For refusing on givebacks now, will fire union be sorry later?

Wednesday, July 15, 2009 | 2 a.m.

Fire service could suffer from latest cuts (6-28-2009)
Pay vs. jobs (6-26-2009)
Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
Shortfall looms large as fire union holds out (4-23-2009)
It pays EMTs to do I's and cross T's (4-22-2009)
No concessions yet from firefighters (4-12-2009)

The popular image of brave firefighters running into burning buildings, saving people trapped in wrecked vehicles and rescuing cats in trees has helped their union win enviable salaries and benefits.

But experts and local officials say that image could take a hit this week as Clark County firefighters are expected to, in effect, reject the county’s request for wage concessions amid near-record budget shortfalls.

It’s a move that some say could work against the long-term aims of firefighters — who will enter talks with the county for a new contract next year — by weakening support from the public, which pays their salaries, and the elected officials who covet their political endorsements.

“They are negotiating for public taxpayer money, so they, more than most unions ... are walking a fine line trying to get what they think they’re worth,” said Phil Dine, author of the book “State of the Unions,” which has been described as a playbook for an organized labor comeback.

Another labor expert and consultant, who asked not to be identified, said: “I don’t think firefighters are untouchable anymore. I’ve seen these battles flaring up all over the country and there is a lot of resentment against firefighters right now.”

To address its shortfall, Clark County asked departments to cut 5 percent from their budgets over the next two years.

The firefighters’ response so far has been to criticize county spending and propose a fire department capital project be postponed. County officials say the firefighters’ proposal would not yield any useful savings.

Union members are expected to vote on the matter this week.

Firefighters union President Ryan Beaman did not respond to a request for comment.

Meanwhile, other county-funded employees have agreed to salary concessions. Service employees have agreed to cut their wage increases from 3 percent to 1 percent; and police negotiated a one-year deal calling for no wage increases.

County Commissioner Steve Sisolak said he has been flooded with calls and e-mails from constituents who are angry that firefighters have not given up a portion of their raises or benefits to help the county balance its budget.

“They have an incredible reputation, sure,” Sisolak said of firefighters. “But at the same time I’ve got an abundance of constituents who voice to me on a regular basis that they are disappointed that the firefighters have not given any concessions.”

Steve Sisolak

But Jamie Horowitz, a Washington, D.C.-based union consultant, said firefighters have good reason to stand their ground on wage concessions. In the past unions have given ground only to see, once the economy and budgets recovered, that they were never made whole.

“I think unions see very little reason to believe that if you help out, then people will play fair and balance the score when there’s a recovery,” he said.

Commissioner Chris Giunchigliani, who has long supported firefighters and their contracts amid criticism, said she does not think anything the union does this week will hurt it during next year’s contract negotiations. She noted that several county commissioners will be up for reelection in 2010 and will likely be looking for endorsements and support from the union.

Giunchigliani and Commissioners Susan Brager and Lawrence Weekly will likely be running for reelection and Commission Chairman Rory Reid is expected to be running for governor.

Chris Giunchigliani

“It will be a different day ... and we’ll start fresh,” Giunchigliani said. “You’re going to have people running for office, so you’ll have people saying ‘I don’t want this brought up,’ or ‘Let’s hold off on this.’ ”

Indeed, Clark County firefighters have been known to walk door-to-door on behalf of candidates and donate to campaigns.

A Nevada union administrator, who asked not to be identified, said firefighters don’t walk neighborhoods on behalf of candidates much anymore, but “the memory of them doing that remains.”

“Which is to say, they have a good image and you want them on your side,” he said. “It’s why people get all obsessed with having the police and the firefighter endorsements. They always poll very high in terms of popularity.”

But Brager said she expects her position on next year’s contract will largely hinge on what happens now.

“How would I vote if the union does not budge?” she said. “I’m going to think long and hard about that and hope it does not come to that. It sickened and saddened me that we’re cutting social services for our seniors and youth. I’m just hoping that firefighters know we have been there for them, we will continue to look out for their safety ... but everybody needs to chip in.”

In a letter to county administrators, Beaman wrote that the county’s budget problems were fiction and that enough cuts could be made so that employees would not have to suffer. He offered a deal that the county said was no deal at all — it included an offer to give up $4.3 million in security fencing around fire stations.

The county said the $4.3 million is legally targeted for fire department capital projects; saving it doesn’t help any other county department.

Sisolak, who wrote a letter to the union last month telling leaders to keep their concession offer because it would do the county no good, said firefighters’ popularity shouldn’t sway the elected officials who must approve their contract.

“I won’t make policy decisions based on an endorsement,” he said. “You have to base votes on what’s right. So some people get an endorsement, so what?”

Discussion: 114 comments so far…

By NW_Dweller

7/15/09 at 5:54 a.m.

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Sure they should probably take a hit like most everyone else in the valley has taken but I am beginning to wonder by the over abundance of articles on this subject is a smear campaign.

This article does make a good point when it said that once the economy rebounds concessions given up are not usually restored. Like I said, maybe they should give up their increase but maybe they have their reasons... and it may not be greed like the "every other day" articles make it sound.
By cnev

7/15/09 at 6:13 a.m.

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Asking public service to take the hit when times get tough is so low. Citizens think services should remain the same while public employees suffer.
Raise taxes for goodness sake!
Not sales tax -which hits lower income people-business tax, mining,-get realistic!

There never has been a plethora of services available to those less fortunate-if you really believe the old "welfare riches story" exists-you are dreaming-not in Nevada-
go check out the washes on the east side of Las Vegas for the residents living the "fat cat" life-
go up near Sunrise Mountain where people drop off animals because they don't want them anymore, or burn cars-
Firefighters deserve a living wage, the equipment needed to do the job and the support needed to do it.
Quit complaining about excessive wasteful dollars and read the national reports-
Las Vegas is one sorry city in one sorry state when it comes to public and human services.
By Future

7/15/09 at 6:19 a.m.

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"Commissioner Chris Giunchigliani, who has long supported firefighters and their contracts amid criticism, said she does not think anything the union does this week will hurt it during next year's contract negotiations.

She noted that several county commissioners will be up for reelection in 2010 and will likely be looking for endorsements and support from the union."

Maybe anyone that accepts a Fire Union endorsements will be voted out.

I would not vote for anyone that accept that endosement or their money - rejection is a winning strategy
By isthis4real

7/15/09 at 6:28 a.m.

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the firefighters have a living wage....they make enough money to withstand any further increases or drops in the cost of living....they have gotten a cola raise every year of their contract and quite frankly i think they are extremely overpaid for what they do.

nevada ranks among the highest paid in the country for police and fire...look at the list of what eachof them have meade and then compare it to the senior citizens that live off of social security! a lot of these guys have side businesses when they are not working...

i would love to spend my time around a firehouse and going to the gym to work out....

i think that the greed should be set aside and a look at the budgets considered in their decision..i for one will not back them for a raise in the future.....

it is time for the governments in nevada to take a better look at the waste that they have in their budgets and cut all the frivolous spending....learn to live on a lesser budget!!!
By teacher

7/15/09 at 7:01 a.m.

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I just get sick when I read about what these guys make compared to what we make.
By Martel

7/15/09 at 7:30 a.m.

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To be fair, there really is no room for feelings of entitlement by anybody in this economy. As a firefighter once told me when asked what he did all day, "We sleep till we get hungry and then eat till we get sleepy". That statement though said in jest has a ring of truth and firefighters who are honest will admit they have it uncommonly good compared to the actual work they do. There are literally thousands of qualified people in this valley who would take a job as a firefighter for much less than what current fire fighters make. Firemen know it, and that point is driven home every time new fire positions open up and they see the long lines of applicants vying for these few positions.
By neiman1

7/15/09 at 8:58 a.m.

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Contract out for fire protection. Let a private firm bring in qualified employees laid off from around the country and send our prima donnas down the road.
By jaesun

7/15/09 at 9:14 a.m.

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1. vote for anyone who takes a stand. 2. not voting for those taking a firefighter endorsement
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 9:17 a.m.

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teacher,

why shouldn't a firefighter make 3 or 4 times what u make? just because u have a 4-year college degree and are charged with the education of our youth?

these guys are HEROES!!!!

(please note sarcasm....)

;)
By Fed_Up_Taxpayer

7/15/09 at 10:05 a.m.

Comment removed by staff.
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 11:19 a.m.

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HAHA fed up, maybe the same person who is monitoring this thread could also look at your threads on the LVRJ and delete those too! WHINER! It's so easy for all of you people to sit around and talk about how the firefighters do nothing but you really have no idea! I love how you quote other firefighters and what they supposedly say but when in reality your "friend" is at the most (if existant) a firefighter who is in the Summerlin area who has put his years in and now chooses to be at one of the slower stations, that is if he even is a firefighter here in Las Vegas. You say there is a ring of truth to it, but why because you THINK so? You can't compare other cities with ours because every city does things differently. Many don't even respond to medical calls at all. BTW many, many firefighters are educated with a degree as well not to mention the fact that they are constantly receiving more and more training and education throughout their careers. There's more to putting out a fire than just spraying water on it. It is a science and not just any dummy could do it, but that just goes to show how informed the public isn't!
By Fed_Up_Taxpayer

7/15/09 at 12:05 p.m.

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Apparently, future RN had my previous post removed most likely because I used some not too politically correct expressions to criticize her/his beloved firefighters. So let me reiterate the post without the comments that offended her/his sensitive eyes.

Firefighters are no longer heroes--they are greedy takers of the public dole.

I will be looking to see if my county commissioner accepts endorsement from the firefighter's union or the police union, and if so, that commissioner will not get my vote.
By davidwayneosedach

7/15/09 at 12:11 p.m.

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How difficult would it be to hire all new fire fighters who would be glad with their wages? We are in the midst of the deepest recession since the Great Depression. Everyone - including the fire fighter's union - have to give in.
By Stop_and_think

7/15/09 at 12:19 p.m.

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A teacher fresh out of college makes more money then a rookie firefighter. A teacher with no experience and a bachelors degree starts at $33,734 per year. However a teacher is only required to work for 184 days per year at 7 hours and 11 minutes per day. That is a total of 1322 hours at $25.52 per hour. A firefighter rookie starts at $51,521.60, but works 2080 hours per year wich equals $24.77 per hour. Also firfighters must work 56 hours per week before they recieve time and a half. Teachers have it made, they work a 35 hour work week for 9 months a year.
By Fed_Up_Taxpayer

7/15/09 at 12:19 p.m.

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I would like to see Clark County go into reorganization bankruptcy. In the process, eliminate all contracts with public employee unions including those with the firefighters and police. Set up new pay scales and employee plans at reasonable and affordable levels with no union involvement. Do not even recognize any union organization attempts.

If current employees do not want to go along with the new plans, fire them. Then hire new employees that are willing to work under the new plans and rules.

I would also like to see firefighters set up on a part fulltime paid and part volunteer system. It would be nice to have an entirely volunteer system, but that is not practical. So have a core of fulltime firefighters such as fire truck drivers and others that are critical to the operation. The balance should be volunteers.

Perhaps this would get us out of our current fiscal predicament and allow our county government to go forward without the excessive burden of grossly over-compensated county workers.
By lvlifer

7/15/09 at 12:23 p.m.

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And Fedup, what exactly would you do with the 120,000 medical calls that the fire department responds to? You want volunteer and part time medical techs being the first to treat your family huh. Medicine is a science use it or loose it. And don't say something stupid like medic west and amr can respond. They dont have the staff and their avg response time is up to 3 min slower than CCFD. Do you actually have the ability to have a logical thought without throwing out crap?
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 12:24 p.m.

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Please read this, just so you can get an understanding.

I wish you could know what it is like to search a burning bedroom for trapped children at 3 AM, flames rolling above your head, your palms and knees burning as you crawl, the floor sagging under your weight as the kitchen below you burns.

I wish you could comprehend a wife's horror at 6 in the morning as I check her husband of 40 years for a pulse and find none. I start CPR anyway, hoping to bring him back, knowing intuitively it is too late. But wanting his wife and family to know everything possible was done to try to save his life.
I wish you knew the unique smell of burning insulation, the taste of soot-filled mucus, the feeling of intense heat through your turnout gear, the sound of flames crackling, the eeriness of being able to see absolutely nothing in dense smoke-sensations that I've become too familiar with.

I wish you could read my mind as I respond to a building fire "Is this a false alarm or a working fire? How is the building constructed? What hazards await me? Is anyone trapped?" Or to an EMS call, "What is wrong with the patient? Is it minor or life-threatening? Is the caller really in distress or is he waiting for us with a 24 or a gun?"

I wish you could be in the emergency room as a doctor pronounces dead the beautiful five-year old girl that I have been trying to save during the past 25 minutes, who will never go on her first date or say the words, "I love you Mommy" again.
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 12:25 p.m.

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...Continued...

I wish you could know the frustration I feel in the cab of the engine, the driver with his foot pressing down hard on the pedal, my arm tugging again and again at the air horn chain, as you fail to yield the right-of-way at an intersection or in traffic. When you need us however, your first comment upon our arrival will be, "It took you forever to get here!" I wish you could know my thoughts as I help extricate a girl of teenage years from the remains of her automobile. "What if this was my daughter, sister, my best friend? What were are her parents reactions going to be when they open the door to find a police officer with hat in hand?"

I wish you could know how it feels to walk in the back door and greet my parents and family, not having the heart to tell them that I nearly did not come back from the last call.

I wish you could feel the hurt as people verbally, and sometimes physically, abuse us or belittle what I do, or as they express their attitudes of "It will never happen to me." or "That is such an easy job!"

I wish you could realize the physical, emotional and mental drain or missed meals, lost sleep and forgone social activities, in addition to all the tragedy my eyes have seen.

I wish you could know the brotherhood and self-satisfaction of helping save a life or preserving someone's property, or being able to be there in time of crisis, or creating order from total chaos.
I wish you could understand what it feels like to have a little boy tugging at your arm and asking, "Is Mommy okay?" Not even being able to look in his eyes without tears from your own and not knowing what to say. Or to have to hold back a long time friend who watches his buddy having CPR done on him as they take him away in the Medic Unit.It's a sensation that I have become too familiar with.

Unless you have lived with this kind of life, you will never truly understand or appreciate who I am, we are, and what our job really means to us"I wish you could though.
By lvlifer

7/15/09 at 12:50 p.m.

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Fed UP.

Im sorry I just comprehended another one of your ignorant comments.
"The county should file for pre arranged bankruptcy."
WTH are you talking about? The county is not behind on or in any way delinquent on anything. We have 175 million sitting in the coffers in a rainy day fund. And your best thought is to just throw it and the counties credit rating away! All to get rid of some contracts? WoW! Im thoroughly impressed by your ranting. Hey maybe this paper is hiring!
By rhodeislandred

7/15/09 at 12:54 p.m.

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I am absoulutely floored with the amount of ignorance from some of you. Where on earth do think you will find 700 volunteer firefighter and paramedics willing to work a 24 hour shift or even a regular shift! god bless those that do volunteer for the rurals of this great state of Nevada they do a remarkable job. But I guarantee that none of them would not want to do this job for free in the Las Vegas valley! I couldnt agree more with future RN! just take one day to walk in their shoes, be away from your wife/husband and kids for 24 hours. Not all shifts are a cake walk and there are certainly more challenging days than others. It sounds like you are all hypocrites to me and would gladly take the job of a fire service professional if you were given the chance. But because YOU never put forth the effort to condition your mind and body you sit back and judge those who have. Shame on you. This smearing of those who will be there to save you in an five minute window has got to stop! Stop and think about what you are saying... stop and think about those you hurt with your words.... and stop and think about who will be standing next to you or your love ones in case of an emergency.
By jaesun

7/15/09 at 1:59 p.m.

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oh please RN and all you firefighter loafers. the police put their lives on the line just as much, if not more, and still did their part.
By shrek

7/15/09 at 1:59 p.m.

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I live in a rural area of southern Utah. Closest Fire Department is an all 'volunteer' department.

At one time I was a member of the 'volunteer' fire department. If my house caught on fire, it would probably be gone by time they arrived. But I am fully insured and my insurance for my home is $333 per year. For my Vegas home it is over $600 per year and the fire dept is close by.

I vote to abolish the paid Fire Fighters and go ALL volunteer. At the very least, let it go to bid to the lowest bidder. Each individual job should be put out to bid.

Maybe if they did this for ALL government positions they would get their budgets balanced.
By Martel

7/15/09 at 2:03 p.m.

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To future RN:
What a horrible painful, depressing, physically, mentally and emotionally draining picture you paint of firefighting.
Why would anybody even want to do that job?... If you're just an adrenelin junkie, then I'd wager you'd do the same job for half the price.
Also why is it that whenever a first responder feels like they are being threatened, they always pull out the emotional appeals; threat to family; threat to life; threat to property?
Let's talk about this rationally.
The real question is: Could the safety of the public be protected without spending the amount of money negotiated by unions on behalf of their members? The simple answer is YES!
Stop and think:
When comparing firefighters' to teachers'salaries you failed to mention that fire fighters are beneficiaries of higher PERS contribution rates, can retire after 20 years instead of 30 and typically work a schedule that includes sleeping hours and allows them to have 4 or 5 days in a row off--plenty of time to go out and take a second job to earn additional income. I know many guys who became firefighters for this very reason.
By lvlifer

7/15/09 at 2:26 p.m.

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Shrek:

Again. As a voluneteer how many medical calls did you respond too. CCFD alone not counting City, henderson and NLV responded to over 120 thousand medical calls last year. Do that with volunteers huh? GOOD CALL! Wait for it theres more. The prevention side also responded to 128thousand inspection based calls. They are part of this too. Lets get rid of them too.

JAESUN:

Nice comment Cops do put their lives on the lines. But in regards to the part they did you need more facts. What metro recieved for giving up their 3% was a greater cost to the county over the years than what it would have cost the county to just pay the 3%. Things such as larger degree bonuses, spanish bonuses, larger cola next year, so on. GET A CLUE!
By rhodeislandred

7/15/09 at 2:38 p.m.

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Most of you keep saying the same thing but miss the point entirely. The union contract is approved by the county commissioners as well as the union members. This is not a one sided debate. This contract has been good for a long long time. I have yet to meet the fire fighter that retires at 20 years! they take it to the limit and they should its a benefit offered to them. They do the job, and as RN said it has the good and bad just as every job does. They put their lives on the line just the police do they are at the same calls and all have the same inherit risk. Every job has risk these jobs are negotiated on and are paid to be skilled to save your live! Someone early on mentioned that our loss of life incidents are lower than those of the national adverage and that we should go to the the private sector to collect fire fighters and paramedics!! what a joke. You really want more of these folks dying. I say that it shows that the Fire Chiefs in the Las Vegas valley are doing a fantastic job in keeping their employees safe. There is proper training and guidelines in place which you will not get if you have 700 volunteers! OMG I cant even imagine.
By BlurescueARFF

7/15/09 at 2:43 p.m.

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I find it very difficult to read both the article and the posts attached to the article without getting fairly emotional. I have been in Emergency Services most of my life and all of my adult life. I am old enough to remember when Firemen put the WET STUFF ON THE HOT STUFF and that was it. The years have gone by and we are now called Fire Fighters and are a very versatile group of men and women that put your lives before ours. Not only when we are on shift, but every day of the year, every hour of the day. Each Fire Fighter generally goes through a recruit or rookie class that is basically in layman's terms Firefighter 101. This class is generally about 1000 hours of intense instruction. These 1000 hours of class, doesn't include physical fitness, physical fitness testing, fire fighter practical testing or your book knowledge testing. This is to get you to the basic level fire fighter. If you talk to any Fire Instructor, the basics won't get you anywhere but out of rookie school. The real school starts upon your first assignment. While working you now have one year to complete Firefighter II, Emergency Medical Technician Basic, Hazardous Material Operator, all of which generally must be completed on your own time. This is not to include the recurring training that needs to be completed during every shift to ensure that your Fire Fighter Certification is what we call proficient and up to date. As an EMT, you need another set of classes and the amount depends on your level of certification. It is figured that each fire fighter is responsible for about 1000 hours of recertification classes per year. The average fire fighter spends twice as much time in the classroom than they do fighting fire or performing medical duties. Today's Fire Fighter has to be a structural expert, ensuring that they understand what happens when that wall in the middle of the house falls down during a fire. They have to be a confined space expert, to know how to pull you out of that manhole that you fell in. A high angle rescue specialist to go up on the outside of the building to save the construction worker that just fell and is suspended twenty floors above the ground. They have to be vehicle experts to know how to cut you out of that car you just smashed up. Oh, and if you don't believe me stand in front of a new car while it is burning and I am pretty sure as the bumper lets loose it will take you out at the knees. I have only touched on a small amount of information, because today's fire fighters have to be experts in just about everything.

You may not like what Fire fighters get paid, but I can say without a doubt, that fire fighters don't get paid enough for what they need to know today.

Next time you decide to make a comment about something, do your homework.
By rhodeislandred

7/15/09 at 2:50 p.m.

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Kudos to you ARFF.. and thank you for the good job you do :-)
By JahReb

7/15/09 at 3:01 p.m.

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Martel, 100% correct. Everyone agrees that firefighters provide a valuable service to the community. Stipulated.

However, it begs a simple question - can we provide the same services for less? And I think the answer is a pretty resounding, 'yes'.

Also, how many of these 'heroes' would stay firefighters if they had to switch salaries with teachers?

Methinks, not too many!

Personally speaking, all 3 of the firefighters I know joined because of one reason and one reason only - and that wasn't to run into burning buildings and be Mr. Hero!!!
By getalife

7/15/09 at 3:22 p.m.

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Future RN, while I admire your defense of firefighters, are you hooked up to a kool-aid IV?

The clauses written into the union contract are completely outrageous.

I don't think the raises should go forward. I think the firefighters should have offered concessions.

Besides, they will make it up in call-backs due to manditory minimum staffing guidelines.

What I can't stand anymore is this stupid entitlement mentality that pervades out Country.

Oh, look at me I am a hero, you have to pay me to go to the gym because when I get a six-day I have a part-time job to go to and that employer won't let me go to the gym while I am working.

Please, enough is enough.

Las Vegas is too big for effective volunteer FF's, but on the same hand it cannot be blackmailed because politicians want an endorsement.
By cindyd

7/15/09 at 3:41 p.m.

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Everyone is loosing site of the issue. Yes, firefighters, paramedics, cops, etc. are all highly trained and specialized people that do a VERY difficult job. (don't judge someone until you have walked in thier shoes).

The point is that this same thing happened after 911. Everyone in the country went into a major panic and the airlines (just as an example) cried poverty and said they would have to shut down if the employees didn't take pay cuts. All the unions immediately jumped in and took 10-30% pay cuts. That was 8 years ago and those people are still making less than they were in 2001 - and will never get that money back. The point here is that while the money was rolling in to the County all these years, they were spending and spending like there was no tomorrow. As soon as the economy takes a dip- they are immediately asking for pay cuts across the board - even though the employees have taken voluntary leave without pay and have offered up to take a cut in hours each week to save jobs or to work a 4 day work week, etc. The County's answer to this probelem is to quickly ask the employees to do more with less, take pay cuts and work harder than ever - but has not take cost cutting measures in many places that they could.
The Firefighters union was smart to sit back and try and figure out creative ways to help the budget without immediately cutting the wages of their members. Isn't that what union officials are supposed to do? Protect their members? Those employees who rushed to give back salaries did so in the effort to keep from laying off fellow workers. Workers are going to be laid off starting next month anyway.
This is a way for the finance folks to get back wages while everyone is in panic mode and once things level out, and they will, the county will go back to spending and spending on frivilous items just like they have in the past. Just ask them how much the annual County picnic cost each year?
So - Kudos to the firefighters union for sticking up for their employees until the County could come to the table with reasonable numbers to show what needed to be done.
And trust me - when you have to dial 911 for a firefighter or a medic or a police officer, you won't be worried about how much they are paid, just dang happy they showed up and could fix the problem!
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 3:48 p.m.

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firefighters retirement packages need to be renegotiated too. right now there are firefighters retiring in their late 40's who get OVER 100k per year in retirement pay!!! this because retirement is based on a percentage of what they made the last 3 years, including the overtime which almost all of our firefighters get.

this is paid for by us taxpayers, many of whom have lost most of our retirement savings in the stock market collapse.

simply put, the system is being strained to the breaking point. where else can u get such a generous retirement package? a serviceman who puts in 30 years might recieve between $25k to $50k per year depending on rank.

how is it fair for us the taxpayer to pay a retired firefighter over $100k per year from the age of 49 until they die 20, 30 or even 50 years later?

retirement should only be based on a percentage of their "base pay" (as it is for a military serviceman), not the pay they were able to reap counting overtime the 3 years before retirement.
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 3:59 p.m.

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before anybody asks me to provide a source:

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article...

from the article: Captain Michael Dillingham, retired fire captain; "The PERS calculator says the former captain will get about $104,549 a year for retiring from a job that paid a (base) salary of $89,368 in the last full year he worked it."
By Stop_and_think

7/15/09 at 4:19 p.m.

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Hey average joe you are WRONG about overtime figured in firefighters pensions. Overtime is not calculated in their pension. Look it up at www.nvpers.org. Your jealousy is painfully obvious. I'm sorry your stuck working the swing shift at 7-11, but that's the life you choose.
By jaesun

7/15/09 at 4:24 p.m.

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<<Nice comment Cops do put their lives on the lines. But in regards to the part they did you need more facts. What metro recieved for giving up their 3% was a greater cost to the county over the years than what it would have cost the county to just pay the 3%. Things such as larger degree bonuses, spanish bonuses, larger cola next year, so on. GET A CLUE!>>

oh, so you spend money to save money? that's a new way of thinking!

/rollseyes
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 4:31 p.m.

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Let me address a few points:

First off, everyone always wants to talk about how there are plenty of "qualified" people lined up for these firefighting jobs and that these people would be more than willing to take these jobs for less pay than our current firefighters. You're right, there are a lot of people that test for these fire positions, but they obviously aren't as qualified or they would have gotten hired. Also, the fact that the firefighters do receive a decent pay might have a little bit to do with the line of people waiting to take the test for the firefighting positions. Now, how about we tell them that we are only going to offer you $40,000 a year for the same position that you originally wanted. I have a feeling the line may get significantly shorter! What do you think?

As for everyone whining about the firefighters working out, how about you invest in a policy and procedure book for the firefighters? How about the fact that it is MANDATORY for them to get at least 1 hour in of gym time during their shift? Hhhmmm....not that that information matters, because the same people will keep crying about it even after they've been informed on that policy. And, when the firefighters do go work out they have their radios with them and if they get a call they still respond.

Why wouldn't the taxpayers be upset about the ridiculous spending going on with the county and the city. It's ridiculous that any workers at all are being asked to take cuts when offices have weekly flower arrangements, magazine subscriptions, a subscription to our biased local newspaper, when people are putting lunches and dinners on their city/county credit cards, oh and getting paid for these "business lunches".

The firefighters have 4 (city) or 6 (county) days off in a row but hey, teachers have how many days off a year, yet they still receive a paycheck year around. And, just before you criticize, I come from a home with a mother and father who are teachers (one elementary and one high school) You want to talk about how firefighters can get a second job during their days off. First off, why should they have to take a second job when they are already working 56 hrs. minimum a week? And hey, how about the fact that the teachers have approximately 3 months out of the year where they could get a second job?
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 4:32 p.m.

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One last thing, for you fools who think a volunteer service would work, picture this. A volunteer firefighter in this city would take how many minutes just to get down to the station then how long to wait for everyone else to get there, then how long to get to the call, not to mention that how well are these "volunteers" going to be trained for the type of work they are about to do? And, hopefully they are not working their normal jobs, because I'm guessing that during this recession they're employers are looking for a reason to get rid of them and they are not going to be allowed to just leave for a call. And, don't think that volunteers are going to be sitting at a fire station waiting for a call, away from their families on their only days off. Everyone form a line for the volunteer fire job. Who wants to go pick up the 500 lb. guy covered in his own crap because he fell on the way to the toilet? Who wants to run into that burning building, over there..for free? Don't worry there's no way you can get cancer from those fumes, their not toxic, just ask the taxpayers. Okay next call, who wants to go downtown and break up the fight between the two drunk dudes. One of them is bleeding and who knows what kind of nasty diseases he's carrying. Okay last call for the night, someone wanna go work a baby that was found at the bottom of her pool? She probably won't make it, but hey we can try. You find 1500 volunteers willing to do all that. HA, good luck!
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 4:49 p.m.

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stop and think,

so is the entire article I linked a vicious fraud aimed at cutting our heroes off at the knees??!!!

omigod have i been duped????!!!!

so this Captain Michael Dillingham who retired from the North Las Vegas Fire Dept and rakes in $104,549 every year of TAXPAYER money must be a fictional character?????

fascinating. thanks for setting the record straight. heck lets give 'em all another "cost of living" raise! the rest of us taxpayers can just drive our cars for an extra 2 years and put our kids in community college instead of sending them to a 4-year university.

did i get the "formula" wrong? that's NOT the point. the point is that their final and FOREVER annual retirement pay is based on their earnings their final few years of work. hence the practice of SPIKING as outlined in the article I linked. this was never intended when the retirement system was set up. it is a way discovered by these taxpayer funded employees to "game the system".
By Martel

7/15/09 at 4:52 p.m.

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Come on Future RN, don't get so emotional. Everybody understands the risks, the horrifying scenarios, the training required and the value of Firefighters to public safety and the general welfare of citizens.
Your anecdotes abut 500 pound guys and feces may elicit gut feelings, but they don't address the real issue.
The question again is: Can the public be served and protected at less cost than we are currently paying? And again, the answer is yes.
Other cities don't pay their firefighters as much as Clark County does and those fine men and women are just as dedicated, just as highly trained and just as willing to give all for a job they love. I know because I travel throughout the country meeting with and assisting police officers, fire personnel and other first responders.
By lvlifer

7/15/09 at 5:04 p.m.

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just an average joe.

I know your average. And im not really arging with you. But try to stay on topic. This is not an article about North Las Vegas.. Its CCFD they are seperate. So, try and focus and have RELEVANT information.
By getalife

7/15/09 at 5:10 p.m.

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Stop and Think,

You are incorrect, and I mean incorrect!

Firefighter retirement pay is calculated by INCLUDING all forms of overtime.

I personally know two recently retired firefighters who are juicing the system based solely on spiked wages. They are in fat city based on the overly generous retirement system.

You can dream all you want but in the end; it is what it is.
By lvlifer

7/15/09 at 5:13 p.m.

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Come on MARTEL!

You can find an idiotic reference for every public position across the country. Why would I want to be a Clark county commisioner here when I can make 50% of the pay being a commisioner in Montana. That same idiot response go for Dr's too? Remember they work for UMC and are public employees, maybe we should match DR pay with low pays in other parts of the country. The Fact is our pays our higher and we recruit people from all over the country, because of it. Your right for Police and Fire we shouldnt want to try and attract the BEST candidates from across the US, we should go to the lowest bidder. Then we could have the same public safety as Detriot or New Orleans. Can something always be done cheaper yes! Would we even have this conversation if the county approved the hiring of 100 new firefighters so overtime would never be issued and we would have filler crews, sure. Then we have 100 more salaries, retirements and healthcares, but we wouldnt have stupid OT discussions. And Firefighters would get only their base salary of $51000. You get what you pay for mate.
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 5:16 p.m.

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Yo Joe! Check this quote! "The chamber proposed changing the law to consider only an employee's base pay in calculating retirement pay and over the last five years of employment instead of the present three years of highest pay. A compromise retained the three-year calculation basis but added the 10 percent-per-year speed limit on PERS-eligible wage increases over the last five years. Callback pay will be eliminated from calculations; overtime pay was eliminated years ago". This is a DIRECT quote from your article, so what was your argument again?? I don't mind debating the facts with you Joe, just make sure your facts are straight before you bring them to the table. Did you have a hard time reading through this long article? I can't imagine that you read the whole thing otherwise you wouldn't have posted it.

Martel - Can we find people to do the work for less? Ya, probably until they know exactly what they're getting themselves into. Unfortunately most people like you and people who are "lined up" for these jobs, have not clue what the job really entails. Fighting fire may be what these people want to do, but unfortunately as BlueRescue already mentioned that is not all a firefighter does. Think about this, if I was an astronaut needing a space shuttle, do I want the person with the lowest bid to build my space shuttle? Probably not. The price is low for a reason.
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 5:18 p.m.

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It's funny to me how EVERYONE knows a firefighter who has said something to support the point that they are making. RIGHT!
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 5:29 p.m.

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lvlifer,

I stand corrected. the CCFD, Clark County Fire Department, IS the same dept, either in North Las Vegas or Las Vegas. North Las Vegas is IN Clark County.

so the article stands. SAME FIRE DEPT.

get it? is is more relevant now? or are u going to try to find another excuse to poo-poo the facts?
By Martel

7/15/09 at 5:34 p.m.

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Come On lvlifer!
In case you didn't notice, these are abnormal times and everyone seems willing to make concessions but the CCFD.
Where's the team spirit? Concern for the community? One for all and all for One?
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 5:36 p.m.

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Actually Joe, all past arguments aside CCFD and NLVFD are completely different as is LVFR. Stop now before you make a fool of yourself.
By lvlifer

7/15/09 at 5:44 p.m.

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Really Martel.

Changing the topic a little now huh?

You have been sitting in on thier meetings huh? You really think that the CCFD union is not going to the table with ANY concessions. Sounds like phoey to me.. These articles all seem very one sided. The reason probably is becuase the union is not allowed to talk about closed door meetings. So, the paper is free to print whatever it wants, to help readership.. I would hope they would recognize a political firestorm if they saw it.
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 5:44 p.m.

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futureRN,

honest mistake. I went to the CCFD website. I clicked the link to their station map. they show 9 or 10 stations IN NORTH LAS VEGAS. you can click on each station and it gives you an address.

again, this is under the CCFD official website.

is there a completely separate dept in North Las Vegas? I guess there is. if this is the case, this would appear to be one more example of government waste. even if u argue separate smaller depts might function more efficiently than a single county wide dept, why have overlapping fire stations in the same cities? obviously this increases costs to the taxpayer.

but that doesn't change the focus of this discussion. we as taxpayers simply cannot afford to, nor should we be asked to, foot the bill for these salaries 2, 3 or even 4 times the median salary in our city, and then foot the bill for a retirement package virtually unmatched in the world!!
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 5:56 p.m.

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GET THE FACTS JOE! NLVFD is paid for by the the City of North Las Vegas just like LVFR is paid for by the City of Las Vegas not Clark County. You are the one who changed the focus by talking about another fire department that you knew NOTHING about and trying to say it was the policies of CCFD. You can't have it both ways.
By Martel

7/15/09 at 5:56 p.m.

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We'll just have to wait and see won't we?
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 5:58 p.m.

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lvlifer,

if u think these articles "help readership" it may be because many of us taxpayers are waking up to how overpaid these public servants are.

the firefighters here have it pretty good. no 150 year old 6 story brownstones or skyscrapers built 70 years ago before modern building code dictated the type of state of the art fire suppression systems that are built into our casinos. the reason firefighters don't get killed in the line of duty here is NOT because they are better trained, smarter, or more qualified than firefighters in New York, Chicago, or San Franciso. it's because it's SAFER to be a firefighter here with our urban sprawl and modern construction.

and yet the MAJORITY of our firefighters "earn" taxpayer supported incomes in the mid-6-figures?

the firefighters are cutting their own throats. their self serving interests in the midst of the worst economy most of us have ever seen are garnering the attention of the public. and many of us are realizing the patent unfairness of public employees making 3 or 4 times the median income, with a sweetheart retirement plan to boot.

they don't help their rapport with the public they serve when everyday we see multiple $40,000 to $50,000 vehicles with the "professional firefighter" tag. you can only rub John Q. Public's nose in it for so long, before you get some backlash.

as the saying goes, we're sick and tired of it, and we're not gonna take it anymore!
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 6:02 p.m.

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futureRN,

your point being???? that the firefighters of north las vegas make much much more than the firefighters of CCFD?

I'm not trying to "have it both ways". i acknowledged my honest mistake. doesn't change the fact about firefighters compensation in ALL depts in Clark County being totally out of whack with firefighters compensation in the rest of the country.

I will continue to try to be respectful to you. obviously this is a very emotional issue for you.
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 6:08 p.m.

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also, apparently my mistake was writing Captain Michael Dillingham was OF the North Las Vegas Fire Dept.

he was in the article about the Clark County Fire Dept, and rereading the article I see no mention of North Las Vegas, so apparently he did retire from CCFD.

honest mistake. doesn't change the focus of the discussion either way.
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 6:15 p.m.

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You made an honest mistake, but it goes to show how easily you throw out incorrect information. It's not about the mistake that you made this time. It's about all the other times that you have misled others into believing you somehow know what you are talking about. You, just an average Joe, supposedly know what goes on with our firefighters, what they do during their shifts, whether or not a cancer has come from their toxins they've inhaled over a 25 year career, heck over a 2 year career. I personally know guys (yes plural) who have been on the department and are in their late 20's early 30's and have cancer. ALL of them thyroid cancer. Quincidental? I think not. But you wanna sit around and tell everyone how things are even though you have no first hand knowledge. This "honest mistake" you made was made because you can't wait to find more "facts" about our corrupt fire department so that you can make them look bad. This time though, you were proved wrong. It's hard to prove to others that you are wrong about the other things you are saying, because nowhere is it written what a firefighter actually does everyday. I can only say it from experience. Many firefighters in other cities that you say are paid lower are partially paid lower because they don not go on half as many calls as our guys do. They wouldn't know what to do with a medical call if someone's life depended on it. Those cities are the cities where they sit around and do nothing all day until a fire comes. Those guys are the ones who do all the things that you say our firefighters do. But you are not informed properly. You are angry that someone else is going to have a better retirement than you. Someone else who may be younger than you, who chose a different career path than you is bringing home a fatter paycheck than you are. BOO HOO!! It's never to late to make a career change, right?
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 6:20 p.m.

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Just an FYI, the firefighter that you speak of retired in 2007 and since 2007 the rules of retirement have changed and the so called "spiking" you speak of is impossible now. Get over the past!
By thrillseeker

7/15/09 at 6:48 p.m.

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What you've been reading is a smear campaign. When times get tough management in every industry attempts to get Unions to give back things that they fought hard for in negotiations. Clark County has a legally binding contract with these men and women. Simply because times are tough doesn't mean that they should be obligated to allow their employer to renege on provisions in the contract. This began with the Chamber of Commerce attempting to keep the state from enacting more taxes on the businesses that they represent by focusing peoples attention on public employees. At the same time Clark County didn't want the State to grab their money either so they cried poverty. Well, the State took the money. Clark County was successful at getting some labor unions to capitulate without asking them to cut their own non essential spending. The Fire Fighters Union have been attempting to get Clark County to cut this unnecessary spending prior to giving back their pay increase. Clark County will not budge. Why would they when they have Mr. Schoenmann working out of the Clark County Government Center writing one sided articles that fire you all up. These fire fighters aren't idiots. They live in and amongst you people. They can see that the way they are portrayed isn't making them look very good. They do care! They just want Clark County to stop spending millions of dollars on items that are of no use to the citizens and visitors. The organizations who readily gave up their raises should be helping them get Clark County to spend it's revenue more wisely.
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 6:48 p.m.

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there u go again with more personal attacks.

I made a simple clerical error in this case which I quickly acknowledged. any you keep trying to make a big deal of it to divert attention from the issue.

any why do u insist on trying to attack me or my career choice which you no nothing of? one thing I can assure you, I am NOT in a taxpayer supported position, and I pay MY fair share of taxes. it doesn't matter if I make twice what a firefighter makes, or if I earn just above minimum wage digging ditches. the fact that I am a taxpaying citizen gives me the right to voice my opinion when we are discussing the salaries of taxpayer funded positions.

you are NOT helping win any more supporters with your shrill cries and romantic portrayals of day to day firefighting being straight out of hollywood. you like to make it sound like EVERY call is a life or death drama. give us all a break. i've been in the vegas valley for almost a decade. i've had the misfortune of being in a single car accident and totalling my car, and my wife had a driver pull in front of her against a light in another incident. the incident with my wife happened 3 miles from my house, she called me and I arrived in 5 minutes. both times firefighters arrived, both an engine and a paramedic/ambulance. both times no medical care was needed. both times 2 firefighters, who were both very nice and professional, got out and stood around with me, while another 4 to 6 sat in the air conditioned truck with bored looks on their faces. they left after 30 or 40 minutes. i've spoken with several friends who've had accidents ranging from fender benders to major car damage. same experience. firefighters were very nice, but essentially did nothing.

i'm NOT implying ALL their calls are like this, but for you to imply that all of their calls are a life or death situation is simply ludicrous.

and the abuse of retirement is NOT a "thing of the past". the new policies, which are still MUCH more generous than any private sector or US military retirement plan, only count for NEWLY HIRED firefighters, so we won't see any savings, as minute as they might be, for another 20 years. so calm down, the sweetheart retirement deal of your husband has been "grandfathered".
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 6:59 p.m.

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LOL! Just one more fact that you are clearly wrong on. I am not married to a firefighter, in fact I'm not even married! But hey Joe, you are really good at coming up with the "facts" aren't you. You are wrong about their retirement no matter how many ways you try and say it. There are guys now that are retired that they are trying to take away some of their PERS. You may say not, but you've already proven how true your facts are. You always speak of this romantic thing, but there is nothing romantic about a firefighters position :) at least not the real position. Maybe the one you imagine. And, where and when have I ever said that all of their calls are life or death situations? Did you not see my above description. Picking up a 500 lb. man covered in his own poo! HAHA! So dangerous! And romantic! An engine and ambulance arrived at your little car accident because it is a policy along with many other things. You don't seem to understand that though. Would you have felt better if the other 4-6 who were following standard procedures would have sat in the truck with no a/c on? It's comments like that that disgust me. Anything you can do or say to make these men and women look like crap!
By thrillseeker

7/15/09 at 7:46 p.m.

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teacher,

You guys missed an opportunity to have an actual Union represent you. The Teamsters were willing to help you get the things you need. The "hausfrau's" that are running your Union now are inept. They got with CCSD Management to keep the Teamsters out. I'd try to get them involved again if I were you.
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 7:49 p.m.

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more overblown emotional hysteria. when have I tried to make them look like crap? you're seeing any statement that does not show blind adulation for firefighters as making them "look like crap"?

so the policy is for them to show up at accidents. not arguing with it. but it does show us just how "hard" MANY of these calls are, which are squeezed in between trips to the gym or supermarket....

and I don't have to "imagine" how dramatic their jobs are.... I only have to read your posts from 12:24 and 12:25.

any u wonder why any of us would assume you are married to a firefighter?

maybe you're just engaged to one. maybe your daddy or brother or cousin or best friend is one. or maybe you're just a groupie.

either way, you are clearly too emotionally attached to this issue to make any kind of cohesive argument for why we THE TAXPAYER should pay our firefighters 100, 150, even 200k per year when other major metropolitan fire departments, in much more dangerous cities, pay their firefighters half that amount.

and they still have no problem filling their jobs.

its called market supply and demand. and it's why someday if you do earn an RN, you may make 50, 60, or even over 100k if u choose to become a CRNA.
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 9:17 p.m.

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Well, whatever, it's not because I am r/t in any way or anything else. Maybe it's my time that I've been in school and seen the things that they've seen only usually not as bad. Usually by the time I've seen it, they've already begun to clean up and they've done a lot of the hard part. WHEN I am a nurse, if I work 56 hour work weeks, unlike the fire department I WILL make overtime and probably far exceed the 50 or 60 g's a year you speak of because anyone who works overtime should be compensated no matter the job. I never said you were arguing them showing up to accidents but you try and make it sound as posh as possible. They should definitely be punished for following protocol. We should surely cut their pay. No matter how much I try and get you to give a little and understand at all even a tid bit where I'm coming from you will always reach for something, anything. And to answer your question regarding when do you try and make them look like crap, I will answer that for you. Nearly everytime you post. If it's not bashing their education or putting quotes around the word hero insinuating that they are not it's something else. Just because every call doesn't necessarily call for a heroic intervention does not mean that they weren't there willing to put their necks on the line if the situation called for it. It's not about what you do, but what you're willing to do if the situation calls for it. And, I'm sorry, but you clearly do not have a job in the medical field because I can tell you right now, even if (not that this would ever happen) a firefighter only goes on one call where something traumatic has happened, where they have a loss of life or have to extricate a body from a vehicle or whatever, that lives with you for life! And I sure hope that jobs such as firefighters and police officers are not paid according to supply and demand, not when it's my family they are protecting.
By getalife

7/15/09 at 9:27 p.m.

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future RN,

I have posted about seeing firefighters in action and you doubted that, then I posted about knowing two recently retired firefighters and you doubt that.

So my guess is this; when your back is against a wall and you can't spout your pro-hero rhetoric you just dismiss the truth.

BTW, there are active firefighters in my family as well as retired firefighters and I am currently in the fire service. OOPS, too much reality in one session.

Remove the kool-aid IV drip and sober up before you expose yourself as a Union hack.
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 9:34 p.m.

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You're right too much reality. You topped me! I'm against the wall, out of options! You are in the fire service? So what is it that you do in the fire service?
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 9:39 p.m.

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futureRN
please note I never once attacked u personally or your chosen professional goal. with that said, i would like to go on record that I believe our POLICE are UNDERPAID. this is a very dangerous high crime city. very often in the news police officers are injured or killed in the line of duty.

and I have the same amount of respect for firefighters that MOST of us do. but I don't believe the romantic notion of them risking their lives selflessly every call of every day. this is the image their union exploits.

and I would have NO problem with them, if they were being paid the same amount that other firefighters in similar sized metro areas with similar costs of living are paid.

but they make GROSSLY more than that. u can argue all u want about overtime and callback. if it were so difficult to put in those hours, NOBODY would sign up for the job. they get plenty of rest, and often (NOT ALWAYS) are on the clock doing things many of us have to try to squeeze in outside of our 40 or 50 hour workweek.

the firefighters who get angry when a taxpayer questions why their salary is so grossly inflated over firefighters from other cities needs to be reminded WHO ultimately pays their salary.

and why would u hope that they are not paid by supply and demand?? this is how our doctors are paid. this is why our doctors make more than twice what doctors in Canada make. and this is why our medical schools attract the best and the brightest, and our country is the center of medical innovation.

u want to see what happens when government manipulates wages the other way? wait till obama nationalizes health care. see how many of our best and brightest will be willing to invest 8 years of college and medschool and 3-8 years of residency so they can be paid like canadian doctors.

market supply and demand. understand it before you discard it so lightly.
By getalife

7/15/09 at 9:42 p.m.

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FRN, I will keep you wondering but let's suffice it to say that I have been to more fires than most. I average twenty structure fires a month.
By lvlifer

7/15/09 at 9:57 p.m.

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Holy crap, getalife, 20 structural fires a month. Who the hell is in charge of your prevention department or your lack thereof? Thats absurd.

just an average.

A question for you.. What has been stated over and over again for almost 30 years in this counties fire department is Hire more firefighters, have roaming crews that can cover call offs and you have no OT. Because one thing your missing is Firefighters dont make 100k in base salary. Base starting salary is 51000. Thats seems fair to me. Currently CCFD is short approx 75 firefighters for ratings and coverage. If you talk the council into hiring 75 more wages, 75 more retirements, 75 more healthcares youll get rid of the overtime and Firefighter pay will be inline with all the other cities you dream of.
This is the reason people like myself get mad over this issue, you cry our firefighters make to much, but dont recognize thats its only the OT that causes this. They end up working over 80 hours a week to get those wages. Thats two full time jobs to make 100k. You think thats too much? OK. You think they dont work the whole they are there? OK, no employee works non stop, in fact nevada law reguires 30 min break for 8 hours and two 10 min breaks so over a 24 hour shift they should get almost 3 hours off time. So if they work out for an hour, so be it.

Just some thought for you to consider. And your thinking then get away from 24 hour shift. Ok then we would need to hire approx 120 more firefighters for shifts and coverage.

So until we can hire more firefighters there is no way around it they are going to make 100k but they are going to work 80+ hours a week to do it. Id bet youd make 100k if you worked that many hours..
By bandrlv

7/15/09 at 10:18 p.m.

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It is very clear that a few of the comments are from emergency responders. Not going to get invloved with the back and forth, I just hope that no one is on duty while posting the messages.....
By Fed_Up_Taxpayer

7/15/09 at 10:25 p.m.

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My, my, my. It appears that the firefighter's union realizes they have a public relations crisis on their hands with the grossly over greedy compensation and retirement plans they "won" for firefighters. Consequently, they have made an all hands on deck call for their members to post counter arguments on this site and the RJ's site in order to respond to all the negative publicity they are now experiencing.

Well, we taxpayers have had it with your greed and your we are heroes and deserve everything we can weasel from you taxpayers because we deserve it because we are heroes crap. And your not caring one bit that virtually everyone else in Clark County is getting laid off, taking pay cuts, and/or seeing their retirement funds dwindle down to nothing. It is all about firefighters and nothing else matters.

Yes, we are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore. I for one will not vote for any commissioner that receives an endorsement from the firefighters union. I also will not vote for any commissioner that continues to cave in to the firefighter's union and grant even more concessions in the future.

Firefighters are no longer heroes. You have squandered away that entitlement.
By just_an_average_joe

7/15/09 at 10:49 p.m.

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Fed Up...

well said.

lvlifer....

please. the 80 hour workweek thing is getting a bit tired. you would have us believe your heroes are working the equivalent of 12 hours every day of a 7 day workweek. if they are "putting in" 60 or 70 or 80 hours a week, it is ONLY possible because there is PLENTY of time for sleep and rest (not to mention working out and going to the grocery store and eating, things that us taxpayers do on our own time).

Otherwise, as I've stated before, they would not be "allowed" to work so many hours, as they would be a danger to themselves and others. please don't tell me they are sleep deprived for 4,5,6 or more days in a row, and allowed to drive heavy machinery and operate heavy equipment. this is why police officers are not "allowed" to put in the same kind of "overtime" that firefighters do.

furthermore, if the time on the clock was as grueling and mentally draining as you like to portray, there would be rampant turnover and low retention in our fire departments. and yet SOMEHOW the opposite is the case. gee. why is that? maybe, just maybe, our firefighters have it pretty darn good, and John Q. Public is starting to catch on and get tired of being squeezed tighter.
By future_RN

7/15/09 at 11:12 p.m.

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vote for who you want, let's see how much of a difference it really makes. The deals that have been made in contracts can never be taken back unless agreed upon by both sides. Just a little FYI for your uninformed rear, I don't know about the other departments, but the LVFR is only allowed to work three days in a row so that answers that question. And, if someone can't function on these kinds of shifts, maybe you should talk to the many doctors who do it and see what they have to say about it. And getalife, you are a true champ. 20 structure fires a month! You are a SUPERSTAR! What are you an inspector or something? You get there after the fires been put out? Unless you are a firefighter, you don't get to claim the fire service as a claim that you know what a firefighters job is like. Hey and dispatching 20 structure fires a month doesn't count either buddy! HAHA! And hey Joe, if you agree with that moron fed up, you really have lost all reality. You should go to the RJ and see the stuff this moron posts, it's fabulous!
By getalife

7/15/09 at 11:21 p.m.

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lvlifer,

I tried to make it clear earlier, but I will give it another go.

I am opposed to volunteer FF in metropolitan areas. Anybody who thinks volunteers can do the job in a large city is a couple of ladders short of a high-rise.

I think the Union is making a gigantic mistake with this idiotic stance.

Like I stated before, take the cut and let minimum staffing fill the pockets.

Perception is reality in most cases and the perception is that the current batch of firefighters are a bunch of overpaid whiny loafers.

Is this reality? No, but the longer they suffer from hero derangement syndrome the worse the public sentiment will become when it comes to sympathy or pay issues.

The writing is on the wall.
By Fed_Up_Taxpayer

7/15/09 at 11:30 p.m.

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future RN wrote: "vote for who you want, let's see how much of a difference it really makes. The deals that have been made in contracts can never be taken back unless agreed upon by both sides."

By future RN's own words she/he expresses the greedy, only we matter attitude perfectly of the firefighter's union and firefighters. Apparently, future RN and firefighters just do not get it, and it seems they never will.

That attitude is made even more apparent by attempting to ridicule, belittle, and attack anyone who disagrees with them. Her/his posts sound like a spoiled little kid sitting in their bedroom making posts on the Internet well after their bedtime. Go to bed future RN, your brain is beginning to melt.
By getalife

7/15/09 at 11:32 p.m.

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FRN,

Maybe you should nurse those hard feelings. You obviously have no clue what I do. Thanks for the condescending shout out to all the support services a primadonna like yourself belittles.

Unlike yourself I have never claimed to be a "true champ" or a "superstar", this just goes to show how small your intellect and or knowledge base is.

But then again you are probably the king of surround and drowned sitting next to a monitor while the ironmen are pulling ceilings after making interior attacks.

Oh well, at least you talk tough, that's something to be proud of.
By thrillseeker

7/15/09 at 11:39 p.m.

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Do you guys realize that the rate hike requests from NVPower will actually COST you MORE money out of your pockets? I certainly hope that you will e-mail the panel who will be deciding if the rate hikes will happen with the same ferocity that you are complaining about these fire fighters.
By just_an_average_joe

7/16/09 at 12:38 a.m.

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future RN,

I said only that I agreed with Fed Up on that post. I have never read any other posts by him. I'm sure there are a few, maybe even several issues on which I would strongly agree with u also, so don't take my nod as unconditional agreement.

the only doctors functioning on little or no sleep for long periods are those in their residency programs. otherwise nobody would last as a physician. yet u would have us believe the firefighters do it for 20 or 30 years.

so 3 days is the max shift. have u ever tried to stay up for 3 days straight? and then tried to perform a complex mental task or difficult physical feat? your body, and mind, don't function very well. and yet u would have us believe our firefighters routinely every week sleep little or none for 72 hours straight, and drive around in huge multi-ton engines. then have to be able to summon all the knowledge from all of their firefighting science training, use complex machinery and make quick decisions under pressure, without hurting themselves or others.

they would have to be able to do all of this, and STILL go to the gym and work out without looking at all tired or run-down! now that would be amazing.

I ain't buying it.
By future_RN

7/16/09 at 3:19 a.m.

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Joe, nobody said they work 72 hours straight every week, but that's just you twisting words again. But hey, the military stays awake for days on end sometimes, do they not? And, I'm sure that these guys are used to functioning on the small amounts of sleep they receive. As a mom, I can attest to the fact that your body becomes trained! The only doctors functioning on little or no sleep for long periods are those in the residency...and? Are they not doing it?

getalife, get a life and stop trying to pretend you are some cool guy that you're not. In a surround and drowned situation there would be nobody on the inside of the building anyways right? Or do you really know Mr. dispatch, sir fire investigator, or is Mr. fire inspector or maybe fire prevention! Perhaps you spend your day washing turnouts and that's why you're so bitter. Who really knows, and honestly who cares?

Joe, I do have to tell you that I am VERY proud of you for one reason. It seems you have begun to come to your senses with a few points. You finally admit that firefighting is a science, that these firefighters have to be educated to at the very least run the complex machinery and you also have realized that quick decisions under pressure are necessary, so after all the job is stressful! I'll have to find out if possible how it is that they show up to the gym not looking at all tired or run-down. Maybe they spend all of that "extra" time primping and learning make up tactics instead of sleeping. Something to think about?

Fed up - my only point was that you saying that you will never support someone who supports the firefighters isn't going to do a lick of good. That's all! :)
By BlurescueARFF

7/16/09 at 3:59 a.m.

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ALL,

I really do believe that WE have all lost site of the true facts of the case. First let me state that although I have been in emergency services over the last 34 years, I am not with any of the fire services located within the Clark County area. Within the Clark County area, you have Las Vegas Fire Rescue, North Las Vegas Fire Rescue, Henderson Fire Rescue, Nellis Fire Rescue, and Clark County Fire Rescue, and others that I have probably forgotten, all of which are represented by different locals within the "International Association of Fire Fighters" (IAFF). Each fire fighter pays into the local as every other "union" member does. It just so happens that the different fire fighter locals have negotiated fairly good if not very good contracts with their respective jurisdiction. These contracts must then go in front of a board, known as the city or county counsel. This elected counsel that represents YOU, voted and approved the contracts. Now the counsel is coming back and asking for the union to disregard this legally binding agreement. If this were you, wouldn't you fight for what you were originally given?

Every argument about pay turns around to the teachers, as this one has. Once again, they have a union and that union should have been more proactive in securing what they feel they deserve, of which they do deserve more.

Don't blame the fire fighters for wanting what they were promised. Remember, we are all professionals in what we do and deserve every bit of pay that we get, no matter what the other guy thinks or says.

One last note, my retirement is my retirement and is something that I paid into all my life. So whether it is figured over the last day, week, year, or five years, it is something that I have paid into and should get. AND don't tell me that I didn't pay for it, that the city/county did, I NEGOTIATED THAT BENEFIT.

NOW, stop bickering like children.
By terjen

7/16/09 at 6:47 a.m.

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It is all the same, everyone in this economy is taking a paycut, except the firefighters. They do not feel they are part of our society, they feel they are above everyone else. But then, did the Electric company CEO take a pay/bonus cut from his $4 million dollar salary before asking for a rate increase? Are natural Gas Executives taking a pay/bonus cut before asking for a rate increase? Did hotel exec's take a pay cut before laying off employee's? Currently the controlers of society feel that the masses of rate/tax payers OWE them a future when our future is not bright. All public unions, corporations like the power company need to prove they have cut overtime, cut pay, cut bonuses, cut expenses, basicly became better business people BEFORE they get another dime.
By just_an_average_joe

7/16/09 at 8:46 a.m.

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future RN

I'm simply doubting your assertion that they get "little to no sleep" ROUTINELY during their shifts. the functions of the mind and body are VERY negatively affected even after 1 or 2 days of little or no sleep. try googling "sleep deprivation studies" or "sleep deprivation effects".

and yes, sometimes the military has to operate with little or no sleep. this is often during training DESIGNED to induce maximum stress to mimic combat, or during ACTUAL combat operations. many of the best studies on sleep deprivation were conducted on soldiers. again and again it has been shown that even after 60 straight hours awake, cognitive and decision making abilities are SEVERELY impaired. many soldiers after being awake for 2 days are unable to properly operate complex weapon systems.

also keep in mind, that the vast majority of soldiers in these studies are in their early twenties, in excellent health. and yes, physicians in training often are forced to function with little sleep, but they are also usually in their mid-twenties, in the prime of their young adulthood.

you would have us believe that for a career of 30 years firefighters live a constant state of sleep deprivation, week in and week out, recovering only on their days off. doing this even into their thirties or forties or possibly fifties prior to retirement?

if this were the case, you don't think it would have a very negative affect on job retention in our local firefighter ranks? you don't think we would see FREQUENT motor vehicle accidents (and worse) involving fire dept personnel?

and yes, I will concede firefighting has a science behind it. just as small unit infantry tactics are military science. and planting crops is agriculture or farm science.

but it ain't rocket science.

we're still not buying your portrait of the life of our firefighters being one of constant misery, sleep deprivation, and self sacrifice.

they've got it pretty good. they themselves, through the hardball actions of their unions, are tarnishing their status within the community.
By future_RN

7/16/09 at 10:13 a.m.

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Tarnishing their status with a few of you whining fools. You are very good a twisting words Joe, and speaking to you does no good because I know that whatever I say you will come back and try and say I said something else. You are reaching!

Terjen - so let me get this straight, are you comparing the utility companies with the firefighters who have a contract with the county?
By jaesun

7/16/09 at 10:31 a.m.

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<<Now, how about we tell them that we are only going to offer you $40,000 a year for the same position that you originally wanted. I have a feeling the line may get significantly shorter! What do you think?>>

RN, have you seen unemployment? I am sure there are plenty of people who are qualified. Just because they didn't get hired in the past, doesn't mean they aren't qualified. Unless you think hiring EVERYONE who is qualified is a smart thing to do? i mean, then we can have a firestation every other block! Many times, people don't get hired because they only hire so many firefighters at a time.

On top of that, people now days, value a JOB over getting a RAISE. I bet you put the word out for firefighters at 40k, MANY MANY people would still apply. You really think that if they were actually given the choice of a 40k job or NO JOB, that all of them would walk out, especially in this economic climate? wrong
By jreedy

7/16/09 at 10:43 a.m.

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Whew! There is a lot going on in all these e-mails. Getting back to the point. Its about recognizing the economy sucks right now, and everyone needs to respect that, realize that less money is available to go around, and giving up some of your negotiated increases is the right thing to do. We're all in the same boat, and "rationing" resources and money is the smart thing to do. Metro did, and not just cops, the civilian employees union did the same thing and most of them make a LOT! less money than cops or firefighters!
By future_RN

7/16/09 at 10:51 a.m.

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You're right they would all be running for the jobs until they actually had to do it. Who wants to be a firefighter, $13 a hour...sounds great! Hey you could say the same thing about any position. Let's just start paying the president $40,000 a year too! Everyone will line up for that job!
By just_an_average_joe

7/16/09 at 11:01 a.m.

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future RN,

resorting to personal attacks again - I believe this time u called us "whining fools".

what u call "twisting words" is what we grownups call "debating".

and we wouldn't have to lower the pay to $40,000 per year. just offer people the same pay EVERY OTHER MAJOR METROPOLITAN area offers their firefighters, adjusted for our cost of living. including benefits and taxpayer funded retirement. you will still have a long line of qualified applicants.

and BTW, don't kid yourself, everyone would line up for the job of the president of the US if it paid NOTHING. they do it for the power, not the money. and it only takes a few months on the speaking circuit and writing memoirs after office to become a millionaire (except for the fact that many of our presidents in modern history were already millionaires BEFORE election, Barack Obama among them.)
By future_RN

7/16/09 at 11:20 a.m.

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Hey lets offer them $51,000 a year to start. Does that sound okay? Oh, wait that is what we pay our firefighters. Hmmmm
By Fed_Up_Taxpayer

7/16/09 at 11:55 a.m.

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Give it up future RN. You have thoroughly discredited yourself with your incomprehensible rants, and ridiculing, belittling, and attacking anyone that disagrees with you. I am really surprised to learn that you are a mom. You come across more as some spoiled kid getting her kicks by posting crap to impress her equally challenged friends. How can you even expect anyone to take you seriously?
By just_an_average_joe

7/16/09 at 12:32 p.m.

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great idea! lets "publish" that we're going to pay them "$51,000" then set everything up so that their median salaries are OVER $120,000 per year, with FULL benefits! and set it up so they can retire in their forties with a 6 figure taxpayer paid pension for life! hmmmmmmmmmm.
By jaesun

7/16/09 at 12:40 p.m.

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so RN does things for the money, rather than the reward of the job itself. no wonder RN is such a defender of overpaid employees. I bet RN would defend all the CEO's paychecks at GM, Chrysler, Citigroup, etc.

And you still missed the point. Fire the firefighters and get new firefighters at the same payrate they are paying now (minus the cost of living increase) and the only ones that would complain would be the firefighters being fired.

But keep up the defense of the firefighter loafers with your endless rants. Every other employee such as police (who again, also put their lives on the line) gave up their pay raises, but of course, not RN or the firefighters.
By Stop_and_think

7/16/09 at 2:27 p.m.

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The Las Vegas Police Protective Association who represent all the cops, corrections officers, and metro's civilian employees didnt give up anything. Its all smoke and mirrors. They are skipping there 3% raise this year, but for the next two years they are going to get a 4.5%raise to make up for it.
By just_an_average_joe

7/16/09 at 2:54 p.m.

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but cops here are NOT grossly overpaid relative to police in other large metropolitan areas. this is a high crime dangerous city to police.

firefighters, on the other hand, with their "special pays" and "overtime", earn a MEDIAN salary of over $120,000 per year in this town.

and coincidentally, this is NOT a dangerous place to be a firefighter, relative to cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco. and it's cheaper to live here than many major metropolitan areas.
By lakeflier

7/16/09 at 3:55 p.m.

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Do you think that the firefighters of the union want to do something to help out? Do you think that they want to defer a cost of living increase in this economy? Is the union still participating in closed door meetings with the County?

What have the other 3 fire departments done(North Las Vegas, Las Vegas fire dept, Henderson)? What have the other 2 police departments done(nlv,Henderson)?

Did the County Commissioners give anything up? Did everyone who works out of the County building give something up? City of Las Vegas? North Las Vegas? Henderson?

I think the FF Union and the County will agree on something, but when.
By qtipp

7/16/09 at 5:33 p.m.

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This really disgusts me. I cant handle all of you firefighter bashers! You sit around at your house and talk bad about firefighters but as soon as you need them for something, anything you run to the phone and expect these guys to come running. These guys are ISO class 1. This is the highest rating that a fire department can recieve. I mean this rating has only been given to a few (single #) of other departments! I think they deserve the money they recieve.
County Commissioners havent given any of there money back so lets have a look at that.
By jreedy

7/16/09 at 8:17 p.m.

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for stop and think

the PPA doesn't represent the civilian employees, the PPACE does- completely separate union, separate contract, separate negotiations, separate members. Get your facts together before you make a statement that is incorrect.
By Stop_and_think

7/16/09 at 8:46 p.m.

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Well the facts are that the Las Vegas Police Protective Association who has 3500 members got a contract extension that now cost the county $900,000 more per year starting July 1st. The PPACE who represents 1600 metro civilian employees got a 3 year contract extension that now cost the county $1,350,000 more per year starting July 1st. Neither of those unions gave up anything. They gained in this econonmy. Those are the facts.
By billm

7/16/09 at 11:42 p.m.

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how many made more then $100,000 last year,yea poor firefighters. If they have a problem w/their jobs and the wages paid then shut up and go get a real job.Just make the decision and close a few stations and fire some of them,unemployment might change their minds.these public,yes taxpayer paid public employees run around calling themselves heros and demand overtime,yes demand overtime based on seniority have really given us all a clearer picture of how nice their compensation package really is and its too much,let them pay for their health insurance.and cut back on paid days off and cell phone misuse.they are not heros they are just lucky people who knew the right people to get the job and its lush benefits.the only hero i ever knew jumped on a grenade and saved the rest of us,he was a hero not these self proclaimed heros.real heros don't call themselves heros,most are no longer w/us.save millions,cut the jobs now,they have no say or position,end this power they think they have now.
By future_RN

7/17/09 at 12:19 a.m.

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This is all rather tiring to me because I am generally a very simple person but the few things that I feel strongly about, I have a hard time keeping quite about.

I just want to clear up a few things that you have said bill. The firefighters I don't believe have ever said that they have a "problem with their jobs". I also don't think they said they have a problem with their wages. They were in a contract with the county and they are just asking for what was rightfully promised to them. Also, I've never heard in any story or on this thread a firefighter call him/herself a hero. The ones using the word hero are those of us who are not firefighters. The most important point to me though is the ignorance of those who post on here. You all are reaching so far that most often times you have not even thought about what you are saying. Bill, you say shut down a few fire stations huh? You answer these questions then...which of the lucky tax payers you spoke of that pay for firefighters are going to have their services taken away from them? If you try and take away the station who is responsible for my house, you better bet your behind there's gonna be trouble. I as a tax payer would not have that and I feel that others would agree with me.

A few more points: OT is NOT done by senority, health insurance at least in my opinion (yes I said my opinion) should be provided for employees of any profession. Cell phone misuse? I'm confused. I'm sad for you that you feel that the only person worthy enough of the title hero is one person who jumped on a grenade. That was a wonderful heroic thing that was done, but I can think of plenty of other heroes and not just firefighters. Cutting jobs sounds like a fabulous idea Bill but we are already short handed in that department, that is why there is overtime which is FORCED and MANDATORY by the county, not demanded by the firefighters.
By GunslingerA10

7/17/09 at 2:08 a.m.

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Salary ($5,500. monthly) or hourly wages ($14.50), I would prefer salaried wages (varied on account of position) for all public servants. That would eliminate any excessive OT wages paid. I will bet ten dollars to a doughnut, the FF union Rep. or any public workers union Rep. will not entertain that as a negotiated settlement to this issue.

Under a salaried wage, there could even be a step increase for accumulated years as well, there's no need set ridged working hours, so, the unions would have to be more creative in how they would charge their clients for services rendered. Maybe, they too could just get a flat rate; this would remove any corrupt justifications for ratcheting up wages, or lobbing for more payola.

FRN

I don't know, what do you think, would that be something to consider if you where in the position to "call-it".
By getalife

7/17/09 at 7:58 a.m.

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FRN,

Overtime is offered by seniority. Callbacks are voluntary except for a few positions, then it is mandatory.

Minimum mandatory staffing allows firefighters to live in overtime heaven.

BTW, don't tell me that firefighters are away from their families for three days. They want the callback; that is how they pay for their lifestyles.

This is why the union should give in on this small issue. They can more than make up for it in callbacks.

For this bunch I guess bad PR is better than no PR.
By future_RN

7/17/09 at 10:25 a.m.

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Why should they have to work OT for free? I don't understand that thinking. The minimum staffing is not regulated by the firefighters, it's the county that has decided to not hire more people. If they would hire more than OT wouldn't be possible as often. And getalife, I don't know about county for sure, but I know that for sure LVFR's OT is NOT based on seniority. And you are right, it is the firefighters decision when the OT is not mandatory that they be away from their families for 72 hours, and noone is disputing that. For that reason though if nothing more, that OT should be paid to them. You aren't gonna get me away from my family for 72 hours for free, no way!
By getalife

7/17/09 at 1:52 p.m.

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FRN,

I don't think OT should be free for anybody; whether you are a short order cook or a firefighter.

You have to look at the whole entitlement picture to under the extravagant lifestyles the FF are currently living. Thanks to OT.

That is why (and I will type this slower for better comprehension) They should make the COLA adjustment. They will easily make up for it in OT.

Thanks for the fanatical misreading.
By future_RN

7/17/09 at 2:06 p.m.

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Even if they make a COLA adjustment you will still whine and moan about their OT as if it is their fault that they have the opportunity to take it. If one guy doesn't take it someone else will and if nobody wants it then someone will be forced to right? I get that they make decent money off OT but saying they should lose a raise and then work more so they can make up for it is also kind of ignorant.
By getalife

7/17/09 at 5:45 p.m.

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FRN, I guess in your world reality = ignorant.

If ignorance was truly bliss, you would be the happiest person on the planet.
By future_RN

7/18/09 at 2:43 a.m.

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Okay everyone, no raises this year but hey you can work OT instead to make up for it. LMAO! Right! If my employer told me that, I might have a few choice words for him. What a way to save money huh? And you think that when this recession is over and the county is back in tip top shape, they would make up for any previous losses. Nope, not if your a ff. If you're a cop, gladly, but not a firefighter!
By GunslingerA10

7/18/09 at 7:25 a.m.

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FRN

A few questions;

1. Are there beds in the fire house?

2. If there are, how much do they get paid an hour to sleep?

3. During mormal work hours, do they just sit around the house watching TV at any time awaiting the call?

4. Are they paid (on the clock) to sit in on lectures or training session?

5. Do they have a structured hourly work shift day/night, or is it left up to the FF to do as he/she likes for the most part?

Now, I now for the most part they have some duties like cleaning the hoses and inspecting equit. for the next run, ok what else?

don't try and play me, I am just trying to chat on topic with you, no need to try and pin you on the ground. As we both know you would beat-me anyway.

The point I am making, is, if they are on the clock don't you think we (tax payers)as their employer should not waist money and just burn-it-up without a proper value in return.

I don't want to come off as negative here.
By future_RN

7/18/09 at 10:25 a.m.

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Real quick, you speak of tax payers not waisting their money. Trust me, if the County found a cheaper way then having the firefighters work 24 hr shifts, it would have been done a long time ago. That is what you are failing to realize. It allows the county to get an extra 16 hours out of them without paying OT, per person, per day. Now add that up for the year and see how many free hours we are getting without paying OT. Also, being there at night the firefighters will sleep at the station. However, some nights they may get 5 hrs, 6, hrs, or 1hr of sleep. No one knows when a call will come in, how serious it will be, and how long firefighters will be there helping someone. That is why they are emergency personnel, because they need to be there ready to go when an unexpected emergency happens. I can imagine it would be hard to sleep hearing other units come and go all night, or the anticipation of getting a call. Then what if something does happen and they have to be up most of the night working calls. Do they go home and sleep on their day off? Do they get paid for that? Wonder how their family and kids feel when daddy or mommy comes home and sleeps after being away for 24 hrs or more. Not every shifts beat you into the ground, but if they need to be there, they are, and at the countys cheapest way to employ them. And in return, saves the tax payers more money. So careful what you wish for, as everyone who is yelling foul (mostly chamber of commerce groupies), will see how much it really costs the tax payers if they got what they wanted.
By future_RN

7/18/09 at 10:43 a.m.

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As to answer the rest of your questions:

#5 - Visit a local fire station (which any person can do) and you can find out what I found out by doing so. Every morning they take a good chunk of time to go through every rescue, engine and truck to check EVERY peice of equipment, make sure everthing is stocked and in working order and ready to go. Then they clean the entire station from top to bottom. There is usually a training every day (which answers question #4). Yes, they are paid for their training just like any other worker at any other job. Each unit is assigned fire hydrant testing each day. Pre-planning business and residences in case of a fire. Then of course there is the time spent for cooking, I know so unfair that they get to eat. After every call, at some point an in depth report must be written in part for all you sue happy people out there, so they can take that report with them when they get subpoened. Then everyday of the week there is a major task assigned. For example on Friday it might be buffing the floors and Thursday might be washing all the rigs. Then of course there's the daily station tours that you are all welcomed to take and the occasional public events. Then, when a station has a rookie, there's a lot more intense training that that station takes part in every day. There's time that is needed to be found in between that to get in your required one hour work out. Oh, and then in between all of that let's not forget there are all the calls to be ran. Who knows what else there is that we don't even see down there. Sounds pretty far from sitting around watching TV and sleeping all day. When you get your info from the newspaper or from the few angry ones out there gunslinger, you get misinformed. Take the time for yourself to go see. I've been to several stations, most recently to station 1 for a field trip with my son and I can say that I feel like I get my moneys worth!
By Stop_and_think

7/18/09 at 11:17 a.m.

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If you are curious about what firefighters are doing go to this website: http://fire.co.clark.nv.us/AlarmOffice/A...

It shows all the active calls and the address and the type call. You will see that 95% of the calls are medical related and they occur at all hours of the day and night.
By just_an_average_joe

7/18/09 at 12:44 p.m.

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future RN,

still trying to have us believe you have no connection with a firefighter, eh?

you just "happened" to visit the firestation......

here is the hole in your logic.

you continue to stay on the tired argument that everything these heroes do is self-sacrificial, and only for the greater good.

your argument about firefighters "sucking it up" and taking overtime solely to benefit the taxpayer holds no water. if this were true, why do NO OTHER major metropolitan fire departments follow the same policy?

and once you factor in the fact that overtime is no doubt paid at a much higher rate than their "standard" contracted hourly rate (is it 1.5 or 2x the standard???), and then add in the exhorbitant taxpayer burden at RETIREMENT of these heroes. we then get to pay them from age 45 or 55 FOREVER an INFLATED sum, because the amount is based on what they were paid their last 3 years of service.

the reason we do not hire more firefighters, and adjust their salaries to be more commensurate with what every other firefighter in this country makes, is because they have such a powerful union, and our local politicians are in their pockets.
By jsayler

7/18/09 at 1:28 p.m.

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This is really sad. It seems that the logical solution would be to fire the entire department and hire a new force that is willing to work for a reasonable wage with benefits.

Certainly, there are many, many individuals out there who would be willing to take these jobs for a fraction of the cost.

Who is responsible for letting this happen? This is the next step--determining the reasoning behind the responsible party's decision must be disected and analyzed. Should these decision-makers be held responsible? Is there any culpability? Where are the attorneys that represent the public?

We know who's loosing in this deal but who's the big beneficiaries (besides the firefighters)?

jsayler@twitter.com
By future_RN

7/18/09 at 1:43 p.m.

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First off, Jay I hate to say it but your statements make it clear to me that you don't know a whole lot about what's going on! Just another poor soul influenced solely by our biased news organizations.

Joe, everytime you speak you get further and further from the truth. Your quotes imply that I have at one point (or someone else) said those exact words...NEVER! Also, I have NEVER EVER said that it solely benefits the taxpayers. Obviously both the taxpayers and the firefighters benefit, but there is no downside to the taxpayers. Like I've said numerous times before, if the county could somehow do it for cheaper they would. But, because of the simple fact that the firefighters are benefiting from the OT, you are ticked off. Bad firefighters! Also, I would like you to site your source as far as no other departments having the same policy. No other departments pay any OT?? Hhhmmmm, I don't believe that. Also, I have told you numerous times, and proven by siting my source that as of 2007 the OT does not count towards retirement. And another thing, the ff's unions have been asking to hire more firefighters, but because it would serve as a greater cost, the county and city have refused to do so. Since you've already expressed that the ff's are not heroes, you are simply mocking me by using that word in your writing.
By future_RN

7/18/09 at 2:11 p.m.

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There are other depts that use the cheaper overtime system as well. Obviously you don't know much about that, stating that no other dept pay OT. Sadly misinformed or pulling something out of no where, which is it? Also, a huge reason other than it is the cheapest to the county, that OT exist, is that Las Vegas has grown rapidly over the years. The fire depts could not keep up with staffing the stations with the hiring of new firefighters. So, beyond firefighters control, county likes to pay out OT versus the cost of employing new people. The unions are always pushing to hire new people, as firefighters are expected to do more with less.

Most of the general population doesn't buy into these one-sided articles. A very few people try to make a huge issue out of misinformed information. Luckily, it doesn't affect the fire dept. People will always realize what they do, and for how little an hour they do it for. Trying to post salaries of someone who works an extreme amount of hours to get the public outrage, is easily put to rest when the truth comes out. And no one can take someone seriously when the solution they feel is best is to fire everyone, and hire people for less. Which by the way could not happen no matter how much you guys want it. Get over it, the public services will be ran to the best of its abilities. That is why nothing has changed and no one takes these rants seriously. The chamber of commerce and the local newspaper can keep posting articles every other day. It just goes to show an agenda verses giving people the truth and the whole story.
By just_an_average_joe

7/18/09 at 5:24 p.m.

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future RN

my, you know SO MUCH about firefighters here in Clark County!! even though (you claim) you are not married to or related to or close friends with anybody who is a firefighter!!

that is amazing!!

even more so amazing by the fact that you are (supposedly) studying full time to earn an RN degree!!
By getalife

7/18/09 at 5:47 p.m.

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FRN,

I toured the USS Midway the other day and sat in a simulator; according to the line of logic you use I know what it is like being a fighter pilot.

Heaven help us when you become a Nurse you will be telling Doctors what to do.

BTW, did you stay at a Holiday Inn recently?
By lakeflier

7/18/09 at 6:43 p.m.

Suggest removal

FRN,

go get em FRN. nurses tell doctors what to do anyway!