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twitterLetter to the editor:
‘Ma’am’ is a term of respect in military
Wednesday, July 1, 2009 | 2:05 a.m.
Regarding Carmine A. DiFazio’s Friday letter to the editor in the Las Vegas Sun, headlined “Respect the position, man or woman,” about Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., correcting Gen. Michael Walsh when he addressed her as ma’am recently:
Anyone who knows anything about military protocol knows that when a military officer calls a woman “ma’am,” he is paying her the highest respect.
It sounded to me that she was talking down to a man whose military career outshines her political career.
Discussion: 46 comments so far…
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What political career! Lets face it she's a loser, Back in the day if she would have tried that with General Patton he would have got up and walk over and slap her. LOL > HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!
This story has been blown way out of proportion. I'm no fan of Boxer, or any Democrat for that matter, but she did not correct or disrespect the General, she quite courteously just asked him to address her as Senator rather than ma'am. I don't have any problem with that.
Many in DC view her as not so bright (some even call her the dumbest Senator) without regard to her political view or party association.
I agree. I thought she was very rude. I don't agree with enteaser - I felt her request was dripping with attitude. Not to mention arrogance.
Military people are generally uneducated guys with big egos. They need to show respect for the public that pays their salaries, housing and healthcare.
Military people are whats wrong with America. Big attititude no education, no respect.
Nick, you're kidding right? The military is full of heros who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for you to have the freedom to say what you believe, no matter how wrong you are. Without a strong military, a paper like the LVSun would be presenting their one sided opinion by force, not by choice, which is the way it is now.
If the general was addressing the other senators as "Senator" and changed to "ma'am" when it came to her, I would say she had a point. but it that wasnt the case, she needs to sit down and shut up.
"Nick says... Military people are generally uneducated guys with big egos. They need to show respect for the public that pays their salaries, housing and healthcare. Military people are whats wrong with America. Big attititude no education, no respect."
Nick: They wouldn't let you in would they? It's tough, I know...with that minimum requirement of a high diploma. I'm LMAO at your stupidity and YOUR lack of respect.
Protocol, it may not be most peoples forte; the General should have been well informed in advance of how to address the Senator.
Likewise, an enlisted personal or junior officer would be wise to know how to address the General, well in advance prior to an office meeting with him.
The Senator trumped the General and he had to bite his lip, however painful it might have been for his pride, or may have just been a simple slip of the mind in addressing the Senator, which, was caught and nipped to maintain protocol.
Protocol, it may not be your forte; all formal liaisons have their proper form of address.
Still...in the military Ma'am is standard form of respect. If she were a general in the miliary she would still be called Ma'am and not General. What she did was in seriously poor taste and not very bright.
Gunslinger: You are right inasmuch as there is protocol...but I still think the General was doing as he was taught. And frankly, would any man consider it disrespectful to address a woman as Ma'am?
I'm LMAO with indythinker. Where does Nick think he'd be without "generally uneducated guys with big egos", as he puts it.
Indy:
I subpose you can go into a courtroom and hear "Ma,am" when a lawyer is addressing a female Judge. I don't think so, "Your Honor".
Without even looking i'll bet the General is better educated than the Junior Senator from California.
GS: That might be the only exception to a "generalized" rule of etiquette. How about this...Madam President?
Indy:
That is no where near "ma,am" that is Madam. I would agree with you if you worte Ma,am President.
It doesn't work does it.
It is about protocol for senate hearings not a military conferance.
More to the point the Senator was only pointing out how she wanted to be addressed, and the General being less rank must complie with it.
As we say RHIP, ask if you don't know what that means.
"Still...in the military Ma'am is standard form of respect. If she were a general in the miliary she would still be called Ma'am and not General."
What? By whom? But surely you jest.
And ..
by the same token, if the good General were in court and stood before a female judge, would he refer to her as A) Your Honor; B) Judge; or C) Ma'am?
What I think? I think the General was being demeaning and disrespectful, but in a "plausibly deniable" way.
Gunslinger, A couple of questions that you may be able to help with.
Does a Senator or Congressman actually have a higher "rank" than any military officer or enlisted person? I am even not sure about chain of command including Congress.
Would not any military officer be briefed before any testamony before Congress including any member that wishes to be addressed a certain way?
StanG a.k.a. Negative Ned...How is it that you can find the negative in absolutely EVERYTHING? What you get picked on a kid so now you want to get your just desserts on society any way you can? On anyone...even if you don't know them personally?
If the General was guilty of anything judging by these posts...it was ignorance of "SENATE" protocol. Nothing more...and certainly nothing less. Why would anyone believe that it was an intentional slight? And for what reason?
Unless, of course, the good General is from California.
You know what they say...if you look hard enough for the bad in folks and you'll find it.
Gunslinger... I stand corrected.
Comment removed by staff.
Harold Corda - Excellent letter but you're engaging in a futile exercise as Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) is the TYPICAL Washington (DC) LIBERAL politician, disdainful and disrespectful of the military and any representative of that service. She is a disgrace and an embarrassment to our nation. Hopefully, the voters of California will terminate her government "service" in the next election.
I spent 25 years in the military, retired as a Lt. Colonel. Superiors officers are called "sir" or "ma'am." The general's term was in that context, not as a demeaning term. The President can be called sir/ma'am because he/she is the Commander in Chief (a superior officer). Sir or ma'am may not be the appropriate way to address a Senator, Congressman, or judge, since they are not superiors, but the senator's dressing down of the general was ungraceful and disrespectful.
Lazyfaire:
If something happens to the President, who takes the office- chain of command: please tell me where the General fits into that big picture.
One more thing, isn't it unconstitutional for the President to be a General, so there is no way a General will have any capitulation on the battle field.
The reason the President is the commander in chief is because he is voted into office by the people and not by any other means of appointment, visa-vie, congress, promotions, or battle skills.
Some history, that is how Mexico lost the entire west, congress learned from that and now it is not possible for a General-President like in the past with Washington.
As a Ret. Officer you may find it to be a bit unfortunate that people with less or no education can out rank you, get over it, that is just the way it is. The rules make it so rogue officers don't try and take over.
Resentment, I don't know, hit a nerve, maybe, but life is not fair both you and I know that having our past military experience. The military is not a democracy is it now, let's just say for the sake of argument that it was just a simple slip of the tongue by the General, and the Senator was well within her right to correct him.
News1950..."Hopefully, the voters of California will terminate her government "service" in the next election."
Wishful thinking...that nutcase along with Dianne Feinstein have been destroying CA since I was in junior high...at least 30 years of insanity from those two.
Gunslinger:
I referred to the President because someone else on this board did. As Commander in Chief, the President is in the chain of command and is the superior of all military members. Senators and judges are not. The problem arose because the general didn't know the correct form of address for a senator (so he went with the form used in the military), and the senator didn't know how military members address their superiors. She should have let it pass or spoken to him privately if it bothered her. Her action showed disrespect and a lack of grace.
More presidents were former generals than any other career, so while presidents are civilians, many have had military minds. As for me resenting superiors with less education, you're spouting nonsense. Maybe you should change your online moniker to "loosecannon."
lazyfaire:
I was ok with the thread and your views, opinion or take on the matter. I suppose it was a nerve, you have some nerve to want me to change my moniker for you pleasure.
Do me a favor and change yours to Lazy-Fairey, you prior post reveal you to be lazy looking for facts and slow to except apposing views. I can squeeze heads as good as the next guy if I want your "", but I was just posting without concern of making you wrong for your input, that you have a point to make, do so, but lets keep it lite, play nice, no need for you to call the school marm after you get up-set with my retaliation for your escalation of posts.
Read my post, where can you tell me it is possible for us to have a General-President. That past Presidents were once military generals, that's nice but still not on point, ok, but not the issue of who out ranks who is it.
Again, read what I wrote about the chain, then post you answer, and if you don't know forget it.
It would be better if we just post arbitrarily on the thread, make your point and as the senator said address me by my moniker as I will you.
Protocol.
Nick, "military guys are generally uneducated with big egos"
shows how little u know. as the saying goes, if u don't know what you're talking about, shut the **** up. watch the clip. the sarcasm and disrespect dripping from her voice is obvious. as for education in the military, the general probably is a West Point grad, which is every bit as difficult to gain entrance to and complete as the most selective Ivy League schools in the country. that's fact, not opinion. also, as a general, I would be very surprised if he did not have at least a masters degree.
and the senators statement that she "worked very hard to get that title". give me a break. our legislative branch hold the most cushy jobs in the world. they get treated like royalty. hard work indeed. if the work were so "difficult" there wouldn't be so many senators "able" to work into their sixties, seventies, and eighties. u won't find any seventy year old active duty soldiers. because THAT is REAL hard work.
furthermore, not only do ALL commissioned officers in the military hold at least a bachelors degree, in todays military, even most of the men and women who rise to the higher enlisted ranks have a college degree also, usually obtained while attending classes part time and serving full time.
GunslingerA10,
it is perfectly acceptable protocol to call a senator "sir" or "ma'am". it is what our servicemembers are trained to do. it is a very respectful term. there is no "lapse" in protocol. perhaps u should learn a bit about the military before u spout off, especially as u like to use the name of a military attack aircraft in your moniker, as u probably believe it makes u sound like a "tough guy".
BTW, Indy...
stick to your guns. your posts, as usual, have been right on point!
u were improperly corrected by someone who knows nothing of proper "protocol".
it is ABSOLUTELY proper protocol to address a member of congress, either house, as "Sir" or "Ma'am" based on their gender. as a prior commissioned officer who spend a year in the Washington DC area and met several of our legislative branch I can attest to this fact. and there is no special senate rule stating that u must address a senator as such, or that it is more proper or imperative than using "Sir" or "Ma'am".
Just an average joe:
Obviously you are in the intelligence field son, I use son as a term of endearment towards you, it would be nice if you understood of what you speak and take heed.
At this point, you can ask me to address you as: Joe, average joe, or anyway you would like to be addressed; being this is our first interaction. I can continue to address you as I like if I want to disrespect you, but those would be fighting words at that point.
You're a clear example of your post, I created that call-sign over 20 years ago when I was on active duty, don't try to 2v1 me, no matter how many places you have been to you're still green. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, lived it 26.5 years, but I need not make you look silly, you're doing that all on your own.
Relax, no need to brown-up you're nose for my sake, I am only pointing out that the Senator was in her right to request (demand) how she wanted to be addressed.
However, you fail to recognize her right as a Senator, regardless how up-set you might get for her correcting the General, it stands as it is; RHIP.
Now-now Joe, I know you're getting your'".. into a bunch. I am not a "tough guy" but I can still kick some ".in my age group.
You are right, The General was right to call the Senator Ma,am on his first address, but after she corrected him he didn't do it again, did he. If the Senator was out of line, out of order, or the General out ranked the Senator he would have continued with his Ma,am address.
Moreover, if the Senator was wrong to correct the General someone at the hearings would have made issue of it.
http://www.cftech.com/BrainBank/OTHERREF...
gunslinger a10
or I guess we should just call u john wayne. or maybe chuck norris.
after all, you've been there, done that, and even got the t-shirt!!!
I thank u for your military service. your posts certainly would not lead one to believe that you were career military, as obviously you have forgotten basic military etiquette and courtesy. and yes, those rules and regulations DO apply to addressing a member of congress.
again, thank you for your 26.5 years of service maintaining our nations fighting jets. if u had read my earlier posts, u may even find that you help back up my earlier assertions about the education attainment of our service personnel. As I have read several of your prior posts, and more often than not agreed with u wholeheartedly, it is obvious u are educated and well read. I would assume with 26.5 years of service u probably attained one of the higher enlisted ranks of E7 to E9, and u probably earned a college degree along the way, no?
But I do believe u are way off mark on this topic. the senator showed a distinct lack of class in public, something a leader, whether military or civilian, should strive never to do.
Are you familiar with Article 88, if you're not and you're still on active duty then post lightly, it's not about us, but about what you may want to posted about others? If you're ret. get it all out, voice it without regard, not.
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
gunslinger a10
this is your idea of an indirect threat???
your lack of response to my prior post shows all of us who have served exactly who we are dealing with. without actually saying it, u do everything you can to portray yourself as an ex- commissioned officer Air Force fighter pilot war hero ("you're still green..... been there, done that, got the t-shirt, lived it 26.5 years...")
the truth, as is obvious, while no less honorable in service to our country, is much more mundane, and safe. you should be proud of your enlisted service as an air force airman, whether you serviced jet engines or weapons systems, or served as an administrative clerk.
both my father, and stepfather, attained the rank of E9, Sergeant Major in the United States Army, and I can assure you I never thought less of them for not having earned a commission. they are also both proud of their service and would never, through less than complete truths attempt to glorify their rank or accomplishments.
your point of view on the senators disrespectful treatment of a general officer speaks volumes. were u a commissioned officer in the United States Air Force with 26.5 years of service, and a fighter pilot, you would most likely have attained the rank of 06 or 07, that being a "full bird" Colonel, or a Brigadier General, like the General who is a subject of our discussion.
I think ANYBODY would find it hard to believe that a Colonel or General, knowing everything it entails to rise to that rank, and the responsibility borne by that rank, would DEFEND Senator Boxer's rude tirade and open public disrespect of a General officer.
Joey;
What has made you so defensive that you jump at the closing of a door or a posting to show where the members of congress stand above military members? -President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department.
My fault for not using X-Large type or a crayon you can understand.
Read my posts; think about what is written, get a warm cup of shut the "up, read them again or however many times you need to read them depending on your comprehension to get the meaning to understand them.
Why you insist on making this about you or me is unconceivable. Get your head out of your".."Read son, read, you tire me on this subject, but only out of kindness do I continue to give you information that will allow you develop greater insight. Think of it as public service on my part, you can read right.
In life there are many people who you will find that will stand up to you and not be concerned with the adjectives you spew. My posts up to now have been mild but as I tire I will begin to water your eyes. Let us just leave it at that son.
B*S* Slinger,
u have been shown wrong on this topic by many who know better, but u lack the intestinal fortitude to "man up", own it, and move on. that doesn't surprise me, as that is a man u will never be.
just as u will never be a Commissioned Officer, or US AirForce fighter pilot, or a man of action. u are a technician or clerk, and while your service is honorable, it is NOT what u attempt to paint it as.
u have been exposed as the poseur, fake, charlatan, wannabe that u are.
u make personal attacks and speak with derision and condescension to those who would disagree with u, then u cry "foul" when u are responded to in kind.
i will not waste any more time pointing out the obvious. the veil has been lifted on your fake persona for all to see.
u are a sad, strange, little man.
Average imbecile joe-mama
You keep trying to deflect from the point, and make it personal. I have yet to disrespect any of your proposed military service to our country, if you really ever served, yet you try to attack my service duty.
I post freely, I have never tried to paint myself in any fashion, It is your hate ridden prejudiced mind that flows with terrible two year old syndrome, not getting your way. Now you find, it is eating you up inside because you want to strike out and show might. Settle down dumb "..your knowledge without understanding is useless.
That gnawing inside will not go away until you seek psychological attention. Get help soon, the people around you deserve better than your tantrums and unwillingness to understand others around you.
Let me help you a little, the displaced anger you demonstrate is a manifestation of fear. Are you afraid of the dark, do sudden movements startle you, do you have difficulty concentrating or sleeping? You don't need to live like that, there are clinics with out-patient services and meds; you can lead a productive life again.
Has it been so long that you have forgotten one-upmanship, if so and you need to keep this thing ugly, bring it on? I have up to now not attacked your service record, nor have I tried to unethically catch a glimmer of it, can you say the same. Eat.
you've been called out, exposed to the cold light of day for the phony tough guy u are.
and i have not attacked your service as a low ranking technician or clerk, who is obviously bitter about your station in life, and resents any high ranking commissioned officer.
as i told u, u should be proud of your service as it is, without trying to imply it is more than that. I HAVE read your posts ("no matter how many places you have been to you you're still green. been there, done that, got the t-shirt, lived it 26.5 years.....")
oooooh, you are such a tough macho hero!
sad, strange, little man.
I have to say, it's good to see the two of you attacking each other for once instead of ganging up on me! j/k..sorta
I am starting to enjoy this now; you are all bowed up calling me out. The more you post the more you sound like a grunt. Your psychotic controlling issues are showing through. When life deals you lemons make your cart a lemon-aid stand, now cart your" out.
I'm sorry you're lonesome in this life, but if you don't change your ways you will always be a sore loser and never get the help you need. Chin-up you poor sap, quit wallowing in your pitiful views of others, stop attempting to be the center of attention, and while there is no shame in seeking medical attention there is shame in you trying to hijack the topic of this thread from the main point, the Senators right to request (demand) how she wanted to be addressed at the senate hearings.
I am no hero, I did my service and moved on with my life, and unfortunately you will have trouble with that for the whole of your life. I hope your masters are kind and feed you regularly, you lap puppy.
It will take a significant emotional experience for you to see the sorted life you live. Years down the road when you reminisce, you'll thank me for getting you to think about things you still don't even register in your conscious hack mind today.
Was it that the Senator was a woman, someone who asserted herself with the General that tics you off about the whole thing. Think son, life is to short for you to waste it with antiquated chauvinistic ideals.
I wrote some eight posts back: You are right, The General was right to call the Senator Ma,am on his first address, but after she corrected him he didn't do it again, did he. If the Senator was out of line, out of order, or the General out ranked the Senator he would have continued with his Ma,am address.
Now all this over your inability to understand who out ranks who. Regaudless of how you may feel about your masters, read what I offered you six posts back who out ranks the General: Article 88 - Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct. To help you understand who out ranks who there it is.
lol FRN
my but u are a fool, and u keep digging yourself a bigger hole!
sad, strange, little man.
This is to funny!!!
Barbera Boxer thinks she earned the right to be called senator because she worked hard to get where she is at.
Give me a break, this democrat is trully screwed up.
The state of california is broke and issuing IOU's to its debtors and the states credit rating is the worst in the country.
She has only earned the right to be called a loser!!
I will bet she is buddy's with Harry Reid!
loosecannon:
The general didn't call her ma'am again because he is a professional. She should be grateful for his service, as he is protecting her.
You are all over the place here. Joe has you pegged.
FAIREY:
Most of America is grateful for our military as am I, we support them 100 percent. As a professional even when we don't agree with those appointed above us we follow all lawful orders.
Do we sometimes think that we would do something differently if we had the command or choices to make; sure we all look at things in different shades of gray. What amuses me in this thread is how dark a shade of gray some people see this.
I never said I liked the tone of the Senators voice or the extent to which she explained her response for wanting to be addressed as Senator. I said it was within her right to have the General address her as she saw fit "Senator".
Ask yourself; have you ever corrected a junior grade soldier or airman on how you wanted to be address. Have you ever heard anyone correct a lower ranking person in the military to address them as such? Well, I have and not just once but many times.
Moreover, in the early 90's policy was reasserted in the Air Force of proper protocol and how senor ranking personal could call juniors by their first name without rank but not the other way round. A junior ranking person was directed only to use rank. When addressing their senor ranking personal.
Now, back to the points:
1. Does the Senator out rank the General?
2. Can the ranking person demand they be addressed by their title?
If you can honestly answer these questions with a "NO" I will admit I was wrong.
loose:
The senator holds a higher title than any military member, as do members of the House. But they are not in the chain of command. The general's form of address was appropriate for someone of higher rank in the chain of command, so is not a demeaning form. That the senator took it as such shows a lack of knowledge about the military, and her public dressing down of the general showed a lack of grace and respect.
You are 100% correct in your two questions, as far as they go, but the senator was wrong in the way she addressed the situation.
Go away gunslinger.
I agree