of High output infrared LED's hidden inside a license plate frame should conceal it from the camera but to the naked eye everything will still look normal.
The image produced by the camera should be whited out like you pointed a spotlight at it.
Just a thought :)
Something about this bothers me
One of the hallmarks of this country has been an inherent balance of power between the governed and the governors. It's ingrained in our Constitution. It's why this country works. The government doesn't have control over us because it's too hard to control all of us. As soon as that balance changes, however, it is far too easy for tyrants to take control of our lives.
For decades the high courts have called these warrantless searches "fishing expeditions."
Nevada's Supreme Court Chief Justice questioned this kind of thing in 1995's Taylor v. State -- under the Fourth Amendment "the unlawful exercise of police discretion in performing a search for incriminating evidence is, in a purely analytical sense, a violation of one's constitutional rights irrespective of whether any incriminating evidence is seized."
What some of you plainly ignore here is what creates the data matches -- somewhere in connecting the dots resulting in the "match," data had to have been entered, and that usually involves human error. The Sun has proven the federal government can't even manage its terrorist watch lists, including "no fly" lists. Innocent people are on it while the real bad ones are not. What about a driver's license suspended due to child support issues? Or someone with a bona fide emergency who has to drive? Or just needs to get to work? Never forget the highways, roads, streets, and alleys are the public right of way. Yet to many of you here excluding someone from using them is no big deal.
It's called "freedom," you stupid people, and it's eroding fast because you're ignorant and forgot what it means to be a citizen. Welcome to the Imperial Police State where the real criminals are in charge and sheep like your welcome it.
Those people that cannot legally drive are perfectly welcome to use the highways, roads, streets, and alleys via the city bus and taxicabs to get to work. Deadbeat dads don't really elicit any sympathy from me. If you procreate, you should support your children. People with suspended licenses are mmost likely uninsured motorists, and are a hazzard to us all.
Yes, you will all soon be required to wear arm bands and carry papers.
Big Brother sells more Nanny Tech Protectionism the naive, gullable sheep sacrifice FREEDOM for more POLICE Protection. Here's the deal, this is great business for the POLICE and tech companies, bad idea for the PEOPLE. So, next time you are border-line 3 minutes over on your parking, or slightly over the speed limit (passing), or go through a Yellow light -- you will be arrested somewhere in town about 15-minutes later. Or perhaps you paid all your fines, but the traffic court hasn't processed your payment -- busted again. Try to explain, that's disorderly conduct TASER, booked, and busted again.
Most people don't have their cars stolen, so that is just a lie as to justifying further gov't intrusion in our daily lives. Try LO-JACK.
Computer glitch -- your plate doesn't show up in the system, busted again, hope they don't use the TASER again.
Those of you who do not understand FREEDOM or the RIGHT TO TRAVEL buy into the b.s. about "no expectation of privacy" a legal phrase intended to erode 4th Amend rights to be FREE of unreasonable searches and seizures.
How's this scenario -- your travel through a notorious "bad" section of town, because it happens to be the shortest route brings you up as a suspect for dealing drugs. Computer generates affidavit for probabl cause w/ judge's electronic signature (because it's so much more efficient and cost saving then waking up the judge at night) -- and the swat team is knocking down your door.
And since sooooooooo many of you don't do anything illegal, why have the 4th Amend? Why not just keep your front door open and let the Storm Troopers check to make sure that you are safe in bed at night and not blogging away about FREEDOM and other nonsensical things.
It's not an elitist attitude, we really are better than everyone else. Kidding. When the bypass is finished, we will actually use the license plates information to send you all invitations to eat and shop in our town or spend the night in our boulder dam hotel after our economy has shrunk down to nothing.
One word, fellas.
Mud
...all y'all...I gotta make one last comment on this subject...you are free to discount it if you wish, but it applies now and it applies always...I humbly request you consider this statement from one of our Founding Fathers..."They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" ~ Benjamin Franklin ~ 1759
KillerB.......
I agree. We lose our rights, our freedoms, our basic civil liberties, one small intrusion at a time. A little here.....a little there. The plate reading/surveillance thing is a small thing but it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about...
People like henderson are a good example of how that can happen. He's so concerned about such things as deadbeat dads that he's willing to give up his privacy so the government can find and arrest a few deadbeat dads. They might also discover a few cars displaying illegal tags and they might actually find some one who has no proof of insurance. Wow! Sounds like the local tax payers are getting their money's worth.
In short, it appears that henderson won't be content until every weed is plucked from society's garden...
I wonder which side of the political spectrum henderson would have lived on if he had been a citizen in Germany during the 1930's? No, I don't have to wonder....I know the answer to that question!
Yes, the decision handed down in Taylor v. State -- pretty much says it all.
Why the ACLU has not as yet "jumped" on the Boulder City plate surveillance situation is puzzling. Maybe they have?
...sorry El Lobo...I didn't realize you had already quoted Benjamin Franklin...probably doesn't hurt to see it a second time...perhaps someone like 'Henderson' may need repetition, as he is more-than-likely a product of a State run school system...
El Lobo:
I don't feel good about the cameras too; I hope this helps even though I don't like it. Not all actions by which governmental authorities obtain information from or about a person constitute a search. Therefore, government action triggers the Fourth Amendment's protections only when the information or evidence at issue was obtained through a "search" within the meaning of the amendment. If no search occurs, no warrant is required. In general, authorities have searched when they have impeded upon a person's reasonable expectation of privacy.
In United States constitutional law the expectation of privacy is a legal test which is crucial in defining the scope of the applicability of the privacy protections of the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution.
A subjective expectation of privacy is an opinion of a person that a certain place or situation is private.
An objective, legitimate or reasonable expectation of privacy is an expectation of privacy recognized by society.
According to the United States law, examples of places where a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy are person's residence and public places which have been specifically provided by businesses or the public sector to ensure privacy, such as public restrooms, private portions of jailhouses, or a phone booth.
In general, one cannot have an expectation of privacy in public places, with the exceptions mentioned above. A popular example is denial of privacy for garbage left for collection in a public place.
While a person may have a subjective expectation of privacy in his car, it is not always an objective one, unlike person's home, according to the US law.
The government may not detain an individual even momentarily without reasonable and articulable suspicion, with a few exceptions.
Where society's need is great and no other effective means of meeting the need is available, and intrusion on people's privacy is minimal, checkpoints toward that end may briefly detain motorists. In Michigan v. Sitz 496 U.S. 444 (1990), the Supreme Court allowed discretionless sobriety checkpoints. In United States v. Martinez-Fuerte 428 U.S. 543 (1976), the Supreme Court allowed discretionless immigration checkpoints. In Delaware v. Prouse 440 U.S. 648 (1979), the Supreme Court allowed discretionless checkpoints for driver's licenses and registration. In Illinois v. Lidster 540 U.S. 419 (2004), the Supreme Court allowed focused informational checkpoints. However, discretionary checkpoints or general crime-fighting checkpoints are not allowed.
I would argue that albeit the cameras are fast in the ability of obtaining evidence, in my point of view, they are general crime-fighting checkpoints and therefore not allowed.
In-turn, the fruit of the poisonous tree, which means that law enforcement can't use the info that the cameras have acquired.
The Court adopted the exclusionary rule in Weeks v. United States, 232 U.S. 383 (1914), prior to which all evidence, no matter how seized, could be admitted in court. Additionally, in Silverthorne Lumber Co. v. United States, 251 U.S. 385 (1920) and Nardone v. United States, 308 U.S. 338 (1939), the Court ruled that tips resulting from illegally obtained evidence are also inadmissible in trials as fruit of the poisonous tree. The rule serves primarily to deter police officers from willfully violating a suspect's Fourth Amendment rights. The rationale behind the exclusionary rule is that if the police know evidence obtained in violation of the Fourth Amendment cannot be used to convict someone of a crime, they will not violate it. In delivering the opinion of the Court, Justice Frankfurter, in Wolf v. Colorado, 338 U.S. 25 (1949), rejected incorporation of the Fourth Amendment by way of the Fourteenth Amendment. Later, in Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U.S. 643 (1961), the Supreme Court explicitly overruled Wolf and made the Fourth Amendment (including the exclusionary rule) applicable in state proceedings as an essential part of criminal procedure.
KillerB-- I'm with you about the fact that the data has to get entered by someone, and as far as the errors go the ones that are responsible for entering it need to be held accountable for the mistakes they make on a regular basis. Just recently during one of there routine checks I ended up going for a ride because one of those genius's entered my Social Security Number wrong which intern made it so tickets that had been paid appear as though they weren't. Now had I been driving, my truck would have been impounded, and either way I was detained for hours, and I didn't even hear someone say Oop's much less offer an apology.
People that don't think this is violation of there privacy need to wake up!
This system is not only reading your plate and checking status its also tracking you and logging it into a database for future incrimination and reference.
And as soon as one of you "Good Law Abiding Citizens" gets pulled over and interrogated about a crime that happened in a house that your car overheated in front of so you stopped and let it cool down for a minute so you could drive the rest of the way home.
That stupid nervous and scarred look on your face will have you guilty and they'll have you signing a confession within minutes!
Boulder City is setting up a de facto perimeter around itself by capturing and storing for 90-days every license plate that rolls through town. I typically make the drive to visit Milo's once per week, but as a born-and-bred Nevada Libertarian, why would I want my plate shot-and-stored when all I'm doing is patronizing a local business? In practice, this is not too much different from stopping me at the town limits to check my papers.
Thanks to its lack of gaming, Boulder City was always Nevada's best chance of being that archetypical "small town" bustling with arts and cafes. But this, combined with the proposed Boulder City bypass, will kill whatever chance it had. Soon, Boulder City will be little more than a bedroom community; a bland, white-bread suburb with no personality of its own. What a shame.
Well as practicing Mormon, I don't see the "benefit" of these bars and clubs, only to the few locals who own them. Like I said earlier if people didn't drink and drive they would be much safer. Lets keep all that stuff in Vegas, I would visit more often if I don't have to deal with drunks. If this device keeps drunks out of Boulder City and off the roads, I will visit more often !
rhno2009, El Lobo, rizzo -- Glad to see we're on the same page.
Reading this article I see their excuses are all over the map -- "from an unpaid ticket to a felon on the run" -- stolen cars, Amber Alerts, etc. In the last two cases using this surveillance could be legitimate -- an outside citizen complaint of a crime committed is an exigent reason.
My big concern of this blatant Fourth Amendment violation lies in this -- of all the data gathered by these questionable searches, if your plate is run then NOT categorized as a stolen vehicle, Amber Alert or something similar, what's their protocol for dumping your plate and all data captured? And what are the subcategories of plates/violations not being mentioned here? WHERE DOES THAT DATA GO?? As this article shows it's retained for 30 days, just in case the BC cops (if they're the only ones who see and use it) can dig up something later on the subject. But then who are they sharing it with?
And give me a break on "Someone's license plate is not private or privileged information... That is something that someone has no reasonable expectation of privacy about. They are designed to be read." That may be true about the plate itself, but there is a person on the other side of each plate. And there is no doubt most people being subjected to this search are fully protected by the Bill of Rights, which they cops all swore oaths to support, protect and preserve. Oaths this article proves they conveniently set aside for the sake of writing more tickets, impounding more vehicles, raking in more cash for the City.
Found this online when researching the use of this new technology - the slope seems to be slipperier and slipperier...
License-plate recognition is a function of highly specialized software programs that allow computers to 1) take photographs of automobile traffic provided by video surveillance cameras, 2) focus upon the license plate of each and every vehicle that's been photographed, 3) "read" and record the series of numbers and/or letters imprinted on the plate, and 4) check to see if and how this information is contained in the (various) database(s). Such checks 5) can identify plates/cars/drivers who have arrest warrants, expired registrations, or cars reported as stolen, 6) can bill ordinary, law-abiding citizens for their use of highways or border-crossings, 7) can be done in a matter of seconds, and can be done (again) when another camera is encountered, which 8) allows the (various) database(s) to keep track of the movements, destinations, and speeds of plates/cars/drivers who have been identified (i.e., all of them).
Unlike face recognition software, which, when used upon large crowds of people in public places, has unacceptably high error and false-positive rates, license-plate recognition makes comparatively few mistakes. License plates, unlike human faces, are always precisely where you expect them to be, two-dimensional, easy to photograph and "scan," and full of already encoded ("machine-readable") information.
Significantly, license-plate recognition is far more privacy-invasive than face recognition software. A face may be "recognized" -- its features may be discerned, recorded and measured -- but that is all. It isn't "read" or analyzed (for example: submitted to medical, anthropological or phrenological study). But a license plate can be "read" and made to reveal all the confidential information it contains (name, age, physical description, address, type of vehicle, driving record, etc). In short, unlike a face, a license plate can be -- is being -- turned into a bar code.
Lets see...Metro and North Las Vegas already have this technology, and Henderson and Boulder City will be getting it. Guess some of you will never leave your house now.
Sorry, Boulder City - My hard earned dollars will not be spent in your town again. I agree with the previous writer that these 'small changes' are the perfect way to eventually rob us of our inherent rights under the Constitution.
Remember, if you put a frog into boiling water, it'll jump right out, but if you put it in cold and slowly raise the temp to boiling....well, you get Boulder City, don't you?
i have a question for all of you left wing nutjobs...if my city is doing something so bad, so evil, so wrong, so unconstitutional that you can't help but post some unintelligent drivel about it, then why would your last saving grace, the ACLU, be telling you that you are WRONG and that license plates are PUBLIC information and that the city will be in the right to run EVERY plate entering or leaving Clean, Green Boulder City...if you doubt me, reread the line above from the ACLU's Allen Lichtenstein.
Hmmm.....
for those of you who need help finding the ACLU's comment about it, here it is...
Allen Lichtenstein, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, agreed.
"Someone's license plate is not private or privileged information," Lichtenstein said. "That is something that someone has no reasonable expectation of privacy about. They are designed to be read."
It's really quite simple....you don't like what's happening in BC, they stay your @$$ out of BC.
Unbelievable, just another step closer for their control over everyone. One step at a time, the sheep just keep letting everything happen. This is not America land of the free anymore. Its now Big Brothers land. I'm sure alot of this info will be added into the data mining networks. Over time if u live in a town with this type of system, authorities will be able to find tracking patterns. Where u go, what u do, what type of life you lead. This is not for "your safety". It is for the gain of more control for a police state and for establishing the new world order. Don't be so naieve that if you are a "good citizen" nothing bad will come of it. Personally I like my privacy. But the powers that be want to put their nose into your world. Its just another stepping stone for revenue and more control. Guess I'll never go to Boulder city. But it won't be long until this system is commonplace everywhere. Soon as they can afford it, the police will get it. Its a shame that countless souls fought for our freedoms and now it seems more and more in vain.
I will certainly keep my ass, and my money, out of Boulder City. Die on the vine!
The use of a license-plate recognition system is simply an invasion of ones privacy. It may be a very small invasion but its an invasion. The use of the system from a constitutional view point may not be looked upon as an invasion, but history teaches us differently.
The lesson is that personal rights, individual liberties, and due process rights aren't taken away in one single sweep by government. Instead they're taken away one small intrusion at a time. Hitler's Germany wasn't created over night.
The argument made by government, and those who back the government's determination to limit our rights, is that we need to be willing to give up certain basic rights, and as a result of doing that, we will all, some how, be safer, more secure.
I wonder what the Founding Fathers would think about the road that we're traveling down. I believe Thomas Jefferson, John Adams & Ben Franklin, to name a few, would be outraged with what is going on...
Can you imagine the attitude that a Samuel Adams or a Patrick Henry would display concerning the intrusion of government into their lives, the way our government is intruding into ours?
It's the use of a simple license-plate recognition system this week and the use of a far more advanced system next week....What will be going on one year or five years from now?
An argument can be made that we fought the American Revolution for a heck of a lot less reasons....
The message is this, if your coming to Boulder City to drink, cause problems, do drugs, steal STAY THE H... OUT. if your coming to enjoy the culture and town, well Boulder City police is going to keep you honest, but enjoy yourself !
Metro and North Las Vegas already have this technology, and Henderson and Boulder City will be getting it. Guess some of you will never leave your house now.
RACE CAR DIVA
No that is not really true. One reader in a City of over one million, hardly matches one reader in a town of 14,000 where virtually everyone will be scanned. Hardly the case in Las Vegas, and frankly I am not sure they have this exact technology either
Wow all kinds of money for spiffy new cameras, but no money for more officers....hmmmm always something.
Profiling at its finest....I can see a desire for spotting potential stolen vehicles and felony warrants, but outstanding infraction traffic warrants ?
The outstanding warrant per subject issue while matching license plates with registered and legal owners has issues....too much hassle and discrepencies when it comes to databases not updated ...or inactive warrants that are supposed to be deleted which are still active.
I read an article years ago that any vehicle manufactured after 1990 that is built within or shipped to the United States has a hidden microchip embedded within a subframe to where the federal government can track any vehicle if it really wanted to.
Now because of this plate reader technology now being in place in Boulder City, it will have the same problems with other agencies... having to constantly update more overwhelming loads of information databases by dispachers and DMV offices to keep up... and more legit license plates being snagged off of vehicles with many more misuse of displayed license plates to shake a stick at.
CPO, you're a fool if you think these cameras are going to help keep your shiny little Mayberry safe. What arrogance. What you are doing is insulting law abiding citizens; criminals really don't care about your lazy and expensive efforts. Any positive effects of dragnets do not outweigh the negative impact on the rights of individuals to travel. Boulder City is a public place, not a private, gated snob-urb. This issue isn't going to disappear.
Readers: There are technologies available that make your license plate unreadable by electronic means. I suggest anyone who values good, old fashioned privacy and freedom of movement to look into them.
lol @ you "privacy" people. go live in the mountains if you care so much about your privacy
You are videotaped at the market, the pharmacy, pumping gas, sitting at red lights, every convenience store, the bank, within the parking lots and walls of every casino, at Walmart, my dry cleaners even has surveillance. There are traffic cameras at almost every single major intersection in LV, Henderson, and NLV. Anyone who thinks that they currently have privacy once they step out of their homes, is in massive denial. I strongly support the measures BC is taking to make their roads and town safer for law abiding citizens. I firmly believe that these measures will make Boulder City a safer place and less desirable to criminals.
My god the amount of sheep lining up to have every vestage of privacy taken astounds me...all I can think is there must be alot of very fearful people that will trade freedom for security....well they will put you in a box one day tell what to produce for 8-12 hours feed you...keeep you all nice and safe ... let you pair off and procreate....have some minor hobbies and there you go...safety!... SHEEP!!!!
There is no such thing as privacy when you are in public! You are on surveillance ALL THE TIME once you leave home, especially in this town.
henderson said...
"There is no such thing as privacy when you are in public! You are on surveillance ALL THE TIME once you leave home, especially in this town."
You may be correct but I happen to believe that it's time to start taking back our country... Enough is enough. The license-plate recognition system is NOT needed.
The attributes associated with a "privacy filled environment" greatly out weighs the use of such a "big brother intrusion" system...
I think it's time we get serious about crime. Private and public are opposite words. You cannot expect "privacy" once you enter "public" areas. Do you know we already have crime cams downtown where the hookers and drug dealers hang out? They are constantly monitored for activity and the police are ready to pounce. I'm all for eliminating the crime. I have no expectation of privacy when I am out in public. Catch the car theives, catch the drug dealers, catch the prostitutes, and people will eventually find that they are in an area that doesn't tolerate crime. Once they figure that out, guess what...they leave!
If my license plate is scanned I wont even know it. I'd much rather see our crime statistics improve and insurance rates go down.
Right on Henderson. AS far as I am concerned Guns should be BANNED, and everyone should be somehow monitored of kept track of when they leave their property.(accept City officials) This can easily be done with micro chips. Soon only crime around would be domestic. Its a new and safer world coming soon, and Boulder City appears to be on the forefront !
Here's the thing cpo,
The Constitution gives us the right to have firearms. There is no right to privacy when you are in public.
Register your car to an LLC.
http://www.howtobeinvisible.com/
Needed Now more than ever!
"The Constitution gives us the right to have firearms."
The Constitution does no such thing.
Just ask Obama's nominee to the Supreme Court, Sotomayor.
She has ruled that the US Constitution does not give anybody the right to bear arms.
The only thing that will keep your right to bear arms is to vote Republican.
You constitution purists, huh. Well where does it say in the constitution you have the right to guns ? I'll tell you where, it doesn't. US Constitution does not give people the right to bear arms. Read it, you might learn something. Just because someplace somewhere passes a law that differs or clarifies does not change the constitution either. It just means , okay we made this law and its up to someone to sue and challenge the law as being unconstitutional, such as the Natural Born Citizen clause,
The U.S. Constitution, 2nd Amendment:
A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Nevada Constitution Article l, Section II:
Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes.
What exactly in this verbiage confuses you?
This will mean that the Boulder City Police dept. will get bigger! With all the plates they will be running, they will not have enough officers to surround a vehicle. It usually takes at least three cars for a stop sign violation or a jaywalker.
Henderson, I think your the one who is confused, "A well-regulated Militia being necessary" That does not give you the right to carry guns. A militia has the right, and if it wasn't for the enormous political clout of the gun lobby, which is probably the strongest special interest group in this country, this would have been decided in court years ago.The second paragraph is not part of the US constitution, Thank God.
Currently, police officers run plates "at random". What this means is that the officer "randomly" chooses cars to run the plates on based on the condition of the car (economic profiling) based on the appearance of the occupant(s) of the car (ethnicity, age, gender / attractiveness, clothing, etc) or based on pure randomness. The inconsistency of application of the "random plate check" is eliminated by the mechanical process. I'm not crazy about more cameras, and data maintained for a period of time, but I think the ACLU would prefer this over a process that could be used in a biased manner. I know I do. I think the US Supreme Court missed the mark when they allowed plates to be run for no reason at all - used to be (back in the old days) that a copper needed to give a reason for running a plate. Not anymore. I like a system that prevents bias in the plates that are checked.
AKSilvereagle wrote: "I read an article years ago that any vehicle manufactured after 1990 that is built within or shipped to the United States has a hidden microchip embedded within a subframe to where the federal government can track any vehicle if it really wanted to."
It's called On Board Diagnostics, and is used to verify emissions compliance. Portland, OR was experimenting with a system that would receive the OBDIII signal broadcast from vehicles that were being driven. The OBD transmits VIN information on the vehicle being driven, pretty much allowing 224/7 tracing of any vehilce powered up and operating.
cpo,
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Who do you think "the people" are? We the people!
Henderson, join a militia then you have the right, through the constitution. Your right to bear arms is a states issue, . The Nevada constitution clearly allows it, the US not so clear.
So you think that within the U.S. Constitution "the people" and "the people" have different meanings? Can't argue with that nonsense.
cpo -- are you not in Nevada which is the context of this Discussion?
As henderson said "What exactly in this verbiage confuses you?"
And I would add what part of the Fourth Amendment do you need explained to you?
People who have nothing to hide hide nothing. I don't care if they want to snap my plate SO WHAT. Who knows maybe someone who is WRONGLY accused of being in the wrong place at the wrong time will be able to prove it because he was in BC and he has the 'snap' to prove it! It can work both ways ya know.
Yeah, azsk8fan, it sure can work both ways.
Imagine some criminal swaps plates with the set on your car. You take a cruise out to Hoover Dam. The plates get run, you get stopped, arrested, and taken to the pokey.
FUN STUFF, isn't it? Also, it's Friday afternoon, sorry, no bail for you until Monday morning when the judge gets back from fishin'.
Furthermore, did you know that mistakes are made (rarely, I'm sure) by the DMV? Yes! It totally shocked me too!
The history of militia in the United States dates from the colonial era, such as in the American Revolutionary War. Based on the British system, colonial militias were drawn from the body of adult male citizens of a community, town, or local region. Because there were usually few British regulars garrisoned in North America, colonial militia served a vital role in local conflicts, particularly in the French and Indian Wars. Before shooting began in the American War of Independence, American revolutionaries took control of the militia system, reinvigorating training and excluding men with Loyalist inclinations. Regulation of the militia was codified by the Second Continental Congress with the Articles of Confederation. The revolutionaries also created a full-time regular army--the Continental Army--but because of manpower shortages the militia provided short-term support to the regulars in the field throughout the war.
In colonial era Anglo-American usage, militia service was distinguished from military service in that the latter was normally a commitment for a fixed period of time of at least a year, for a salary, whereas militia was only to meet a threat, or prepare to meet a threat, for periods of time expected to be short. Militia persons were normally expected to provide their own weapons, equipment, or supplies, although they may later be compensated for losses or expenditures.
gmag,
Most people that steal your license plate are not courteous enough to stick around and put another plate back on your car. In fact I googled this phenomenon you speak of and there is nothing to indicate that this is a common occurance.
One of the first things that happens when they run your license plate, is they discover the make and model of the car that plate is registered to.
Gunslinger, 100% correct, and frankly more militias maybe a good thing. I could think of plenty of areas where we could use them. Again right to bear arms, other then militias is a states right thing, if it were federal, you could pack your heat in Boston, you cant.
So gunslinger also believes that within the U.S. Constitution "the people" and "the people" have different meanings? Again, can't argue with that nonsense.
henderson:
Did you read my post or did you come up with "So gunslinger also believes that within the U.S. Constitution "the people" and "the people" have different meanings? Again, can't argue with that nonsense" all on your own.
I can state what I believe well enough on my own thank you; read it again for nonsense.
An apology to Gunslinger if I misinterpreted your comments. Perhaps, you can clarify if you believe that the Constitution affords us the right to bear arms.
The Constitution gives us the right to have firearms."
The Constitution does no such thing.
Just ask Obama's nominee to the Supreme Court, Sotomayor.
She has ruled that the US Constitution does not give anybody the right to bear arms..
The only thing that will keep your right to bear arms is to vote Republican.
Henderson, old chap; Of course, you are correct. It was a poor analogy. However, I still disagree with folks being agreeable to the new police tactics.
A little bit at a time, erosion of rights, invasion of privacy...sheer folly, I say.
P.S.
I was pulled over once in another state. The officer actually drew his bloody weapon on me.
It turns out the TABS on the plates had been reported stolen. Numbers were entered incorrectly. It was a bit of a sticky wicket, I will tell you, sir.
That is what I was trying to point out earlier.
$hit happens, and sometimes you are the one left holding the bag.
Did I not read how the crime rate in Boulder City is low and getting lower? I know it has nothing to do with the Police Dept. This comes from the Police Dept. themselves. So let's see, that is alot of money for a low crime city. I would think it would be better invested in a Dounut Shop.