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twitterLetter to the editor:
Lack of pride is what’s sinking U.S. industry
Tuesday, July 7, 2009 | 2:06 a.m.
In the past, when inventors designed a new product, artists created a new design or entrepreneurs forged a new industry, things were quite different. They would employ their families, friends and United States citizens to put it all together. They used the best materials available and created high-quality products. The beauty and quality were long lasting and held in high esteem throughout the world. This was what “Made in the USA” meant.
We prided ourselves on creating the best the world had to offer. These are the wonderful creations you now see on “Antiques Roadshow” and selling in pricey antique stores.
Designers, artists and entrepreneurs now do things in a much different way. They outsource manufacturing to the country that offers the cheapest labor, create with the cheapest possible materials, and produce products that usually are in our landfills within a year. You will not see any of these items in antique stores or road shows of the future. This is a disgrace to all the citizens of this country. Our capacity to be and do our best has been taken away by greed.
Hands that could be building and creating new things are now just filling out job applications. Minds that could be putting forth richer and more profound designs are idle, playing video games or just dreaming. We have unlimited capacity to contribute to the world in a meaningful way. Selfishness and greed have taken the place of pride. Manufacturers don’t care about quality as long as they can reap huge profits for themselves.
If we want to pull our country out of the mess it is in, attitudes will have to change. Greed needs to be replaced with pride. Pride in knowing that you are helping fellow citizens by hiring them when help is needed to forge a new creation. Pride in using the best quality products this country has and pride in rendering to the world the very best that we can.
Discussion: 66 comments so far…
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Hey Ricky >>>>> Made in the U.S.A. died when greedy corporate America put profits ahead of patriotism. We used to have a us against the world mentality you know like the Olympic games used to be to all of us. Now we are winding up like every other dumb down socialist loser of a nation because most people in this country are nothing but a bunch of excuse making p#ssys who seem to always need a daddy in life. It's like all those people that voted for President Obama they don't even know why they did, They just thought that they were going to get something for nothing and daddy was going to fix there problems in life. These people need to wake up and grow up in life and start to stand on there own two feet like an adult and stop waiting on daddy to feed them wipe there nose and tuck them in everynight.
Very well put Powerplay.
POWERPLAY: Sounds like your finally picking up on how greed is ruining America?
If only pride and patriotism made the world go round. Wow the NAZIs sure might still be in power, they sure had all sorts of pride and patriotism with all that marching, chanting and flag waving didn't they?
But that is not how the world works guys.
You need free markets, free enterprise, and private ownership. A government that minimizes taxation and regulation. This allows individuals to pursue their own interests which results in them serving the needs of others.
Greed is good if greed occurs in a system where transactions between individuals are voluntary. Greed makes us serve others and competition makes sure our greed forces us to provide the best service at the best price.
Its not perfect but its a whole lot better than imaginary or meaningless phrases like pride and patriotism which have NOTHING to do with the quality of service, goods, or strength of our economy.
Patrick, I would substitute the phrase "fair markets" for "free markets" when it comes to foreign trade. It is my belief that so long as we are a net-importer we will never be able to fix our economy.
It is only natural that our industries have moved so much of the cost of labor offshore. This is where the government needs to step in and establish a fair playing field to protect the citizens of this country. It should be quite possible to reduce domestic taxes to near zero if proper import tarrifs were established.
And Americans went along with the greed, and still do. Look at Wal-Mart. "The personal is political," as the saying goes. But to act, you have to have a clue what's going on, which many Americans do not, nor do they care to. When the brightest have fewer kids and the dimmest have more, that's what happens to a society.
Boft,
Being a net importer or exporter makes no difference. If we are importing lots of stuff it means we citizens are getting lots of great stuff to buy. Our money is good and we can spend it on all sorts of things to improve our lives.
Foreigners just get green pieces of paper and we get electronics, cars, sofas, cool clothes, whatever we want.
But this isn't something that occurs forever. It has lasted for a long time in America because we are such a great and safe investment (We buy foreign goods, they turn around and invest those dollars back in America we turn around and buy more foreign goods they turn around and invest in America -- but our government is quickly making America a worse and worse investment) So soon people won't want green American dollars so much, they already have enough and they start trading their dollars for things they want.
Our dollars drop in value, we buy less imports because we can't afford more imports while foreigners buy more of what they want. That may include American exports. They have more to enjoy while we have less.
That is simply the free market at work. It is self correcting.
But always remember, money is just a green piece of paper.
Lets not forget, that the USA has unfunded liabilities of approx $58 trillion, and increasing by $1 million every 22 seconds, almost $187000 per citizen
If we have little or no manufacturing, then what will other countries buy from us? What they are buying is land and ownership positions in our companies. Which in turn leads to further export of our dollars. This cycle can not continue.
Many of our trading partners do not allow us to have equal access to their consumer base, Japan is a good example (granted, this is changing very slowly). Furthermore, I would submit that fair or even free trade is impossible with countries like China which has an entirely different economic philosophy than we do.
Manufacturing as a percent of GDP has been falling in every country, including China. That's because of increasing productivity resulting from technological advances. Same thing happened to farming, but we produce more food than ever. No one's crying about the loss of farming jobs.
The U.S. is the third largest exporter in the world, behind Germany and China, and 83% of our exports are manufactured goods. If we impose higher import tariffs, our trading partners will do the same to our exports to them. That will hurt our businesses and increase the prices we pay for almost everything. They tried it in the 1930's with Smoot-Hawley, and see where that got us.
When another country, like Japan, imposes import tariffs, they are hurting their own economy more than ours. If they want more dollars, we should be glad to oblige them. They can use them to buy our goods or they can save them in our country, extending us credit or driving up our asset prices.
Boft,
Even if we had 0 manufacturing jobs - so what? Even if we produced not a darn industrial product - so what? None of that is very likely but given our current semi free economy I'm pretty reasonably well assured that Americans will have good jobs providing services to one another and be buying goods manufactured by robots or foreign workers.
Basically we'll have lots of cushy desk jobs in AC offices - really not that bad.
What if foreigners bought only land and buildings - so what? They can't take the land or buildings anywhere. The worst that can happen is they own them and then we take their money and buy things that make our lives better.
Nevertheless, one of the worst things we can do is to try and protect manufacturing jobs with tariffs or regulations. That only results in retaliatory tariffs and higher costs of living for Americans.
Also if you look at US trade data you'll notice that in years when the trade deficit grows our economic strength is high, unemployment is low, and even industrial exports are up. The US trade deficit has been a signal of US economic strength for more than 30 years -- and it is that way because we are being funded by foreign investment -- we are a great place to invest. Well, at least we used to be before the government decided it had to grow larger and larger and bailout failed businesses.
There are two important things to remember
1) Every good exported out of your country is a good your people cannot enjoy
and
2) Dollars are just green pieces of paper.
The best system to have is where you ship of pieces of paper and get tons of goods to make your life better.
Also remember that just because we import a lot of stuff does not mean that we do not buy lots of domestic goods. For the last 30 years America's economy has been so strong we've been buying a lot of everything.
Mr. Gibbons knows as much about economics as Gov. Gibbons knows about managing a state and G W Bush knows about running a country.
He did learn one thing in that single semester on-line course in Economics, and that US paper money is green. However most of today's money is colorless, odorless, invisible and free of germs (though sometimes infected with a virus).
The value of our money, green or electronic, is what's at stake. We can only buy all that good stuff made elsewhere if that 'elsewhere' agrees that out our currency actually is worth something and can be exchanged for other stuff somewhere else. The value America has placed on our Dollar is being seen by more and more 'elsewheres' as a fraud. The very foundation of the house of cards is rapidly eroding. Only a weak scaffolding of faith holds it up.
Selling services to ourselves in isolation is not a plan. If it were, Yemen and Somalia wouldn't need a piracy industry.
This line makes me curious:
"Manufacturers don't care about quality as long as they can reap huge profits for themselves."
How exactly does a business reap huge profits if they have a reputation for poor quality?
The only way that could happen is if they enjoyed some type of government-protected monopoly status that prevented competitive pressures from forcing the sub-standard producer out of the market.
1) Stan prove I don't know much about economics
2) Yup, I took just one course. (2 if you count a graduate course in political econ) Then 4 years later I roomed with an economist in graduate school and red tons of material starting with Milton Friedman's Free to Choose which I recomend you start with.
3) Here is a word for you: autodidact.
4) "The value America has placed on our Dollar is being seen by more and more 'elsewheres' as a fraud." Wow, exactly what I said, but this is occuring because our government is printing to much and destroying the friendlyness of our business enviornment.
5) What is your plan?
yes.
it's greed on the part of unions that kept their pay high even as their employers started to tank, rendering them uncompetitive.
i laugh at all the over-paid, arrogant union workers that made $30 - $40 per hour for a job that a 8th grader could do for $10 per hour that are now out of work.
Patrick, please remember that I said "fair", and while not specifically stating it, I meant to imply that our trade policies should vary based on the partner.
Beyond that, I would submit that wealth stems basically from the the production of food. More than anything else (with the exception of fresh water), whoever controls the supply of food controls everything else.
Manufacturing and services depends upon consumers. If those consumers eventually run out of money (or food for barter) then providers will either stop selling to them or in turn go bankrupt.
As for the outside ownership of our land, maybe the land can't be taken away, but those foreign owners can and do charge rent, which further removes our ability to purchase goods and services from anyone.
What I want to see are tarrifs which are designed to raise the cost of labor of imported goods to a level comparable to what it would be in this country. The funds raised in such a fashion should be more than enough to greatly reduce most if not all taxes in this country which in turn would lower the overall cost of goods and services produced here, helping them remain competitive.
Is this view simplistic? Probably, but I think a reasonable model could be developed to further investigate the concept.
boftx:
There's no free lunch. Trade restrictions (tariffs, etc.) reduce trade and therefore wealth, for everyone. Patrick offered a good book to read: "Free To Choose" by Milton and Rose Friedman.
Wealth is created by people producing things that people want, not just food: iPhones/Pods, software, clothes, oil, everything.
Bot,
Free trade is always fair. Free trade only occurs with voluntary transactions. Anything that is considered a voluntary transaction is going to be fair - people don't volunteer to cheat themselves.
Most people don't like free trade because it doesn't produce the outcomes they want. Some want manufactoring jobs in America - even if replacement jobs might be better, safer, and increase our incomes. Some people hate free trade because they would lose their personal job and they want to force the rest of us to subsidize their good job.
Lazy is right, "Wealth is created by people producing things that people want, not just food: iPhones/Pods, software, clothes, oil, everything."
If the only thing that started wealth was the abundance of food then nobody would have industrialized and we'd still be poor farm nations today. Furthermore, Hong Kong, which is nothing more than an island rock and cannot even sustain its own food supply wouldn't be one of the wealthiest places on the planet today.
Personally, the best thing America could do would be to unilaterally adopt free trade regardless of what other nations did -- including the abolition of protectionist import restrictions and domestic subsidies. Wealth would flow into our country like never before, as prices dropped, quality improved, and standards of living increased.
"The spirit of the tariff is malevolent. It flies in the face of all American ideals. I hate it root and branch. It helps a few rich men to get rich, it helps the great mass of poor men to get poorer. I am for free trade because I am for anything that will break down the barriers between peoples. I want to see the countries all wide open."
- Walt Witman, American poet
I am not convinced that the concept of "free trade" is viable when talking about trade with China. I certainly do not think that our trade with China is fair. Your description of free and fair trade implies that there are no restictions in both directions, and that simply is not the case with a number of our trade partners.
As to the question of the base of wealth, I would wager that countries that are capable of feeding themselves without imports are going to be better off than those that can't if economic conditions get worse, assuming they are capable of defending themselves. Sorry for the doom-and-gloom, but I agree with you that our country's leadership leaves a bit to be desired.
I'm glad to see that several posters believe that part of our current problem is greed. Of course, Patrick Gibbons believes that greed is always good...Hmmmmm....where have I heard that before?
I don't understand how American workers are going to be able to find good paying jobs and earn a live-able wage if we continue to lose our manufacturing base.
We continue to import hundred's of billions of dollars in foreign made goods but export very little in return. I don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to see that that situation translates into American dollars going out of the country as opposed to dollars coming in....
The old theory of maintaining a "favorable balance of trade" still seems logical to me.
I see nothing wrong with a growing global economy if we here in the United States are able to compete equally on a world-wide basis... I don't see that happening.
I have as yet to hear any politician explain to me how the loss of American jobs is good for this country... Maybe Mr. Gibbons can explain that to all of us....
I guess Mr. Gibbons believes that the situation I just described is good for this country....I happen to believe that what I described is good for American corporations but hardly a plus for the average American worker....
The huge profits make by American corporations operating off shore is hardly the way we should measure the economic health of this country.
How much longer can we continue to import over 70% of the oil that we use and expect our economy to grow and remain strong?
How much longer can we continue to run huge trade deficits and remain a healthy and growing economy?
How much longer can we continue to borrow billions of dollars weekly just to pay our monthly bills?
How much longer can we continue to fight two wars in the Middle East by spending money that we don't have?
A lot of questions but few real answers.....
Powerplay. Obviously you have never gone without. If you lose your job, will you be on your own to find a new one or do you have family to get one for you? If you had absolutely no income, no money on hand and no food, who would feed you? This country is great because it has compassion and cares for those in need. What you want this country to be it not what the USA is all about. Your description sounds more like ancient Europe during the dark ages. The poor starved to death, the sick were left on the streets to die and the rich ruled from their castles on the hill, where you obviously see yourself.
Geoffrey. We have to buy what is available and you would be hard pressed to find anything we use with a "Made in USA" label. We are left with no choice but to buy garbage because we don't produce anything here anymore. Many of these items are necessities. We are left to buy the same item every year just to maintain. The whole idea is to produce long lasting quality products. We don't. I have no idea what we produce because I don't find any of it in our stores. Are we shipping it all overseas or are all of our products made of paper? The only thing, that I am aware of, that we ship overseas is food and high end technology. The technology is, for the most part, on paper.
Patrick. I have to disagree with you. I create things and I do it well. I use the best possible products and create items that will be here for centuries. We don't have descent outlets for the made in USA items. Retailer and outlets would rather push the garbage that they know the customer will be in to buy again next year. I guess, in some ways, our society has become used to it. It's sad to know that people are willing to settle for garbage when they could be buying products that will last them a lifetime.
Ok pwrbinc >>>>> It looks like that you missed my whole point which is that the government should not come first in your personal life on how you conduct yourself and handle your own affairs. Yes some people will fall thur the cracks in life and government will be forced to step in! What i was saying was that you need to be as self-sufficient in life as much as possible. That in itself will cause the poverty rate in this country to fall in my opinion to under 5% people need to look forward towards the future in good times and say to themselfs do i have a backup plan in case something go's wrong you know like health insurance or auto insurance or life insurance instead of waiting for that day to come on it's own. THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD PROMOTE SELF-SUFFICIENCY WITH ONES-SELF NOT A RELIANCE ON GOVERNMENT AS A PERSONAL LIFE CHOICE.>>>>> P.S. NO I AM NOT RICH I AM HOWEVER PART OF THE WORKING CLASS WHO TRIES TO THINK BEFORE ACTING ON ANYTHING.
Bot,
China can only do things that temporarily harm America if we engaged in free trade - but I qualify this is harming us compared to bilateral free trade. Nevertheless what harm they could do is no worse than us raising tariffs on their own imports. That is, unilateral free trade is still better than restricting trade just because someone else did it to us.
First, China could raise tariffs on our imports. It would hurt our exports to China but they would hurt their people far more than us.
Second they could place import restrictions, but as we Americans have seen with Japanese and German imports that only means more profits for our companies. Demand for Toyotas are sky high but the US government limits the imports allowing Toyota to make a premium profit on each car. They dump their profits into new products that aren't subject to import restrictions. First they came at us with economy cars, then luxury, then pickups, then hybrids. Nothing our government does stops them, but they do get some nice profits.
Third, and my favorite, they could subsidize their own industries. Sure that puts American exports at a slight disadvantage at first and boosts their own imports to the US. But A) the chinese people are subsidizing US AMERICANS to buy their products - WHAT A PRESENT! and B) subsidized industries stagnate quickly and in the end are so poorly managed they cannot innovate and keep up with the competition.
El Lobo you said "Of course, Patrick Gibbons believes that greed is always good...Hmmmmm....where have I heard that before? "
How many times to I have to explain this.
Greed is ONLY GOOD when transactions are voluntary and competitive markets exist. I've qualified this two dozen times. Stop making straw men.
El lobo,
prepared to be pwned...
"We continue to import hundred's of billions of dollars in foreign made goods but export very little in return. I don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to see that that situation translates into American dollars going out of the country as opposed to dollars coming in...."
You just described the single best senario we Americans could face.
We give up green pieces of paper and we get stereos, cars, video games, dvd players, LCD televisions, leather jackets, food, whatever.
They keep our green pieces of paper and they never return.
Wow, we now have the cheapest export industry in the world. We give up useless pieces of green paper (they are only good for buying stuff mind you) and we get all sorts of things to improve our lives.
pwr,
The idea that American goods are always superior is nonsense, blatant bull. Foriegn goods can and often are of very high quality.
Nevertheless, even if you made USA high quality goods and people didn't want to buy them, why on earth would you put a gun to their heads and make them pay you for stuff they don't want?
If you cant stay in business it means you are using resources producing something that people don't want or are unwilling to pay for - it means you are hurting our economy - we should not be forced to keep you in business. You have to innovate and figure out what people want, maybe that means using different resources to produce the same good so it is cheaper. Maybe people like things that are less expensive for example, why have a TV made out of Titatium when it could be made out of plastic. Clearly the titatium would last longer and survive a beating but we are fine with the much cheaper plastic.
Patrick, please explain this further:
"Third, and my favorite, they could subsidize their own industries. Sure that puts American exports at a slight disadvantage at first and boosts their own imports to the US. But A) the chinese people are subsidizing US AMERICANS to buy their products - WHAT A PRESENT! and B) subsidized industries stagnate quickly and in the end are so poorly managed they cannot innovate and keep up with the competition."
Point "A" makes no sense to me, and point "B" simply isn't true in this case as it is American companies that are supplying the designs and to some extent the technology (except the robotics, that comes from Japan) that is used to build the products with almost no cost of labor. The American market is flooded with cheap goods that US-based manufacturers simply can not compete with. And while the quality is arguably inferior, it doesn't matter since the average American can't afford anything better because the factory jobs with reasonable pay have been replaced by service jobs at mostly minimum pay.
And I must point out that Toyota is subsidized by the Japanese government, but I doubt anyone would claim that they have stagnated or failed to progress. To add insult to injury, thanks to NAFTA, Toyota can bring in all kinds of major components thru Mexico, no matter the actual country of origin, assemble them here, and claim to be an American car (thanks, NASCAR, you idiots) and take all those pieces of paper back to Japan. I must admit I find it ironic that Japan is now facing its own troubles with South Korean goods.
As for trading pieces of paper for tangible goods, that goes completely out the window or turns into hyper-inflation if our so-called partners ever lose faith in the dollar or decide that we are indeed bankrupt.
Unless we get our house in order, this is the last hurrah for the USA. It is China, India, and the like that have been financing out debt laden growth. The one great fear is that the third world powerhouses like China and India stop taking our dollars and stop buying our T-bills. To say they will continue to be suckers for our debt is ignorant. The rest of the world is tired of licking our boots for scraps. They are tired of Wall Street money men collapsing their economies to pad their fortunes. The world economy is a shambles so the dollar is riding high but every time someone thinks they see green shoots the dollar tanks. Once the problems are worked out and the world economy improves the dollar will be almost worthless on the world stage. We can paper our walls with worthless dollars. Those cheap Chinese goods were only cheap because the Chinese undervalue their currency to get business. We have so many educated idiots in this country that believe we will be the brains of the world while they do the work. While our kids are inclining towards music and designing video games, the rest of the world is turning out engineers, mathemeticians, and scientists. They also think they will be the brains of the world and they are on track to kick our butts.
So Patty boy spout all your Economics 101 bull. Pretty soon reality will rear it's ugly head and payment will be demanded. The world is diversifying away from us so when that day comes they will no longer fear our collapse. It doesn't help that when we do invent something we send it to overseas to be made. The longer this economic crisis goes on the more pathetic your hero Milton Friedman looks. Just another quack economic fad.
Many people say Las Vegas needs to diversify. Get into the wheelbarrow business. If we continue to print money and buy on credit we will be like Germany after WW I. The German mark was almost worthless and many people got paid in wheelbarrows full of marks. Sometimes twice a day. Zimbabwe has a 1 or 10 million pound note that won't get you much of anything. Welcome to Patricks future.
A free market destroys itself. After all, if it's free, there are no restrictions or laws to stop you running your competition into the ground. To foster competition and innovation, we have anti-monopoly laws, patent protection, minimum markup laws, and such. A totally free market would be a take no prisoners wrestling match with a few winners and the rest of us losers.
So Patrick, we should not worry about those foreigners holding all of our dollars. Let's relax all laws and let them buy anything they want in this country. Let them buy Intel to get all their research to send back to China. Shut down the offices and layoff the ones who don't want to move to China. Buy some big defense contractors and do the same thing. Dismantle the companies and our military protection at the same time. Buy up high tech companies, ship the research back home, close the operation down. Go free market.
The military has been putting up their own chip plants as our chip manufacturers have sent their manufacturing overseas. What if we PO'd China and they pressed a button and all the Chinese chips we had installed in our military equipment fried. Same with other high tech devices. Gone from the greatest superpower the world has ever seen to a third rate banana republic at the push of a button. All because we were too cheap and lazy to make our own. Putting the fate of your country in the hands of foreigners to enhance some CEO's bonus has less to do with the free market as it does with American managers always looking for the easy way out. With China keeping the exchange rate on their currency artificially low it makes it even easier. If there really was a free market there would be no cheap Chinese goods or undervalued currency.
odeman,
You say, "A free market destroys itself." And you say, "...the rest of the world is turning out engineers, mathemeticians, and scientists. They also think they will be the brains of the world and they are on track to kick our butts.
China and India are "powerhouses" because they're adopting free markets. So is the free market the path to destruction or to wealth creation?
El Lobo,
You say, "I don't understand how American workers are going to be able to find good paying jobs and earn a live-able wage if we continue to lose our manufacturing base...We continue to import hundred's of billions of dollars in foreign made goods but export very little in return."
The U.S. is the world's third largest exporter, and 83% of our exports are manufactured. The percentage of our GDP that comes from manufacturing has been falling steadily, but not because we don't make things. Every economically significant country in the world has experienced the same thing, including China. Manufacturing as a percent of world GDP has been falling because productivity is increasing as a result of gains in technology. The same thing happened in farming. In 1900, 25% of the U.S. population was engaged in farming. Today it's less than 3%, but we produce more food than ever.
boftx,
Patrick is right. In the 1930's Congress passed the Smoot-Hawley trade act, which raised tariffs on just about every imported good. Other countries retaliated and world trade collapsed, plunging the U.S. deeper into depression. Unemployment reached almost 25%.
The U.S. economy is not an island. Our prices, industries, and labor markets are tied into the rest of the world. Trade restrictions don't change that. With the rise of emerging free markets in China, India, Eastern Europe, Latin America, and smaller Asian nations, the U.S. must compete or decline. It's never fun to adjust, especially when you're comfortable. But we must.
Bot.
If Santa Clause brought you a present would you complain?
If a friend said "hey you don't have enough money to get that cool jacket, here is $20" would you throw a fit?
This is what we Americans do when our foreign competition gets subsidized. They are giving us a gift.
Yes the Japanese subsidize and protect much of their domestic market. But their domestic market really stinks. Its also very puny. Japanese exporters on the other hand are subject to intense competition on the global market which is why Japanese products have been really good. But don't confuse Japans nearly 2 decade long slide to believe that protecting domestic markets means more wealth.
Ode,
"After all, if it's free, there are no restrictions or laws to stop you running your competition into the ground."
Right and how do you run your competition into the ground? By offering a better quality product at a lower price"
"To foster competition and innovation, we have anti-monopoly laws, patent protection, minimum markup laws, and such. A totally free market would be a take no prisoners wrestling match with a few winners and the rest of us losers."
Actually there is evidence to suggest that monopolies cannot exist in a free market. Why? Because competition actually destroys them. I should also note, that not a single monopoly (that I or many other people can think of) has existed without government protection. When governments protect industry you don't have a free market.
"So Patrick, we should not worry about those foreigners holding all of our dollars."
No, but there is some problems like A) they finance big government spending when they buy treasury bonds and B) the Fed is printing dollars faster than you can say "I'll be a monkey's uncle"
"Let's relax all laws and let them buy anything they want in this country. Let them buy Intel to get all their research to send back to China. Shut down the offices and layoff the ones who don't want to move to China."
Yup, why not. They have to spend billions if not trillions to get that stuff. We can then take that money and invest it in other areas, new technologies. So they get the old stuff and we build new stuff. How bad can that be. They would also have to waste trillions to move all these high tech factories and workers to China -- so don't be so melodramatic.
"The military has been putting up their own chip plants as our chip manufacturers have sent their manufacturing overseas."
Now you are getting nutty, I could come up with all sorts of doomsday sci fi scenarios for big government. Your opposition to free trade extends all the way down to these extreme implausible scenarios. Next you'll be telling me we have to have government run everything just so the one armed crack addicted mom with eight children gets a fair shake.
"With China keeping the exchange rate on their currency artificially low it makes it even easier. If there really was a free market there would be no cheap Chinese goods or undervalued currency."
China cannot keep its exchange rate artificially low forever. It is nonsensical to assume that you can keep the price of any commodity lower or higher than its real market value for very long. Check out the Asian financial crisis for evidence -- it always collapses.
And one last point -- China is screwing its own people with this policy. They are making Chinese people pay higher prices, that is a by product of artificially low currency values.
"Next you'll be telling me we have to have government run everything just so the one armed crack addicted mom with eight children gets a fair shake."
When I was a PhD student I actually had a classmate use this as an excuse to support big-government. Yes, he actually said "one-armed crack addicted mom with eight children"
US companies pay the highest taxes in the world, currently 35% - 41% in state and federal taxes. The maximum will rise to 46.2 percent in 2010 when Obama's tax increases are implemented. If we could de-incentivise American businesses from moving their manufacturing plants outside of the US instead of doing things like implementing cap and tax, it would go a long way towards bolstering our economy and creating and keeping American jobs.
It's outrageous that we're facing huge reductions in corporate profits, high numbers of business bankruptcies, and massive corporate layoffs, that our congressmen are rabidly working to increase tax rates and fees on corporations and businesses. All this while the White House and a most representatives in Congress promise more tax increases and the elimination of many tax credits. Instead of helping US companies be more competitive and profitable, and allowing the US economy to remain the job creating engine and economic driver of the world, our politicians are punishing and handicapping them.
Honestly, what did you think would happen? Attitudes don't need to change, policies and politicians need to quit effing up the economy and let businesses do what they do best - create jobs, keep money flowing, and help America thrive.
lazyfaire.....
I repeat what I said:
"I don't understand how American workers are going to be able to find good paying jobs and earn a live-able wage if we continue to lose our manufacturing base...We continue to import hundred's of billions of dollars in foreign made goods but export very little in return."
You said "the U.S. is the world's third largest exporter, and 83% of our exports are manufactured...."
I can well remember when the U.S. was the number #1 exporter of goods and anything worth having was made in the United States. I would love to see a link or two that backs up what you're saying.....to be honest with you, I don't believe it.
Also, part of the unemployment problem we have today is due to the disappearance of American jobs, mostly manufacturing jobs, to points off shore. Go in any WalMart and see if you can find anything that was actually produced in the good ole USA......good luck with that!
I see that both you and Patrick didn't address what I said about the fact that we import over 70% of the oil that we use. That's money going out of the country, not comig in....I guess both you and Patrick consider that a good thing since you didn't address the problem......Right?
China enjoys "favorite trade status" with us. In other words, trade between the US and China is not completely "free trade" as Patrick would have us believe.... China hold the upper hand. There's numerous American manufactured goods that China does not allow us to sell in China but the oppositre is not true....
Evidence points out that America's middle class is taking a real hit with the loss of jobs going off shore. With the loss of our middle class will come the loss of our form of government....a democracy depends upon a large and vibrant middle class. If we lose our middle class, we lose our system....a system that has had a great deal deal to do with the greatness of this country.
There was numerous other points that I made that you and Patrick ignored but I'm not surprised....
El Lobo,
Most of what you say seems correct doesn't it? But when we look hard we realize things are not as they seem. I didn't always come to these conclusions it took years of reading and debate to realize my world view was wrong (I, in fact, once thought like you) but I soon realized my brain wasn't thinking about the issues correct. We are going to have to change the way you think"
You said,
"we import over 70% of the oil that we use. That's money going out of the country, not comig in"
So what? We send out green pieces of paper and we get oil to power our cars, lubricate metals, heat our homes. Not a bad deal. I already said your worst case scenario is that they bury the paper and it never comes back, is actually a good thing...we would have the cheapest export industry in the world.
On China's most favored nation status...
Multilateral free trade is best, followed by bilateral followed by unilateral. Prosperity goes down hill fast once you start doing protectionism and at the end you end up like North Korea - dirt poor.
So if China refuses to allow some of our imports - SO WHAT! That means there are more domestic goods for Americans to buy. At the end of the day what matters more: The money in your wallet or the stuff you bought with it to make your life better.
Realize that money is just a piece of paper, it is what we buy with it that matters. Don't get hung up on exports get hung up about how much stuff we Americans can buy. Remember, every good exported out of the country is a good that WE CANNOT ENJOY.
Evidence does not suggest the middle class is losing ground. Life is getting better and our standard of living is rising. You really have to cheat on the data to come to any other conclusion. Here is a short video on that subject http://reason.tv/video/show/living-large...
I'll be happy to address any other points or objections you might have.
Here Bot and El Lobo,
Try this game: http://desertislandgame.com/
This is on David Ricardo's key discovery into free markets - comparative advantage. Its about how trade is mutually beneficial even if you are at a disadvantage producing every conceivable good.
I will bet the writer of the article has shopped at Wall Mart or Target more than once. We get cheap junk because we buy cheap junk. Has nothing to do with pride, just economics.
Patrick.....
I get a kick out of your belief that money is just money....no, I should have said money is just "green pieces of paper."
Your stance that some how you have seen the light when it comes to the world, and what makes the world economy "tick," while the rest of us just don't get it, is beyond arrogance on your part.
So you have read a litle bit, you have debated a little bit.....big ******* deal. Guess what? You're not the Lone Ranger when it comes to doing both!
Your statement that "I didn't always come to these conclusions it took years of reading and debate to realize my world view was wrong but I soon realized my brain wasn't thinking about the issues correct" is more of the same.
It's nice to know that some how you have this great intellectual insight to how the world actually works, and the rest of us just don't measure up to your insight or intellect.
Money going out of this country at the rate its leaving is scary. Money that was made and re-invested in this country, or brought into the country by exports in the years immediately after World War II resulted in the highest living standard in the world. I'm amazed at how little history you seem to know or understand.
Your denial that the American middle class is currently taking a hit shows that you do very little reading but mostly talking....
To hear you tell it, the fact that we are spending over 800 billion dollars a year to purchase foreign oil is a good thing. I guess I can assume by that line of thinking, that you see no need for this country to become energy independent or switch from using mainly fossil fuels to renewable fuels...Right?
Your belief that "free trade" is the answer to all of our problems is total nonsense... Any type of "free trade" must also consist of "fair trade." That currently is not going on between us & China.
Your statement that "evidence does not suggest the middle class is losing ground....Life is getting better and our standard of living is rising" is scary.....
Look at the present economy. Look at the number of unemployed. Look at the number of people who have lost their homes in this country in the last 18 months. Look at the number of bankruptcies in the Las Vegas valley each month.....
Yep! Things are really getting better & our standard of living is rising....
Hey, I have a bridge in New York that I would love to sell you...I'll give you a heck of a deal.
EL Lobo,
Yes, I saw the light, I've got a grounded, realistic, and logically consistent understanding of the world. I can explain why A leads to Z while you and many others can see only A to B. I wasn't born this way, it was years of study and debate. Most people don't have time for that so they can only see A to B (what is immediate, for example you won't see the third tier effects or people not immediately affected by policy).
As for our standard of living it is most certainly up over the last few decades. The idea that our standard of living has declined since 1970 is hogwash and nonsense. Today most Americans have tvs, toasters, microwaves, fridges, homes, cars and these devices are even better than 30-40 years ago. Homes are bigger, cars are safer, tvs are better. We have more medicine that saves more lives. More food and a hell of a lot of options on almost anything we want. It even takes us less time at work to afford the things we want.
Life is good, life is better and life will continue to get better (so long, that is, we don't fall into socialism because that is a recipe for stagnation).
If your point is that our standard of living is down due to a recession compared to 2 years ago. Woopty-do because that is what recessions do. But in the long run, which is in fact what you were referring too, we are far better off than just decades ago.
"Money going out of this country at the rate its leaving is scary. Money that was made and re-invested in this country, or brought into the country by exports in the years immediately after World War II resulted in the highest living standard in the world. I'm amazed at how little history you seem to know or understand."
EL,
What do you think happens to the money we use to buy imports?
El Lobo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_ex...
According to the links supplied above:
US exports: $1.4 Trillion (number 3)
US imports: $2.2 Trillion (number 1)
This is a trade deficit of $800 Billion! Even worse, that means we import more than half again that which we export. That is NOT a good sign for us. And still worse, considering that we actually run a slight trade surplus for services, it means our manufacturing is in worse shape than the numbers suggest.
Patrick said.....
"El lobo:
What do you think happens to the money we use to buy imports?"
Not sure what happens with every penny that we use to buy imports with, but a great deal of it goes to China who then loans it back to us. We have been using the money to fight a war (that we didn't need and couldn't afford) in the Middle East. We have also been using the money to pay our monthly bils.
In short, we have gone from the world's greatest creditor nation to the world's greatest debtor nation in a very short period of time....
Are you now going to tell me that carrying the huge debt that we have is a good (no, make that great...) thing?
boftx.....
Thank you for the post. The only thing I can figure out is that both Patrick & lazyfaire believe that the current economic situation that we find ourselves in is a very good thing...
El Lobo,
Here is what happens to the money:
If country X gets $100 million in US dollars they must turn around and use it to buy $100 million worth of US stuff or buy from someone who is willing to accept US dollars and that means trading their US dollars for another currency.
If few are willing to buy the US currency then the value of the US currency falls and that country will not sell so much stuff to the US...meaning imports in the US fall and the trade deficit decreases.
But lets say lots of people want the dollar and that means its value increases. Lots of countries want to sell stuff to the US or trade for US currency.
But if you are trying to get US currency it probably means you're trying to buy something in the US. Maybe its American exports or maybe its American capital - stocks, bonds, buildings, whatever.
The end result is that every dollar that leaves our country must come back at some point.
If a country holds on to the dollar to prop up an artificial exchange rate (it won't last long because there is not an unlimited supply of American dollars) then who cares. We have the cheapest export industry in the country (green pieces of paper) and that nation is forcing its people to subsidize OUR consumption of their products.
We get lots of cheap goods and lose almost nothing but paper to get them.
Nothing is bad about this.
Bot and Lobo
I looked up US Trade deficit data from 1961-2008.
I divided in half. On one side years in which the deficit increased on the other years in which the deficit decreased.
In years when the trade deficit decreased:
Unemployment averaged 5.92%, GDP growth averaged 2.3%, export growth averaged 13.09%, import growth averaged 7.25%
In years when the trade deficit increased:
Unemployment 5.83%, GDP growth 3.8%, export growth 7.64%, import growth 12.48%.
Based on close to 50 years worth of data, when the trade deficit increases we have lower unemployment and higher GDP growth. Contrary to your opinion exports continue to grow, not shrink.
Patrick......
You didn't answer several of the questions that I brought up. Why is that?
You didn't comment on the fact that we are in hock to China. As long as China is willing to loan us money which we need in order to pay our monthly bills and fund an unneeded war in the Middle East, everything will continue as it has been. But, if on the other hand, China stops loaning us money (buying t-bills for example) what then?
I ask you much earlier if we should be concerned about the huge trade deficit that we have with most of the rest of the world. I never heard a "yes" or "no" answer. From what I gather from your posts, I must surmise that you believe that out trade deficit is a good thing...Right?
I ask you if you thought that the huge debt that we're carrying was a major problem but I got NO answer. Is it a problem?
Another question....How long can we continue to swim in a sea of red ink with out drowning? You tell me.....
I also ask you about the situation that we find ourselves in with our dependence on foreign oil. We spend over 700 billion dollars a year on foreign oil. Wouldn't it be better if we could become one of the leading producers of renewable energy in the world and keep most of the money in this country to be used for investment and growth. Doing that just might create new jobs at home.......keep in mind that we have approximately 14 million people currently unemployed.
Instead of importing energy, we would be exporting it......what a novel idea...
I agree that a certain portion of the money that we spend on imports comes back into the country but not all. Also, a majority of the money that comes back into the country is spent on buying up American assets. Is there a point of deminishing returns for us with this situation?
I believe we might have reached a point of deminishing returns when it comes to selling of this country one block at a time & a recent article I read that was written by Warren Buffet seemed to also say the same thing....
Buffet also believes that our huge trade deficit is a major problem for us....Buffet recently said:
"The U.S trade deficit is a bigger threat to the domestic economy than either the federal budget deficit or consumer debt and could lead to political turmoil... Right now, the rest of the world owns $3 trillion more of us than we own of them."
(January 20, 2006)
You seem to spent a great deal of your time talking economic theory and generalities.....that's fine but as you and I both know, theory is just that.....theory!
El Lobo, I've answered all your questions you haven't been paying attention.
"You didn't comment on the fact that we are in hock to China. As long as China is willing to loan us money which we need in order to pay our monthly bills and fund an unneeded war in the Middle East, everything will continue as it has been. But, if on the other hand, China stops loaning us money (buying t-bills for example) what then?"
Then our government would have to stop deficit spending. Problem solved
"I ask you much earlier if we should be concerned about the huge trade deficit that we have with most of the rest of the world. I never heard a "yes" or "no" answer. From what I gather from your posts, I must surmise that you believe that out trade deficit is a good thing...Right?"
Trade deficits are neither good nor bad because they mean different things for different countries. For the United States our trade deficit has been funded by foreign investment. Basically they give us money, we invest it make cool stuff, and then we get to buy lots of whatever we want. Our trade deficit has basically singled that the US has had a strong economy. But you shouldn't worry, one way or the other about a trade deficit, you'll lose sleep over nothing.
"Another question....How long can we continue to swim in a sea of red ink with out drowning? You tell me....."
As long as people around the world are willing to invest their dollars in the US then we'll be having a trade deficit. If you want to stop it I suggest a complete collapse of the US economy complete with rapid inflation, drastic increases in taxes, protectionist trade barriers, and the US government nationalizing private industry. If you do this, I hope you won't lose sleep over impoverishing millions of Americans.
"I also ask you about the situation that we find ourselves in with our dependence on foreign oil."
Who cares. We send them green pieces of paper and we get lots of oil. But hey, remember we are also one of the biggest energy produces in the world. It just so happens we are a large consumer too. So the rest of the world has gone to work to make our lives better. That is a great thing. We get lots of energy and our lives are better off for it.
"Wouldn't it be better if we could become one of the leading producers of renewable energy in the world"
"Only if by producing renewable energy we were making a profit. If we subsidize renewable energy we are literally destroying wealth and making ourselves poorer because of it.
Also, a majority of the money that comes back into the country is spent on buying up American assets. Is there a point of diminishing returns for us with this situation?"
Of course, they may decide they have enough American capital and are comfortable taking risks elsewhere in the world. Or the American market might decline and not be such a great investment and they take their money elsewhere. Still, the only way for them to get rid of American dollars is to find someone willing to purchase them and in the end an American dollar is only worth something if it can buy American goods and American capital.
"Buffet also believes that our huge trade deficit is a major problem for us"
Yes he does, and I honestly don't know why he says such a thing, its just not something to worry about unless you are a nationalist or a xenophobe. Maybe he's concerned about his own bottom line, that is, foreigners are competing with him on investing in American capital. Maybe its screwing up his bets in foreign markets. I don't know. The only real threat is the fact that the US government finances itself with treasury bonds. The only real problem would be if a foreign nation decided to sell the bonds it held at a loss, thus preventing the US government from financing itself (who would buy expensive US bonds) but that isn't a problem of the trade deficit that is a problem with BIG IRRESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT.
http://blog.mises.org/archives/005825.as...
here is a quick article on the Chinese central banks gulping billions in US dollars. Its far more their problem than ours.
One benefit has been the fact that US has not faced the inflation that we should have, had those dollars been circulating in the United States.
Patrick.....
I'm starting to believe that Obama (and George W. before Obama) made a grave mistake by not naming you to their Cabinets as their chief economic advisor.....if the government would only listen to you...
Allow me to get this straight....
1. Trade deficits mean nothing for us....we're actually benefiting from our current trade deficit. History tells us that an increase in our trade deficit actually increases our prosperity at home.
2. The huge debt that we're carrying is nothing to worry about. We can always count on China to keep bailing us out (loaning us money) & buying American assets. Its basically a win, win, win situation for us...
3. When it comes to us selling off all of our assets, it's actually a good idea. That's money coming into the country. Who cares if other countries own pretty much everything that we once had...
4. Deciding to become energy independent is probably a mistake for us. Importing all that foreign oil is no big deal and it has no negative long term effect on this country. We might as well let the oil countries do all the work & we will just buy & use their oil to make our lives better... They're doing all the work & we're getting all the benefits....
5. Free and unlimited trade is the key. It really doesn't matter if the Chinese or any other country have certain advantages over us when it comes to trade with us.....there's no such thing as unfair trade.
Is that about right? That seems simple enough. I can't understand why a super rich & successful business man/investor such as Warren Buffet doesn't see it your way. I wonder how Warren was able to accumulate all that wealth.....must be all luck on his part!
You didn't mention the war in the Middle East that has forced us to spent in excess of 700 billion dollars (that we didn't have..) over the last 5-6 years. I guess expensive wars have little to do with balanced budgets or huge national debt....Right?
"1. Trade deficits mean nothing for us....we're actually benefiting from our current trade deficit. History tells us that an increase in our trade deficit actually increases our prosperity at home."
A trade deficit means different things for different countries. For the United States, history suggests that our trade deficit has singled that our economy has been strong as evident by the large amount of foreign investment here.
"2. The huge debt that we're carrying is nothing to worry about. We can always count on China to keep bailing us out (loaning us money) & buying American assets. Its basically a win, win, win situation for us..."
Not all of this is "debt" as you would imagine it. Some of it is treasury bonds, which is a debt and that can be bad but that is the fault of government. Some of it is loans to American companies and that isn't necessarily good or bad. Some of it is the purchase of stocks and buildings and again that isn't always good or bad. You can purchase bad stocks and crumbling buildings -- but that would be a problem for the foreigners, not us.
"3. When it comes to us selling off all of our assets, it's actually a good idea. That's money coming into the country. Who cares if other countries own pretty much everything that we once had... "
That probably won't happen because there is so much wealth and not enough money in the world to actually buy everything -- not to mention most of the wealth in the world is concentrated here so they gota bid up the price of our own stuff against the wealthiest people in the world. But even if it did happen we would have all sorts of money to buy more wealth and create new wealth.
"4. Deciding to become energy independent is probably a mistake for us. Importing all that foreign oil is no big deal and it has no negative long term effect on this country. We might as well let the oil countries do all the work & we will just buy & use their oil to make our lives better... They're doing all the work & we're getting all the benefits.... "
Being energy independent is no different than being food independent. It means we'll have lots of costly energy (or food) its NOT an advisable policy to pay more for anything when you could get the same thing for less.
As far as investing in renewable, this is what you are getting at, it will actually destroy wealth if we subsidize renewable (as with any resource). If it cannot maintain a profit it means they are using more resources than people are willing to pay for -- that is waste and that means we destroy wealth (those resources could be used to build something people actually want).
"5. Free and unlimited trade is the key. It really doesn't matter if the Chinese or any other country have certain advantages over us when it comes to trade with us.....there's no such thing as unfair trade. "
The best situation is universal free trade, there are simply no barriers. But if you had to choose between unilateral free trade (only you doing it) and protectionism (raising trade barriers to prevent foreign goods from coming ashore) you would want to pick free trade.
Tell me, are you interested in putting a gun to peoples head and forcing them to buy things they don't want so people can keep their job? That is what protectionism is.
And yes, all free trade is fair. Free trade, by definition is a voluntary transaction. Anything that is voluntary is by definition fair.
"Is that about right? That seems simple enough. I can't understand why a super rich & successful business man/investor such as Warren Buffet doesn't see it your way. I wonder how Warren was able to accumulate all that wealth.....must be all luck on his part! "
Actually free trade is incredibly damaging to those who already have wealth. The best way to protect your own wealth once you have it is to ensure you can have no competition. Lots of taxes, government regulation, and protectionism can protect Buffet and others from upstarts that can topple their empires.
So yes protectionism protects aristocrats and the existing wealth from new wealth (and screws all the middle class and poor in the process by forcing us to pay higher prices).
"You didn't mention the war in the Middle East that has forced us to spent in excess of 700 billion dollars (that we didn't have..) over the last 5-6 years. I guess expensive wars have little to do with balanced budgets or huge national debt....Right?"
I'm against war -- in fact, I believe if we had more limited government, more capitalism, less government interference in the market and more free trade war would be less likely. Free trade makes war expensive. Expensive wars are hard to fight. But when you are in a country that spends $3 trillion a year, a war that costs less than $70 billion a year to fight is peanuts -- we've spent more on welfare programs in a single year than the entire middle eastern campaign combined.
Let me give you a few quotes from some smart famous people to sum up what I just said:
"The spirit of the tariff is malevolent. It flies in the face of all American ideals... It helps a few rich men to get rich, it helps the great mass of poor men to get poorer. I am for free trade because I am for anything that will break down the barriers between peoples. I want to see the countries all wide open" - Walt Whitman
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant" - John Stuart Mill
"But war, although the greatest of consumers, not only produces nothing in return, but, by abstracting labour from productive employment and interrupting the course of trade, it impedes, in a variety of indirect ways, the creation of wealth; and, should hostilities be continued for a series of years, each successive war-loan will be felt in our commercial and manufacturing districts with an augmented pressure." -Richard Cobden, PM
"As every individual, therefore, endevours as much as he can both to employ his capital"and so to do direct that industry that its produce may be of the greatest value... He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it"he intends only his own security"only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intentions" By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it."-Adam Smith
Patrick......
This has been enjoyable but its getting a little old. You and I disagree on several points and we could debate until the "cows come home" and I wouldn't change your mind and you wouldn't change mine...
I'm not against free trade but I don't see that happening....matter of fact I don't believe it has ever truly taken place. Some one always has an advantage and forces some one else to give up more than they should have to or want to....
Surely you don't believe that our present trade pact with China is fair and equal to both parties...
On second thought, you probably do believe that...
Protectionism generally does not work. History clearly points that out. The Republican Party of the 1920's led us down the road to economic ruin and depression with its protective tariff policies... The Hawley-Smoot (1930) and the Fordney-McCumber (1922) tariffs contributed to bringing about the Great Depression. Also the lack of governmental over-sight and regulation contributed. Of course, the depression was a world-wide depression and was running amok in Europe before coming to the United States.
I'm very proud to be an American and I happen to believe that too many of the US corporations have decided to raise their corporate flags higher on the flag pole than they raise the American flag.....In other words, greed, greed and more greed has been the driving force behind everything that they do. I'm sure you believe that corporate greed is a great thing....
I also happen to believe that a certain amount of government regulation is a good thing....Once all controls are taken off of the economy, it's only a matter of time until we see a repeat of what got us into our current mess.
Again, I would be surprised if you believe that...
The repeal of the Glass-Stegal Act in 1999 was also a factor in bringing about our current demise. I would be surprised if you believe that.
Your statement that " I believe if we had more limited government, more capitalism, less government interference in the market and more free trade war would be less likely. Free trade makes war expensive. Expensive wars are hard to fight" is interesting but very naive.
The cost of a war has seldom kept any nation (particularly the industrialized nations) from going to war. Aren't you forgetting about the role of the military-industrial complex? Don't you believe that the American military-industrial complex is a great thing. We sell all kinds of military hardware through out the world.....that's a perfect example of capitalism at work.....Right?
By the way, the cost of the war in the Middle East has been over 100 billion dollars a year, not 70 billion..... Actually, a little more than 2 billions dollars a week.
Again, its been fun but it's time to move on....I won't change your views and you won't change mine. Thank you for the discussion.......
No, greed is ONLY good if greed occurs in a competitive free market place. Otherwise greed is used to rob and steal (like getting governmetn to fork over billions for your companies light rail project).
The Glass-Stegal Act was NOT the cause of our current crisis. If anything it will make getting out of this mess a little easier (but all the bailouts and government spending aren't going to let that happen). I find it very interesting that liberals can only point to 1 instance of deregulation and claim that is why our economy failed with dozens of regulatory agencies, and thousands upon thousands of regulations on the books - even the Federal Register has been growing (that is the list of daily regulatory activies). Its also very interesting to watch as liberals completly ignore all the really bad incentives government put in place - incentives matter.
On the Iraq war, I'd rather not have the expenditure, but $100 million is still peanuts compared to our social weflare spending each year. Social Security and medicare and medicade make up over $1.2 billion in spending a year.
Last year Health and Human services spent $70 billion
Education $45 billion
Housing and Urban Development: $47 billion
so on and so forth...
I've enjoyed the debate too, enjoy the weekend.
"Surely you don't believe that our present trade pact with China is fair and equal to both parties...
On second thought, you probably do believe that..."
Well we aren't really in a free trade relationship with them we are just in a "less restricted trade" relationship.
The US does restrict certain goods from coming in, or taxes the ones that do. That isn't fair to American consumers.
China does the same thing, and that isn't fair to their people.
China also keeps their exchange rate artificially low which again harms their people but allows us to buy cheap Chinese goods - so its like a gift.
America needs more free and fair trade and we can do it by dropping all protectionist barriers with China and ever other country.
Although things made in the US are STILL high quality, corporations prefer cheaper labor. It's part of the globalization process but I do not like it personally.