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Wednesday, Dec. 30, 2009 | 2 a.m.
Bt the numbers
- 312,000: Visitors in 2008
- 315,000: Expected visitors in 2009
- 98.6%: Occupancy in 2008
- 96%*: Expected occupancy in 2009
- *8,000: Approximate increase in room count from 2008
- $199.5 million: Economic impact in 2008
- $183.4 million: Expected economic impact in 2009
Sun Coverage
New Year’s Eve couldn’t come soon enough for Strip hotels.
After taking a yearlong beating, offering rooms at prices that haven’t been as cheap for a decade, some Strip hotels are sold out for New Year’s Eve weekend at relatively jacked-up prices.
The operative word: Relatively.
In a testament to how the Strip is still being bludgeoned by the recession, room rates being charged by hotels this weekend would have been considered a decent price for an average weeknight just a few years ago.
According to the travel and ticketing Web site VEGAS.com, the average price for a New Year’s Eve room in Las Vegas this week is $184 — up a meager $10 from a year ago but still far below the $281 paid by revelers in 2006. (VEGAS.com is a sister company of the Las Vegas Sun.)
The Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority is projecting about 315,000 visitors for the holiday weekend, up an imperceptible 1 percent. The bump might be attributable to the fact that this year, New Year’s Day creates a three-day weekend.
"In the past, New Year’s Eve landing on a weekend has shown to be helpful. If it lands on a Friday or even a Thursday, people will stay the whole weekend," authority spokesman Jeremy Handel said.
But with the addition of 8,000 rooms this year, occupancy will actually dip to 96 percent from 98.6 percent last year, Handel said.
This weekend is one of the three busiest of the year, along with Chinese New Year and the Super Bowl.
Three of MGM Mirage’s Strip properties — Bellagio, Vdara and the Mirage — are sold out for New Year’s Eve.
MGM Mirage spokeswoman Yvette Monet said the company saw guests booking for New Year’s Eve much further in advance than last year, possibly a result of the holiday landing on a weekend.
Elsewhere, last-minute prices range from $225 at Circus Circus, with a two-night minimum stay required, to $470 at MGM Grand.
Harrah’s Entertainment has sold out at five of its eight Las Vegas properties — Caesars Palace, Rio, Flamingo, Paris and Harrah’s.
Harrah’s spokeswoman Jacqueline Peterson said room rates at the company’s properties are up slightly from last year, but the percentage varies by hotel. Occupancy at Harrah’s properties is expected to be about the same as last year, Peterson said.
Other popular Las Vegas hotels are boasting room rates such as $699 at Palazzo, $399 at Venetian, $499 at the Palms and $519 at Hard Rock with a two-night minimum stay required.
Vegas.com Vice President of Marketing Dan Hippler said the travel booking site has seen a slight uptick in the average length of stay this year — 3.3 nights compared to 3.2 nights in 2008. Vegas.com still has rooms for sale at about 30 hotels around Las Vegas for Dec. 30 to Jan. 1, which covers the two-night minimum most hotels are requiring.
Las Vegas' "trick" is to advertise the cheap rooms only during the week when the city is empty, anyways. Holidays , weekendsd, special events, counted into measure, Las Vegas is a quite expensive place to go on vacation. Gambling expenses not included. Buffets go up in price on Friday night and Saturday night, knowing that more people in town need to eat and the casinos make them pay for it.
I am sick of this rip-off. I don't agree that I will have to pay double or even more than that , JUST BECAUSE IT'S FRIDAY OR SATURDAY, while I get a fair deal on a Tuesday night.
Many out-of-towners have realized this phenomenon and acted accordingly. They leave town on a Friday morning when the party crowd from California and other cities arrives. Some others pay the Friday night but check out on Saturday noon, just to -re-check-in again on Sunday, thus, saving 1 expensive night. Which makes absolute sense to me.
Some casinos have noticed that, as well. As a result, some of these greedy companies decided to call the night from Thu to Fri as the beginning of the weekend already and slightly raised the rates already. Smart move? I think not. It shows me that the city has become pretty tight. But the tighter the city becomes, the tigher I become myself. Whether they like it, or not. A few example to illustrate very effective methods of tighening up:
a) gamble less, sit more hours at the poolside
c) use more 2-for-1 coupons for the buffets, stay away from full-pay dining facilities
d) play more match play coupons but refraim from gambling without additional incentive
e) go to the movies during the bargain hours, and not during the evening showtimes
f) cut down on tipping, which could save quite a lot, example
f1) no more tipping of the taxi bellman
f2) short tipping of the cocktail waitress
f3) minimum tip in the restaurant, 15 per cent, and not 20 per cent, and only on the net, not gross total
f4) at poker, don't tip if the pot contains not at least 50 dollars
f5) no more tipping of slot jackpots being paid by attendant
f6) live gaming: black jack or not, why tipping as long as you're not winning heavily?
f7) At the Starbucks or McDonald's counters, there's no reason to drop the change into the bucket. I don't tip on small counter orders!!!
Summary: I am not saying you should stiff everybody that's delivering a service to you. However, the city has to realize that once it starts this "tightening-war" on everything, then the tourists will also start tightening up accordingly. The city will never be what it used to be.
From Switzerland
And here's this, as a little bonus-extra-info:
NOT ALL TOURISTS ARE UNAWARE of the total unfair resort amenity fee policy that some hotels have implemented into their rate-setting.
Station Casinos is charging almost hidden extra fees, on top of all taxes and surcharges. These fees can make up to quite some extra amount being added to your bill. Whereas on the big signs on the roads you see room rates as low as 39.99 usd pls tax, the real rate in this particular example is close to 60 dollars!!!
This is just to inform the companies following such policies:
Not all hotels have such nasty ways in their arsenal to take out their patrons. Fortunately. And I will definetely not stay and therefore refuse to gamble at properties that charge resort fees.
This applies in particular to Station Casinos. The company is close to bankruptcy and matter-of-factly, doesn't deserve any better. Station needs to change such unfair policies and also set up more loose machines at the casino. This might bring back some of the loyal patrons that decided to go and play elswehere since it happened.
From Switzerland
Here is a tip.. STOP GAMBLING. No one wins except the corporations. and for ALL Vegas casino workers-- GET OUT while you can it's only going to get worse. Learn a new profession--QUICK! This year.. No Bonuses for dealers etc., No Holiday Party for employees, No more company matching funds for 401K. VEGAS SUCKS!
i can tell casino going to shoot themself in the foot. my prediction people will arrive new year eve and leave at check out time new year.
To: Lisa and BorisR
If you have a Very bad taste of Vegas and a cheap wallet BorisR these fine hard working people here work for tips.Then don't come at all..... go some place else...... Lisa more then half of the corporation world has stopped 401k's not just little old Vegas
Thank you
Emvance
LAS VEGAS
I'm stayin' at home this year. Payin' off the last off my credit cards and startin' the New Year debt free. That's the best present I can give myself!
Emvance, thanks for your great comments. I was hoping to hear the first angry Las Vegas citizen raise his hand and point his finger at me. Very glad it happened so quickly.
Here's this comment from my side, just to make you understand that the rest of the world besides Vegas does have some "normal thinking" people with common sense, too:
If Vegas is cutting on every possible corner and still trying to get the customers in town, then it has to work for it. And most importantly, it must change its arrogant attitude that came in with the super boom years between 1995 and 2006.
It's time to change that attitude and care more about the tourists.
To make something clear: I come to Vegas for gambling. I usually carry between 3,000 and 5,000 usd in cash plus equivalent amount in reserve. I am willing to take that money at risk, but I expext a decent chance and in order to challenge my luck I am prepared to lose, but I am trying to win. I don't come to Vegas to fire up my money like an idiot. And if the city is welcoming with by tightening up on every single corner, then I am tigthening up myself. Why do the employees of the service industry let it out on the customer if they're not getting the tips expected? Let them blame on the company for not paying them a decent wage!!! IN every other normal business the company pays a wage to the workers that work for the company. Why should it be any different in Las Vegas? Who gives the right to the corporations to keep its staff underpaid , hence, making them depending on tips????
Did I ever tell you that I like to play poker at the locals places? Not only that I prefer playing against tough opponents, I give a lot of respect to the players playing on a daily basis, trying to make a (grinding) living playing 1-2 nl hold'em, but I also like to see how tight some of these locals play so tight and try to get the best possible edge by simply waiting for a mistake or cry "show-one-show-all", whenever somebody's flashing a card to a friend, that I really enjoy putting my money at risk against these players. However, when I see how picky some of these players order up their 2 or sometimes even 3 different drinks from the cocktail waitress, and then just tip 1 dollar to her, then I think nobody should blame on the tourists solely for tightening up. coffee plus 2 bottles of water, 1 dollar tip, it's simply ridiculous, but seen so often, believe me.
I cannot, and don't want to change your tipping attitude, emvance, but I can guarantee you that you will not convince me to change my attitute as long as Vegas keeps getting tighter and tither and tries to suck out money for all kinds of services not wanted and still expects me to throw out my money for tips just like I'm some other John. Maybe there are some rich East Coast gamblers coming to Vegas to make up for it. Which I doubt, actually.
From Switzerland
hey chenso - little too mooch on the caps dont u think - station casinos are wrip offs - he is correct about the fees - happened to me - but i caught it before leaving - i was supose to get 3 free nights and casino rate the other 2 - when i left my hose _to be named nameless - he us useless - charged me full price - he was off the day i checked out - it took me 2 months to get the money refunded.
my brother was charged all 5 nights full price and finally got some refund.
they always want your charge card - then charge it to the max.
my parents were charged each for 2 nights - ok to sleep in the same room?
What I suggest is this - go the the mall and put 50 bucks on a visa card and give that - when they go to run it after you have left and already home - ha ha ha to them - they will only get the 50 bucks.
Should have tried that before they charged me all those fees..
NOW I STAY DOWNTOWN
chenso, thanks for your contribution. I was actually having fun reading it. I hope you tip 30 per cent in the restaurant to make other people happy. There's a little problem about it, though: You will miss these additional 10-15 per cent in your wallet some day, probably.
I don't have to explain to you anything. It's just the way it is. And matter of fact is, America is close to bankrupt. Probably one of the reason for this is oversized lifestyles, too big credit lines, 3 cars instead of just 1 car, and 5 big size tv's in your home, which is not even yours. But you're probably a great tipper. Makes it looks nice, but in fact, it's not.
Quod erad demonstrandum, my friend. Keep this in mind: These greedy Fertitta brothers who run the Stations Casinos Group, they would appreciate if you would stand in front of their casinos waving with big tags saying .."Please tip double today, we're in a financial crisis", as it would help the employees make a better living, so the Fertittas would not have any bad feelings paying only minimum wage to their staff while collecting millions for themselfs in a bankrupt business. It takes a lot to be so reckless and at the same time expect the cusomers to make up for it. But that's not me. You do what you want.
I gotta go now, must care for my business.
Chenso
I do not believe Mr.Boris was actually trying to cut the service people from getting their tips
I do believe that he was trying to state that the greedy casino corperations have jacked up the rates and other prices such as food and have tacked on charges, to advertised cheeper rooms, for services and amnities that would normaly be part of the room rates.Boris is pointing out that the casinos are deceptivly drawing visitors here and zinging them once they arriveknowing they cant cancel now that they are here.By the casino's doing this it blows the visitors budget right off the bat.For a way to compensate for the gaugung and trickery at the hotel counter you must now spend less on the tipping and and gamming.
I have read many many comments that Boris has made on these comment pages and all he wants to do is expose the Casino corperations for what they are.The casino corperations are finding ways to suck up all the disposable income a tourist has for their own pockets and they do not care about the employee making tips because they do not get the tip money for themselves.When the worker gets shorted on a tip or tips they develop an attitude which I do not blame them and service across the board goes down.This problem starts at the top and trickles down.Meaning the greedy goofballs/execs are at fault.
Corperations and their penny pinching acountants have destroyed what was and is a coustomer service and hospitality city.
Chenso you really need to take off you blinders and look at the big picture.
To summerize it for you the Big execs do not care wether the waiter or waitress gets a tip or makes a respectable income all they care about is their big saleries so they protect themselves first.This attitude from the casino corps. have effcted the whole city including myself because I work for a company who depends on the employees of this town to make money and trust me their are not enough execs. in this town to spend their money at my establishment to keep it going.I reiterate the Big Casino Execs are the blame and will serverely damage Vegas if they do not change their ways.
BorisR is a cheapskate and a stiff!!
rodtig, I guess you just don't get it.
It's all about supply and demand. When the economy is booming visitors will pay the higher rates, and they an afford it too, because there is a lot of wealth out there. Tipped employeees know the system works well when prices are high and folks can pay, because tips are good too.
The hotels have had to lower their rates to accomdate the lower spending patterns of the recession, but the money is still there actually.
I don't know perhaps you're not local so you are unable to see the supply and demand mechanisms and how higher room rates drive our Vegas economy. I guess you don't care about the casino's stock prices either, which is another subject I suppose but one that's tied to the soft room rates as well.
Boris
Thank you for your comment it really to me brought out where you spend much of your money and it also said you have had to change your ways in your spending here in Las Vegas.It is ashame that when you are playing you feel you have to be careful on your tipping due to the extra money on hotel amnities and food you have to spend.I do understand your point.I want you to know that my feelings are exactly like yours.
All the hidden fees are causing us to feel this way and the worker is suffering because of it.
Then it trickles back because the worker gets an attitude and stressed because their not making enough money to cover their bills.
I reiterate that the Big casino Execs. do not care wether or not they employee gets a tip all they care about is their check.
What they fail to realize giving a true value you for your dollar and cutting out the gouging on food and rooms creates more money spent and happy employees,which in turn creates more volumn of guests and more spending.
Yes their profit margin is not as high but what good is a higher profit margin when the rooms are empty.
We are on a Holiday weekend and lets see what the occupancy is next weekend and what percentage they are at next week.
With this economy the way it is right now people are looking to have a great time for a cheeper price and really the casinos have not done that they have just changed the way they charge.
When they advertise a room rate the tact on resort fees surcharges and other charges they are decieving the guest and they come thinking 109.00 a night but end up at 159.00 a night is ridiculas and the guest gets a bad taste in their mouth and may not return to Vegas.
Guests are down and will continue to stay down until the Casino Execs.change their ways and find some accountants that understand marketing,customr service and numbers also.
Borris R. and the rest of the gray hairs still thing that a 5er is a good tip. Vegas is not driven by 100$ a night budget folks like them. Go ahead and wiiiiine Borris. Complain about the cost of everything. You should have saved more money and not counted on Social Security for your gambling jones. If I was to bet, I would say you are a B.O. man that lover good old Harry also. Just move away DB.
The basic problem with Las Vegas is the centralized control of the Strip properties by the mega corporations. This has stiffled competition the same way that government-run health care will.
mikegino, stifled has only one f.
The corporations are the best thing that ever happened to gaming. For one thing, corporations attract bright young college-eduacted folks who can write and spell! They can also think and innovate! Just like today it takes re-thinking our stupid health care system.
To add my two cents worth...I earn enough money to afford to go to the nicer restaurants, shows, stores in town, however, I typically use coupons and look for deals to help stretch my money. I use the KSHP radio station (AM1400)coupons which are a great deal. We recently went to Maggiano's (which was really good!) and had a great dinner for two and it only cost me $25.00 including a 20% tip. I don't mind spending money, but I do like to feel like it's a "reasonable" expense. Now, going to the new Asian restaurant in City Center that is $500.00 per person would not be a place I'd try!!!
Reasonable post doc.
Personally I am looking forward to the return of those who can pop $500/head for dinner! That kind of spending is good for Vegas. That I can't afford it bothers me not. In fact following the Nellis airshow I took the family to dinner at the California's coffee shop. The $7.95 prime rib was pretty decent!
As to tipping. The practice has gotten way out of hand in my opinion. It has transferred wage decisions from the employer (who is in a position to evaluate the employee over a long peroid) to the guest (who only sees the employee for a few minutes). I want the employee-employer negotiations to stay right there, and not involve me. Pay the employee what the employer negotiates and let me pay what the employer needs to charge for my food or room, or whatever.
The only way to deal with this from a guest standpoint is to NOT TIP. That will force the employers to deal with their employees and raise wages. I can't see any other solution.
Whats happened now is that waiters (whose only job it is to carry food to the guest) make exhorbitant salaries from the tips they get.
Take for example, waiters at buffets. They bring you a beverage and take away the plates, and EXPECT a tip. This is insanity. I , for one, NEVER tip the waiter at a buffet. I get my OWN food, and would be happy to get my own beverages too.
Restaurants have all raised their prices in the past year, and its getting prohibitive to go out to eat now. Tipping just adds insult to injury, and I am happy to see other people rebelling against it too.
Europe does just fine without tipping, and we should do the same here. Force change here by stopping the tipping treadmill !!!
I got 86'd from a casino a month ago because I didn't play fast enough. Stations has programs that watch you like a cat with a mouse. Funny thing is that I play the max, and thought I was being a good boy. Security got me booted.
Sad thing is that I'm a decent tipper at the bar, where I play. Some days in the afternoon, I'm the only customer, and the bartender really appreciated the tips. I gave her daughter a Nintendo Wii for Christmas. So now I'm off to another of the 66 (last I counted) casinos in this town. 4 are within 3 miles of my house.
Their slots today are squeezed so tight, it is just a case of having 4 beers, losing on the machines, and tipping the B Tender. How much does a beer cost a casino? Anybody know? Screw them all. But I do feel bad for the employees. They are getting squeezed big time.
Speaking of the health care system, if MGM Mirage dumps $400m a year on health care (no wonder they hate soft room rates), or about $8000/employee, something is wrong when the family care physician nets $22 for an annual employee wellness exam. No wonder they don't examine the patient. Pretty stupid system if one asks me.
25600, that's so typical, people like you who can't see past their own pocketbook. I guess you don't realize that well-tipped employees help drive a robust economy by spending their well-earned tips. See, depending on what your line of work is (or was if retired) odds are good you are on the receiving end of that spending somewhere down the line.
Just like folks who don't want to change our health care system because they already have low cost benefits. What thinkers like that are never able to understand is that a health care system that works better will be very good for the economy, and a well-functioning economy is better for everybody.
For the person who posted that the corperations are the best thing that happened to the strip,must live in a world of their own.These people dont have a clue!Boris has posted many comments in the past and has hit the nail many many times!Vegas is dieing,and anyone who has lived here longer than 20 years are pulling up stakes,and leaveing!As for the tipping part,THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THE COMPLAINING ARE THE VERY SAME ONES THAT ARE DOING THE STIFFING!PEOPLE IN THE SERVICE INDUSTRY ARE BY FAR THE WORST TIPPERS!I FOR ONE,IF YOU HAPPEN TO WEAR YOUR BADGE WHERE YOU WORK AND STIFF ME,YOU CAN COUNT ON ME COMEING TO WHERE YOU WORK,AND RUN YOU DOWN!AND THEN I MAKE IT VERY AWHERE WHY I AM DOING WHAT I AM!TURN ABOUT IS FAR PLAY,AND I PLAY TO RUN YOU DOWN!!!
I could get waay involved in this argument, however Boris and rodtig said it all! as far as emvance and chenso582 are concerned, they probably are corporate casino voices implanted here to usurp the voices of dissent on these discussion rooms..
BDover, Your major domestics (Bud, Miller Lite, Coors Lite) are about 70 cents a bottle, wholesale. Imports run about 20-30 cents more. Trust me, if you are only drinking 4, the casino is making money the second you put your money in the machine.
The way to save $$ is to tip 2% even when you get great service.
Then you will have much more $$ to throw away at casinos
Atta Boy Swiss Boris
rumrunner, that was me who posted the corporations are the best thing that ever happened to Vegas.
You know what, it's hardly worth a response. Your perspective that corporations don't have a clue is just so cliche. I guess you don't appreciate or want the amenities and ambiance that modern casino megaresorts offer. Megaresorts just aren't possible without corporate financing and management. The old Vegas simply coudn't pull it off.
Ok boys and girls, time to climb out of your mamma's basement and get a job. See you at the 7 11.
cribster,it shows you didnt live here dureing the hayday of what vegas was all about!Old vegas was hands down alot better than it is now!Look at the state of our country and you will have your answer to what the big corperations care about?IT'S ALL ABOUT"THEIR"BOTTOM LINE!BELEIVE YOU ME,VEGAS IS DIEING MORE AND MORE EVERYDAY,AND THATS THANKS TO THESE SO CALLED MASTERS OF THE STRIP!THEY DUG THERE HOLE,NOW THEY CAN DIG THEMSELVES OUT!!!
If half of you don't like Vegas don't go. If you don't want to tip don't eat out. I myself will do both and will be coming from the East coast. There's no place like Vegas so this time I'll make sure to tip heavy, drink a lot, gamble crazy and sleep little. Props to Vegas and those who live there - see you soon.
These gaming corporations just don't get it. The customer is fed up being gouged and at first opportunity, hotels in Las Vegas are pushing room rates as high as they can get away with. What they don't realize is people will come to Las Vegas for New Years, but leave with a bitter pill in their collective mouths, return home, rant to friends and relatives about being gouged and thus the bad publicity continues.
As far as forcing gaming companies to pay better wages to employees, that ain't gonna happen. Corporate America is of the premise that if you don't like the meager wages they are paying you, leave and ten suckers will be more than happy to work for poverty level wages, just for the opportunity of working. Meanwhile, the execs will keep pushing for huge increases in bonuses for themselves.
Cutting back on tipping is not a good strategy - it's rife with bad karma. Indiscriminate tipping is all part of the fun of throwing money around and it never amounts to much. Last weekend up in Wendover, a craps player tossed a $100 chip to the shooter after a rediculously long roll. This may have been more of a commission than a tip, but it was an expansive gesture.
herge :
Bring fifty thousand of your friends who think just like you with you while your at it! we're waiting for you!!
Tip or no tip, that is the question. I myself like to drink while sitting at a machine. I can sit at the bar, and pay anywhere from $2.00 to $3.50 for each drink, while I play the poker machine, or I can tip that young lady that brings free drinks around a buck or 2. Now if I pay at the bar, it goes to the casino. If I tip the young lady, it goes in her pocket. I have found, that the young lady, gives much better service, by always making sure that your drink is full. So if people don't mind, when I go to LV, I'll stick with the tiping. I seem to have much more fun for my buck.
Pappy
I find it's easier to book a room with five or six friends in tow for any major event here. Just make sure there's more than one bed in the room, plenty of furniture to crash out on and bring your own booze in your luggage. You get a nice room while splitting the cost with your compadres. I know Vegas has always jacked up the prices of the rooms on the LV Strip during any major holiday, like NYE. It's normal, but, there are ways around it, ya know. ;-D
rumrunner, the old Vegas was just that...old and out-dated. And pretty much a bunch of non-college educated morons running the joints. Idiots who never engaged in creative thinking. They didn't have to...they had a monopoly. Steven Wynn and junk bond financing changed the game.
what Las Vegas needs now is the renovation.
started with MGM's CC and we need other casino operators to chip in their bets like Wynn's new entertainment property on Encore.
eventually, hotels without any events will go out of bankruptcy. charging $20/ night with little service won't cut the deal anymore.
with higher convention activities (according to Las Vegas Sands' SA) in 2010, I would love to this going aggressively.
Why do people think that yield management only exists in Vegas? Do you same people also complain to the airlines that adjust rates based on current availability and competitor's rates? Room rates in Las Vegas are still considerably less expensive than that of other vacation destinations. Look at rates in San Diego, San Francisco, Chicago, New York and Orlando. Then also look at the taxes associated with the stay as well as other fees such as parking. Vegas is still a less expensive destination when considering room rates.
As far as tipping goes, those that feel there should be no tipping and the corporations should increase the pay to compensate for loss tips; where do you think those increases are going to be covered? To raise the rate of pay for the staff they are going to pass the increase directly to the customer.
People should try to learn something about how an industry works before spewing nonsense.
Big_john :
I will tell you what a say every time someone like you tries to justify high room rent in Vegas Hotels. The other destinations you are referring to DON'T have gambling. The amount of money that the hotels make on gambling more than pays for the rooms, so in Vegas they don't have to charge high rates. This is what makes Vegas, Atlantic City, and other GAMBLING destinations different..
Environprotector - I only have 227 friends on my facebook but its a start!!
Do you know what the hold percentage is for cash spent on room rent (first time I have heard it referred to as rent), 100%. Let's compare that to the expected hold percentage of table games 18% - 22% and slot hold of 5% - 7%. Why in the world would a hotel not yield their rooms to the highest point possible? The sawdust joint days are long gone. It is time to embrace the new and improved hotel/casino management philosophy and either except that Vegas has grown to become an International destination or go enjoy AC which has not learned to evolve and is dying more and more everyday.
By Big John...with lower room reservations overall and lower revenues, the paying public is apparently not accepting your theory of better resort management.
Dave you are missing the point. First of all, room reservations (aka occupancy) is only slightly down as the city is still in the 93% - 97% rate. And yes revenues are down, hence the management to yield lower prices to occupy rooms. It has been the opinion of some in here that all of Vegas should somehow drastically slash all room rates and offer $29 rates and hope the casino makes up for it. My argument is that yield management works and hotels have a duty to charge the highest price they can to occupy their product. The days of $19 rooms and $.99 buffets do not make economical sense. This is basic economic philosophy..
Let's hope that 2010 is a great year and the begining. Looks like New Years Eve is looking good. Hopefully this will be the beginning of the turnaround.
wwunlv :
Don't hold your breath! New Years Eve is New Years Eve, everything after that is reality, and reality ain't so pretty these days...
Big_John has got it right. And I'm sure he agrees that good yield in the casino resort business means good yield for those who live the Vegas economy. Actually a healthy Vegas gaming industry sends out positive repercussions across other economies than just the local ones. Nowadays room rates are just as important a driver of revenue as are the games. Just ask Phil Ruffin who has 3000 of them to rent by the night, and no mortgage.
Big_john :
Basic economic philosophy has nothing to do with the gambling business marketing strategy formula of ancillary values to maximize the tourist dollar expenditure in the casino. I'm not saying what you are advocating is bunk, I'm just saying that the time tested formula of value worked in Las Vegas for the first fifty years and beyond until only recently. The properties were paid for, and all revenue was pure profit. They were not leveraged to the hilt as the current Wall St. condition dictates (excepting Steve Wynn), and they made more than enough money in the casino to be satisfied. Corporate greed, and bottom line philosophy have NO place in gambling destinations. If they changed their current strategy, as they have partially with lower room rate to attract tourists, and go all the way with cheap food, loose slots, and generous comps, the tourists would flock back, especially in this crappy economy.
I lived in the Orlando area right before Disney World arrived. I saw how hotels were quickly over-built and many went bust. However, over the last twenty years or so, the same area has added more theme parks, resorts, hotels, restaurants, etc. and absorbed all the initial over-built hotels as well. Now both low end and high end resorts coexist and the consumer gets a choice. In Las Vegas it appears that the newer resorts were build primarily for the wealthy tourists and the "average Joe" will be forced to go to the "second tier" resorts that are more affordable. Just like society in general, the rich and not so rich end up on different sides of the track.
Hey protector, the properties were not all paid for and to suggest all revenue was pure profit is preposterous. By that rationale there was no operating cost associated with the hotels. Many of the hotels during those first fifty years were from loans backed by pension funds and private investors. What has changed is the source of the funding and certainly the amount. And I still contend that with city wide occupancy in the mid 90% the tourists still flock here. As in many other industries around the country, Vegas is seeing the consumer spend less than they did prior to the downturn. Sure lower rates and meals will bring in a few more cost conscientious travelers, but I do not believe these new customers would come close to closing the gap created by lowering room rates and other revenue sources as you have suggested.
I am a Casino worker and by reading all of these comments I only pray that everyone that posted a comment on this blog stay far away from Las egas as possible!! Please do not come here anymore this town is not for you!!!
JUST WANT ALL YOU OUT THERE TO KNOW THAT THE ONLY REASON WHY THEY REMOVED MY COMMENT FROM THIS PAGE IS BECAUSE I'M SO RIGHT ABOUT WHAT I SAID. ALL YOU GRAY HAIRED MOOCHEY OLD FOLK STAY HOME! YOUR WORTHLESS AND NEVER TIP AND ALL YOU DO IS COMPLAIN ABOUT EVERYTHING. I FEEL BAD FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE THAT WORK IN THE HOTELS AND MAKE A LIVING BY PEOPLE TIPPING. EVERYONE ALSO WANTS TO BLAME THAT THE CASIO'S ARE IN TROUBLE BECAUSE OF ALL THE EXE'S THAT ARE MAKING BIG BUCKS AND THEIR THE ONE'S CREATING THE PROBLEMS FOR THE CASINO'S. NOT TRUE, HAS ANY OF U OLD FOLKS THAT COMPLAIN AT THE BUFFET LINES LIKE BORAT OVER $2 DOLLARS OFF SEEN THE NEWS, WE HAD A HOUSING BUBBLE BURST AND THEREFORE THE ECONOMY AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS IN THE TOLIET RIGHT NOW. IF YOU DONT WANNA SPEND ANY MONEY AND YOU CANT AFFORD A HOTEL ROOM, AND YOU DONT WANNA TIP THE PEOPLE IN THE CASINOS WHEN THEY DO THINGS FOR YOU. THEN GO RENT A HOTEL AT MOTEL 6, EAT THEIR FREE BREAKFAST, COMPLAIN ABOUT THE COFFEE AND THEN GO HOME!! DONT COME HERE!!
JeniferD : Thats alright honey, you and your girlfriends come on over and fill those rooms 6 or 10 to a room if you have to, We love ya!
Big_john : Show me your source of historic info and we will compare notes, because your history sure differs greatly from my memories and knowledge (been here since '59)
chenso582 : PLEASE ! one Belair (writes in all caps all the time) is enough in these discussion rooms. You are obviously too opinionated and emotional to participate in a constructive discussion.
Most consider me a good tipper (20-25%) on a modest ($30-40) restaurant bill. If All I buy is a coke, the tip can be 100% depending on the cost of the coke ($2.50 Coke, give 'em 5). Same for the very inexpensive breakfasts, etc. However, I have been cutting back, leaving 5 or 6 on a $30 ticket instead of the former 7 or 8 or even 10 I used to leave. Superb service will open up the tip bank from me. I once left a penny because the girl NEVER brought my drink, after asking several times. (she did remember to charge me for it). Haven't been back there since, didn't pay for the drink I never got, told the manager that girl was horrible, hope she got fired! I hope that place goes bankrupt (It's not in L.V.). I self park and don't use the baggage handlers, etc. Just don't want to drop 20 before even getting to the front desk. Use cell phone instead of room phone. Bring walmart drinks in. Resort fees are well hidden in the rates, especially on Vegas .com, at least the I.P. doesn't charge them. (Just have the third guest hang back or the room price doubles). Yes, I spend money, but will not pay 3 or 4 or more times the store price. Never buy a paper at the Casino, it costs more than at a regular store. Oh, and I bring my own car (or rent one) whenever I travel. Cab fares will kill you.
I have read most of the threads and see that there are different opinions. I don't think that all Americans are natural born tippers and all "Non-Americans" are cold non-tippers. I am also not the one that says you should not tip at all, but my money says that you can tip too much and there is too much tipping for things I can only shake my heads. For instance, I have seen a 15 dollar tip in a poker game when a guy sucked out on the river and won a 200 dollar pot. To the people who follow the "15 per cent rule", a 30 dollar tip would be appropriate. I disagree on that but think as long as the player who won the pot is happy and the dealer is happy , too, then it's ok. I can only add this one here: I don't think that it's making much sense to tip the dealer out of a 12 dollar pot if the player does not really win anything from it. In addition to that, most poker rooms have tables with built-in shuffle machines, speeding up the game and dealing more hands/hour. This will maximize the profit for the house and also give way more tips to the dealer...WHO IN FACT DOES NOT HAVE TO WORK MORE. The machine is doing the shuffle, so the dealer will deal the cards and control the game. Does this work which is usually over after 2 or 3 minutes really deserve a 5 or 10 dollar tip? Disagree on that. Of course all convervative Las Vegas citizen will nodd like a herd of sheep and say.....Yes, of course. But I disagree.
Question two: Is a small bottle of water being handed out by the cocktail waitress "en passant" from "left-over-bottles" on the tray really worth a dollar? The cocktail waitress does purposely adding a few bottles and the poker players oftentimes ask for a bottle of water. Here we go, here's your bottle, sir, and yes, here we go, a buck for you, baby. Thanks:) And the system works. These small bottles of water have no real value, so the player only tips for the service. I disagree that 1 dollar tip for a tiny bottle of water is ok, so I would not order it up. But that's me. Call me whatever you want, I just don't earn so much money over here to be able to pay 1 dollar for 10 oz of water. Obviously, many other people do.
This is an endless discussion, and the parties probably will not find a consensus. I don't care. I follow my policy and I think I will make my way through my next Vegas vacation. I was glad to see so many comments coming in on this thread, and I am sure it will help many people think 2x before they continue their no-brainer tipping attitude.
From Switzerland
environprotector, you seem 100% motivated by your desire to enjoy low room rates, cheap food and other perks, and are completely oblivious to the realities of running a highly financed corporation. When are you going to stop living in the old Vegas and accept that the game has changed forever and will continue to evolve?
I think what this guy brought to town a few years ago is interesting. Six Light group properties in Aria alone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Sass...
tipping a scantily dressed cocktail waitress thats a real thinker--Id be a little more interested on the occupancy rates January 8-9 than New Years in VEGAS
Im rather amused as well that many who proclaim to be in the casino industry during these times have told people to STAY AWAY dont worry the welfare lines are pretty short now (we're in a recovery)
It cost big bucks to stay at a nice place. I am looking into a Hawaii vaca and it is going to cost me 150 a night at least. Oh yeah, they don't have and 99 cent buffets there either.
Go on a vacation to elko if you want 29.99 a night.
As I see it,, Las Vegas has only taken what people are willing to pay and thats with anything that is bought and sold.. Im sure you have heard of economics,, and thats what makes the world go round..I believe old time Vegas was better as rooms and food and shows were alot more reasonable or at best a bargain.. As for tipping,, I tip for the service I get or the service I would like to have as I dont give a ratsass if I was served 2 oz.s of water in a cup I will tip no matter what,, as I might want a beer later and expect that I get what I order as if the server already knows anything that I am a tipper and thats what she is improving her wage with.. If your a tightwad and dont tip then dont complain about the service you were given or will be getting...Especially if you freqeunt the same establishments regularly.. What Im trying to say is you get what you pay for and when you expect alot for nothing then you should pry the old money clip out of your shoes and throw some change down.. The ones posting about how sorry of a tipper they seem to be are more than likely people that take anything that is not bolted down where they are eating,, staying,, gambling and use that stuff at home to impress thier friends that are the same way... What goes round,, comes around and then some...
By the way I have lived here all my life and saw this build,, build,, build till all the bare land here is gone.. Well almost all of the land anyways and with all things that are good ,, expect the bad to be along at some point... For every person that hates this town you can pack up and go,, and take the rest of the wannabees with you.. Im saying that if its that bad here why did you come in the first place.. Maybe it was that this was the place to be and now its not.. So go on and go home as I for one wont miss your complaining asses one bit... Just remember to send a postcard of where your at so I dont go there and here the complaining all over again....
I'm under the impression that tip isn't mandatory. I tip heavily for good service and I tip the minimum 15% if service wasn't good. I don't think tip collectors should have to get naked, turn somersaults or have sex with customers to get good tips, but I can tell you that the personal touch and a great smile go a long, long way in this economy. But I do understand...there is just no pleasing everyone and yes, some people are just cheap @$$e$ at which point there is nothing you can do.
I am under the impression that tipping is not mandatory, while at the same time I am under the impression that tipping is mandatory.
Whether you like to hear this, or not, I will let you know anyways:
Macau has taken over the lead in casino operations and is definetely more successful than Las Vegas, as per Dec 2009. It is likely that this will be like that in future, as well. Macau won the race, and that's why Sands, MGM Mirage and Wynn already have their operations in the Far East.
It is to emphasize that in Macau, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO TIPPING. That is, no tipping to the cab driver, no tipping to the room maid, no tipping at the poker table. No tipping to nobody, as the Orientals take it as an insult if somebody is tipping them. The companies pay a paycheck for the work the employees give to their company. And the system works.
I am not saying that this is the perfect system, but it is to tell all the people critizing my point-of-view and show them that the world is not about Las Vegas, and Vegas is not the center of all ideas and all wisdom.
To me, this tipping system reminds me of the middle age or of some post-war efforts to keep the company at a low payroll and still have enough workers do the blood job for the fat cats.
From the CEO's point of view, the tipping system is wonderful. Where in the world can they get employees working for them almost for free? Only in the service industry, right? In the U.S. , in particular.
I see it like this: A tip should be a little extra, a bonus for the employee, for the cocktail waitress, for the poker dealer, and for everybody else who works in the service industry. But it should not be the main source of income! As if this happens, the employee gets totally depending on the tips and if he/she's not being tipped, he/she's getting mad with the customer.
In Italy, or Switzerland, or France, or Germany, or England.... for instance, or Macau, Hong-Kong, service (tip) is already included in the total tab. The guest is welcomed, but not enforced, to tip a little extra, but definetely no 15 or 20 per cent! I am sure the ones who tip generously 20 per cent, will simply add 20 per cent on the total number, therefore also tipping on the tax amount being already added on the bill. Be my guest to do so. lol.
I would appreciate if your congress would take this into one of his next sessions for discussion as we are in the 21st century and not in the middle age. All workers in the service industry deserve a good and fair pay-check, and this needs to be guaranteed by the company, and not be depending on the customer's will and decision. If it says....32.95 for a 14 oz NY cut filet, then the total should be 32.95. All taxes and all tips included. But it's not like that. 32.95 in America means how much? 40? Think it through before you start critizing other people. Maybe there's some truth in what I am saying.
And a Happy New Year to you all and your families:)
Greetings from Switzerland
BorisR, you're just a stiff, that's all there is to it! To guess, it's just part of your nature, your country's customs aside.
As Big_John correctly points out, if the casino industry attempted to pick up the tab for tips/tokes they would be forced to pass along the additional expense to the customer in increased pricing. Fact is, compensating the help is part of the cost of the experience and if you stiff us you get less service than someone who doesn't. It's only fair. Tips may be included in Switzerland but in the USA they are not...in most situations.
I have a friend who drives a $100,000 Mercedes, lives in a 3,000 S.F. very nice house. When we go to lunch, and he pays, The tab may be anywhere between $20 and $30. He leaves a 2 dollar tip. I drive a $13,000 heavily discounted and rebated Pontiac and live in a 1200 s.f. house. If I'm picking up the tab on the above lunch check, I think a $5.00 tip is fair. A buck or 2 extra if service was outstanding. When he buys, I often sneak a couple bucks under my plate or hand it off to the waitress when he's not looking. Some people are just plain CHEAP! There's a restaurant we often frequent (I mean more than once a week sometimes). That extra couple bucks at tip time has moved us to the front of the line on nights where the wait is long (no long wait these days for anyone), Gotten us free tickets for some events, and mostly, just have most of the staff taking care of our needs (keeping the drinks full), regardless of whether or not we're in their section. It has also caused various comped appetizers, desserts, etc. to show up on our table. So I'd have to say, that extra couple bucks is a good investment.
Hi Bakersfield, please play my table, lol, you are George (dealer jargon for good toker)! Folks like you make the world go round! Tipping well, especially when the service is friendly and good is just good kharma. And as I've already mentioned on this thread, because it IS spending, it actually benefits the economy!
Cribster64
I have always tipped and tipped heavily.What I said earlier in this discussion board is that the casino's amneties are sucking the disposable income up and that goes straight to the corperations not the waiter/waitress or the gamming dealer.The money that goes to the corperate casino operators does not go back into the city of Las Vegas.That money goes towards paying loans that are from all over the world.
During the holiday season rates will naturally go up.
But in non-peak tourist times the casinos need to lower room rates drastically to bring in higher voulumn traffic and will also bring in more dollars/tips to its employees.What is better empty hotel rooms at higher rates or occupied hotel rooms at cosiderably lower rates.Income is income money versus nothing comming in You chose.When the guests are here and they got a great deal on a room they are apted to tip higher.If they get a great meal for a great price they spend more on gambling and tip much more.In return they employee who lives here has more income and spends more around town.The buisness I am in depends on that.The gouging of the tourist hurts across the board and some of the old school Vegas needs to come back.My wife is a dealer and her income depends on guests tipping and if the Hotels and resturants are gouging it does effect the dispossable income in gamming and tipping So look at the overall picture and don't be blinded by the corperate rehtoric
Has anyone been to the M Casino and Resort?
I have been there 2 times ooopppsss!!! 1 time
I was at City Center Aria casino last night.
My wife and I walked in to the Aria Casino and the entrance is outstanding waterfalls to the left a fountain shooting water in all different formations with colored lights changing the color of the water.
I was truely impressed it has a spectacular entrance.
They did a great job you walk through the doors and the hotel lobby has a contemporary twist but soothing elegance.I was impressed thus far.A really nice piece of art hanging over the check in desk.Looked really classey.Made a left turn into the gamming area and walked a few hundred feet into the gamming area and turned to my wife and I asked her does this look familiar to you?
She said yes It looks like the M Casino I responded my thoughts exactly.We continued to look around and I repeated to her I can't believe this looks so much like the M.
I guess it had to do alot with the color scheme but It truley amazed me the similarities do not get me wrong it is a beautiful casino but I really threw me for a loop.I guess I expected something different.
I was looking for its own individual character.
I will say definately highend and huge.My goodness that gamming floor went forever.Dont get me wrong it is a very nice place just suprised and a little disapointed.
MGMM developed several glass/mirrored skinned buildings that you can see anywhere in the country not very apealing from a distant eye and then to walk in and it looks like a replica of the M Resort on first impression just rubbed me wrong and I thought what a waste of 8 billion dollars No individual character. But the corperations know what they are doing.Sorry but You can definately tell that Steve Wynn is the only Corperate exec who knows how to create individuality and I think he slipped with Encore.I guess the theme of City Center will work I hope for Las Vegas's sake but I really question its theme over the long haul when the newness wears off.
And to pay for that monstrosity will be tough but I guess they will have to continue to goug as they have in these rough economic times.I look for MGMM to be selling off some of its other properties to pay for this fiasco.The corperations need to have some competition intead of 2 main operators on the strip.
I look foward to someone digging out Fountainbleau are giving MGMM and Harrahs a run for their money.
Boyd Gamming needs to finish Echelon also and look at their interior design to make sure it has its own character.Circus Circus is rundown but its own character.Treasure Island,Belagio,Wynn,Paris, Planet Hollywood,Ceasars,Mandalau Bay,Venitian,Lexor,Excalibar all have the distinct charcter.Monte Carlo needs an over haul As does MGM Grand,Tropicana,Flamingo,Bally's and The Riviera Sahara and Strat need demolision way to run down.
Rodtig, how do you think the money that goes to corporate casino operators does not go back into the city? Taxes are paid on the revenue generated from everything inside the casino. If the money wasn't going back into the city none of us would be here. Also, as I stated above yield management does set rates lower in non-peak times. Why do you think rates are lower during the week then on weekends? Can you show me one hotel that is empty with high room rates? No hotel is "empty" with the exception of the lower tier properties that struggle to compete with the bigger ones; and those rates are ridiculously low. The corporate rhetoric you refer to is a law that corporations must manage themselves to increase shareholder value. Corporations have a duty to the people that invest in the company, not the person chucking cards.
Never said they were empty hotels I said ( empty rooms!!!) Empty rooms do not bring in dollars and tax dollars.The more rooms occupied means more dollars being spent at resturants,shops,gamming tables.To continue more tips and the worker has more money to spend on their lively hood.Does that make since or are you (Big_John) one of those non reality driven accountants or execs to closed minded to realize that.
Marketing and sales is always butting heads with accountants who are percentage margin driven.
Personally I had the opportunity to take over managment of a company who had several wholesale stores in different cities That supplied retailers in those cities.
In taking over one of those locations as manager I negotiated a deal with a lower salary with a bonus on profit and if my marketing plan did not work I recieved no bonus.The actual salery was consideraby lower than the job I was leaving but if their was a good bottomline profit for the store I would stand to double my income from my previous job.The one thing I asked for was for them to allow me to drop the profit margins and shove volumn.They looked at me as though I was crazy but what did they have to lose.They were on the verge of having to close several loations or down sizing to keep the company afloat.Their lease at my location was up in 18 months and that store was gone and 50 jobs lost.Mind you I presented this concept to my old employer and they laughed.
So I took my idea somehere else. Did it work yes droped the margin 30 percent and put in some hard work and the over all volumn went up 182 percent and the location that I was at went from operating in the red for the past 3 years to in the black and were able to use the additional income to keep other locatons afloat until I was able to go to all the companies locations and train them on how to accomplish this concept and find people willing to workhard.
The company is now a power house in the south and Mid West.
The company I work for here in Las Vegas has the same concept and during a huge recession they have opened 2 new locations this year in other cities have moved one store to a larger location here in Vegas and are opening another here in Vegas and Reno.And moving the other location here in Vegas to a larger location all in the next 3 months.Their concept is and my concept to marketing is Volumn Volumn Volumn and lower margin to give the consumer a greater value for the same or better quality.While our competitors are stedily struggling and closing locations.They maintain higher margins and it is killing them.
The same concept can apply to the Hospitality industry here in Vegas Drop the room rates fill them with bodies and the volumn will increase.More demand for workers to accomodate more guests and it is a huge snowball effect towards a positive effect.
The problem with your stance is that the rooms are not sitting empty. Occupancy rates are still in the mid 90% range according to the LVCVA. And to go a bit further, the reason rates are lower now is due to the change in demand. Yield management works. If the Riviera was sitting at 30% occupancy with $200 rates then I would say they are missing the boat and need to lower rates to drive volume. Resorts with a strong product offering do not need to sell at Hotel 6 rates to drive volume. The volume is there all the while generating a higher yield on the room revenue. Furthermore, I love it when people from other industries and other cities come to Vegas and suggest ways to change the management of what has, is and will work to generate the highest profit. The industry is margin based, I would love to see the reaction from investors if a company declared they were abandoning margin protection so that they could increase occupancy by a point or two and bring less to the bottom line.
Does the Riv still charge that stupid 'electricity surcharge'?
727, The Imperial palace finally dropped their $1.00 per day phone surcharge (Whether you touched the phone or not). Payable at checkout. Couldn't have it added to your check-in tab. The Luxor has a rediculous $18 or so a day "resort fee" which allows you to get the daily paper and access to the gym. Suddenly, those $50 rooms are $70+ after taxes. If I want the daily paper, I can pay the 75c for it, and who needs a gym when the walk to anyplace at these resorts gives you plenty of exercise.
I still think all the casinos should be non-smoking. 80% of the population doesn't smoke. Many of those non-smokers avoid casinos because they reek of cigarettes. This would eventually add to the bottom-line once non-smokers come in.
Big _John
They are gouging with extra charges is what is being said those extra charges Phone Charges newspaper wether you want it or not resort fees jack the rates back up and the extra money to be spent I say once again does not go to the employees as far as tip Over priced food which could be cut also absorbs extra money to be spent.People come to Vegas to ganble not just sleep and eat Lower some of this and create a huge bang for the buck and it will restimulate this local economy a little bit But It is obvious now Big_John you are in bed with the gougers and support their greedy ways Believe me they must change if they dont it is going a lot longer recovery for Vegas than the rest of the country
Right now I could put alot of these casino accountants out of work and put the blue collar worker in Vegas back to work Then Bog_John you would swallow you closed minded ideas in which is not working in Vegas and tuck tail
Enviro,
You state you have been here since 59'. And you want to make the statement that the Casinos of that time period, up until the early 80's weren't financed with money from the Teamster Pension Fund?
rodtig, I am glad to hear you tip. Thank you.
I can say Big_John is the one person here who appears to be truly grounded in the hotel industry. His yield manangement position is spot-on. Imo he is either an executive in the industry or well enough trained in business to be one. His point the whole discussion is that using the principles of yield management, corporate operators are keeping their buildings as best occupied as they can according to the yield formula, and he's right. Listen to an MGM Mirage earnings call and you'll hear much of what John is saying.
Best to all of you in the coming year.
Sounds like someone does not like to leave tips and does not have any respect for his fellow man who work for tips in the many casinos here in Vegas...
For those of you who basically work for tips, GOOD JOB...
mrability - you are very negative!
mrab--After that remark you should just STFU as it seems by your babble of blah,,blah,,blah is only making me believe that the mr really stands for mentally retarded as you force that pooh out of your lips...Maybe you could imagine that dognurse could be a vetenarian... IMO thats all and as I stated earlier in my posts if you dont like vegas then stay away as some of us like it here and wouldnt want anyone that doesnt to be unhappy...By the way there are no more rescue boats going to idiot island to save you anymore.....HAPPY NEW YEARS to all and be safe,, DONT GET DRuNK AND DRIVE..............
Well I HAD reservations at Palace Station for the 4th thru the 8th. I know better to come to Vegas during the major holiday rush, plus who wants to sit in that traffic on the 15. So I try to come during the off-times during the week. After reading the blogs and comments about Casino Resort Fees, I searched the fine print on my reservation and was AMAZED that they were charging me over $20 dollars a day, for phone usage and a newspaper. I have a cell phone with unlimited worldwide calling and a laptop that I use with a broadband usb modem that I can pull up any newspaper in the world and read it for free. This fee is non-negotiable according to the reservation clerk that I talked to to complain (well not complain but to question) the fee. Im not poor, but Im not swimming in benjamins either. I prefer the slower more local casinos, they have a better enjoyable ambiance and the employees and patrons are usually a friendly bunch. I have cancelled my reservation and have booked now at Gold Coast. Their fee was a modest 5 bucks and is only charged if used (or so I was told, well find out later).
Well I looking forward to having a good time, y'all have a Happy Prosperous New Year. Hopefully 2010 will be better then 2009. I think we can ALL AGREE on that.
DrivingDown....
Very good decision. Gold Coast has a little fee, just as the Orleans, but it's reasonable if you find a good rate in general. It's good you realized the Station Casinos rip-off and found an equivalent place to stay. Gold Coast is cool, very good ambiente, and if you like it some more hip, then walk across the street to the Palms where you find everything you want.
To the big defendors of the Vegas-style tipping system, how do you defend this one?
- A cocktail waitress usually shares her tips with the barmen helping her preparing the drink orders. In other words.....she must take care of him/her as otherwise the situation would be extremely frosty between these two parties. I question myself: Why does she have to tip the barman with money I tip her?
- In many poker rooms, dealers "tip" the floorman/poker room manager who is responsible for the planning, but that's not as a generous move in the first place. In fact, that's the way to ensure that they will be on the shift the next day again. If somebody does not follow these unwritten principles, he/she is taking the risk of "not being considered" to work on the next shift or "being replaced by somebody else".....
You may shake your head and stay it's not true, but I've seen this in person. This once again raises the question in me what's the nature of this entire tipping system.
Or how about this: The long waiting lines in front of these "fancy night clubs" that can only be avoided by "palm greasing" the doorman? Do you also call that tipping, or is it rather palm-greasing? And if you don't want to tip, is it called "stiffing" and then you must wait 3 hours before they .....MAYBE.....let you in?
In this thread, it's absolutely clear who wants the tipping system be legitimate, and who doesn't. People depending on tips want it, others accept it, and a few don't. The ones that don't are called "stiffs". Well, that's ok, I can live with that. But I know for sure that by the end of my trip I will have saved about 200 to 300 usd in tips I would have wasted otherwise, which is just enough to buy myself a nice Bose on hear noise cancelling head-set.
Greetings from Switzerland
BorisR, sounds like you spend a lot of time researching your way into cheap deals. That must take hours of thought and planning, and all to save a few bucks. I guess if you average the time you spend and compare it to the dollars you save, it's probably somewhere around a couple bucks an hour. Far below minimum wage, but that's what I would expect your time to be worth since you clearly are working with a knowledge base that doesn't include simple economics. Please tell me where your business is and what you sell, as I'd love to come in and negotiate a deal with you (in the traditional willing buyer / willing seller manner).
From USA
Driving Down, I avoid "resort fees" like the plague. I never pay one at the Imperial Palace. (I assume other Harrah's resorts are the same on this, not sure). We did have to pay it at Luxor a couple months back. Well hidden in Vegas.com's reservation system. Did get to read an $18 USA Today paper every day. I'd prefer to buy the Sun or RJ at a local store for under a buck. Resort fees reek of the stink that was called "added dealer markup" or "market price adjustment" by car dealerships in the 80's and 90's. Just a way to separate the unsuspecting fool from more money. To the "resorts" Go ahead and charge the fee, just remember that my business will go elsewhere.
Bakersfield, that's absolutely my thinking. The resort fee is a hidden surcharge of things that you don't really need. They're selling you stuff you would never buy otherwise but you can't get the room without paying for it. Would be equivalent if you buy an air ticket with stop-over in Chicago and the stop-over includes a 30 dollar coupon for a Frankie's steak-house. The ticket cost is higher but all tickets would have this steak-house voucher included.
The problem comes up if all operators would charge ridiculous "resort fees", so the customer would not have any option but to accept it.
The current "trick" of these companies is to sell you a "package deal". That is, hotel room plus 2 buffets at a certain rate. This may be some better idea but it's still not great. In fact, this would help the non-gambler tourist just visiting a hotel and then doing other stuff. A guest who is playing a little will make enough comps to get the buffet paid, but probably not the entire room bill. That's why these promotions are only good for the small time gambler or the non-gambler.
I think a really good idea to atract the gamblers and give good deals would be to lower the comp requirements but keep the room rates in general not too low. Gamblers would then get the room cheap or free while the non-gambling visitors (basically worthless to the casino) would have to pay the full price for their room.
From Switzerland
Yield management:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_manag...
BorisR I think I will name you Boris The Stiff...lol!
Things are just done differently in Europe which is fine. Your economic engines are less powerful than our's here in America also, although they are no slouches, but that's another subject.
You sound like you do well to stay at the local joints, but of course you can pay the higher room rates to be in leading edge strip hotels. Your choice. You're dead weight for the help no matter where you stay and play, that is for sure!
cribster64, you probably analized the situation quite right. You can even call me Stiff, although I do in fact tip when I think it's appropriate, believe it or not. I don't stiff the room maid and also take care of the buffet waitress, as long as everything's more or less ok.
Call me a Stiff if you believe that I am stupid enough to tip a dollar in a poker game when I win a 20 dollar pot. That's fine with me. I prefer being a stiff than an idiot. Perhaps both is equivalent for you. I see it's 2 pair of shoes.
So yu really think your economy in the US is any better than the European economy? That's a funny way of seing things, especially when I hear the unemployment figures and your desastrous housing market. I think you got a little bit mixed up in the shuffle, buddy.
Anyway, if you like to get my money, meet me at the poker tables. I give you a shot to take it, but you gotta win it. I will not tip it over to you. Meet me at Bellagio in April.
From Switzerland
Plaza & Vegas Club, in downtown Las Vegas, doesn't have a resort fee. It's just their price & the 13% Hotel Tax.
Big_John -- Great points on the yielding of room rates & airline tickets. Vegas is much cheaper than most vacation destinations in the world. The bums around this board don't get it though"..all they want to do is complain and wish Vegas was back in the 50's....no grasp of reality or the Vegas hotel/casino business. It's pointless to try and explain how it works because they will not listen. Good to see another person in the business around the boards setting it straight.
Travislv86 -- Your comment is a classic! Great point: "It cost big bucks to stay at a nice place. I am looking into a Hawaii vaca and it is going to cost me 150 a night at least. Oh yeah, they don't have and 99 cent buffets there either.
Go on a vacation to elko if you want 29.99 a night."
BorisR - Why do you come to Vegas? You pointed out Macau was so much better.....why don't you go there instead? or how about Atlantic City? Anywhere but here.......I don't rely on tips to make a living, but your attitude disgusts me because there are so many people in our Valley that rely on tips and your tip-stiffing suggestions are absolutely ridiculous. What comes around goes around.......you will get yours in the end. Ha!
S711
RE: BORIS Question two: Is a small bottle of water being handed out by the cocktail waitress "en passant" from "left-over-bottles" on the tray really worth a dollar? The cocktail waitress does purposely adding a few bottles and the poker players oftentimes ask for a bottle of water. Here we go, here's your bottle, sir, and yes, here we go, a buck for you, baby. Thanks:) And the system works. These small bottles of water have no real value, so the player only tips for the service. I disagree that 1 dollar tip for a tiny bottle of water is ok, so I would not order it up. But that's me. Call me whatever you want, I just don't earn so much money over here to be able to pay 1 dollar for 10 oz of water. Obviously, many other people do.
* Hey Boris I am by no means rich but I would gladly tip a buck to the waitress for a tiny bottle of water given the fact that I am thirsty. You sir sound like a cheap unhappy little fella. I will tip anyone who earns it and that goes for the maid, the attendant if I hit something on the machines or at bingo and always always always the cocktail waitress regardless if she brought me water, soda beer or shot of jager. Stay home Boris and stay parched!!
idabessie, thanks your participating. Matter of fact is, there are enough people around tipping that dollar for this little bottle of water. Amazing, even now in this recession, some still don't understand the real value for money. A dollar is a dollar. . For a 1 dollar you could buy yourself a BIG BOTTLE OF WATER at the supermarket or the gas station on your way to the casino. That's 10x more in it than these little bottles of water.
Then please explain me this: Why is a dollar tip at the buffet normal although the buffet waitress must run back and forth, clear your table, bring you new drinks, back and forth..., and in the end, she gets 1 dollar tip? And in the poker room, a bottle of water en passant, that's also worth 1 dollar? Same thing in your eyes? If we would have to value the service "amount", I think a buffet waitress would have to be tipped at least 5 dollars then. Can you agree with me on that one?
to be continued....
here's part two:
Here's this additional bonus fact, seen in the poker room at Bellagio so many times , all over again:
In 1-5 stud or 2/4 limit hold'em, the players usually tip on every single pot, no matter how small it is. Obviously, they enjoy their game so much and enjoy the party that they love to throw their money around. Then, let's switch and take a quick look at the 30/60 limit and 5/10 no limit games and the real big games. There are so many pots of sizes like 2000 dollars, 5000 dollars , and oftentimes more than that. The player gets the money, and not only once I noticed that there's no tipping in these games. How can you explain me that?????
I spoke to a dealer about this "phenomenon" and she told me that unfortunately this is a fact. The small games are the dealers' favorite games as they can get the most tips there. Many dealers hate the big games as they have to be extremely cautious and concentrated but still don't get the kind of compensation needed. I don't know, but perhaps incidents such as the dealer who pick-pocketed 1000 dollar chips from the super high limit game at Bobby's Room has created a too negative impact on the show that the big players have different attitutes now.
idabessie, perhaps you're from the industry yourself? If not, then you've been to some smaller joints, like the Poker Palace, Jerry's Nugget, or casinos in Henderson? How can you explain to me that a cocktail waitress at Jerry's Nugget gets way less tips than a cocktail waitress at Ceasars Palace? Is it because more "Georges" play at Ceasars, or is it because not enough Gearoges play at Jerry's Nugget? Or is it because the locals still have a little different attitude towards tipping? When I was playing 5 cents videopoker at Jerry's Nugget (still losing over 100 dollars that night), I used to tip my regular dollar to the waitress and she passed by fruequently to check back with me if I was doing ok. I noticed, however, that many other players did only tip 50 cents , some tipped nothing at all, which must be frustrating for the waitress. Obviously a 50 cents tip at Jerry's Nugget is normal. And a 1 dollar tip at Caesars may be considered as "undertipping" already?
Look, idabessie, I don't mean to offend anybody , but I see that some guys are heavily offended by my comments. Obviously there's no chance to lead a normal discussion about this subject. We have our opinions, and I am sure I am not alone with my thinking. If you have friends who work as b-j dealers, please do me a favor and ask them if they noticed a little drop in tips lately. I bet they did. And probably not only because there's less players playing, but also because some players simply tip less. And they do that for a reason.
Greetings from Switzerland
BorisR - Go somewhere else......Macau is calling your name. You never answered my question as to why you still come to Vegas? You yourself said Macau is run properly......they have the same casino games as Vegas......why not go there? If you don't agree with our tipping culture here, then don't come. What goes around comes around.
One day you will get into a beef in a casino and the dealer & bosses will not take your side and rule against you. Or one night you might be thirsty and you won't get that bottle of water from that cocktail waitress. Or even worse, you might be in the parking garage at 4 am and get mugged by some criminal and that poker dealer that you stiffed all night long going home from work will turn a blind eye and walk in the other direction. Karma has a weird way of making things right.......good luck with that.
S711
RE Boris: some still don't understand the real value for money. A dollar is a dollar. . For a 1 dollar you could buy yourself a BIG BOTTLE OF WATER at the supermarket or the gas station on your way to the casino. That's 10x more in it than these little bottles of water.
Then please explain me this: Why is a dollar tip at the buffet normal although the buffet waitress must run back and forth, clear your table, bring you new drinks, back and forth..., and in the end, she gets 1 dollar tip?
Boris-I do understand the value of a dollar, recession or no recession. A dollar is not gonna make or break me. Sure I could trot to the 7-11 and pick up a bottle to quench my thirst prior to gambling but I figure I am helping out someone who is more than willing to bring me a drink when asked, that is part of the cocktail waitresses job. I am helping keep this waitress employed is what is comes down to! Why do I get this feeling you probably bring outside drinks into the casino? I can picture you doing the refill of your empties at the bathroom sink. And NOWHERE in my post did I say a dollar tip was normal for the buffet waitress, in my opinion it's not. Not sure where you get all your theories but I think they are untrue. BTW I am NOT in the industry, nor have I been to what you call smaller joints. Strictly a Vegas visitor and not a local at that. And I have to agree with S711, what goes around DOES come around. Boris good luck finding a water fountain and just think, no need to tip!!
Hi Sinatra711, sorry for not having responded to your question yet. I must've overlooked it among all these attempts to get me off track. So you want to know why I still keep coming to Vegas and don't visit Macau instead. Here's my answer:
a) Upon entering the US I did not have to sign a form yet confirming that I must tip a dollar on a 2 oz mini bottle of water. So I am a legitimate tourist, am I not?
b) In order to call me a "Stiff" it is time to define the level at which "stiffing" comes into play. Is a 1 dollar tip at the buffet already considered as stiffing. Or is not tipping the dealer off a 20 dollar pot , is that what you call stiffing? I'd rather call it "burning money".
And now to the main arguments: It is well likely that my next trip to Vegas will be my last one for a looooooooooooooooooooooong time, as in fact I have seen Vegas and how it converted from a once nice rather little town into a big city full of greed. Macau is still being under construction, but right now they have already quite a lot of great casinos there. Once the Encore Macau is ready, plus the few other casinos under construction, I think I'll check out the Macau market. Las Vegas Sands is building additional complexes on the Cotai Strip that very soon a visit will be inevitable. That's for sure.
From all that I have read so far in these many comments, you guys do not follow the main principle: You are attacking me personally, but I am talking about a serious subject. If the Sun staff would act as you did, my comments would have been removed a long time ago. Obviously they accept it as my comments contain some valuable points of discussion. Why else do we have over 100 comments so far on this one?
Here's my little piece of advise: Read the other articles about the situation in Vegas , the comments by Station Casinos COO, etc. And you will realize perhaps that tipping or not tipping is not the thing to get Vegas' economy jump started again. And also, building additional, new casinos, such as the CityCenter, won't help much, either. Now it's payback time to all home owners in Vegas that used their homes like ATM's. All over sudden, there's no additional credit raise from their bank. Wow, something change, hu? And that's why Vegas is in big trouble now. Not because I questioned the subject of over-tipping.
Anyway, Happy New Year to you and good luck at the tables.
I love Vegas for the sun and the great weather conditions. Fortunately I don't have to tip the sun yet. Sunshine is obviously free, still.
BorisR - Your arguments are ridiculous. To address your points:
a) Of course you don't sign a piece of paper that requires you to tip when you come into a country......I didn't sign a piece of paper when I travel overseas that says I shouldn't litter, but I choose not to because I respect the country and culture that I am visiting......it's common sense and common courtesy.
b) Yes, I define you as a "Stiff". Not tipping on a $20 pot in poker and not tipping $1 for a bottle of water is classified as "STIFFING". If you don't want to tip, why don't you get up and go to a water fountain and drink water for FREE? or purchase a bottle before you come to the casino and reload it out of the bathroom sink? Instead of the buffet, why don't you go to the food court where you can pick up your food & throw it away yourself? You know why you don't? Because it is inconvenient! and for that convenience of being SERVED, you are not appreciative.....and that is why you are a STIFF.
c) Just because your comments are allowed to remain by the LV Sun doesn't mean that they endorse your position on tipping. Get a grip dude, you're not that influential.
d) We're not discussing the Vegas economy here, we are talking about tipping.....don't worry about our city, we'll be alright and in time we will recover. However, while we are recovering, I would prefer not to deal with crabby people like you who expect everyone to serve him without any appreciation.
e) It's funny you cite Macau as the best business model for tipping, yet you've NEVER been there! Freakin' hilarious! You have no clue what the service level or experience is like and you are making judgements & suggestions? That explains everything.
Like I said before.....good luck dude....you will need it. Karma is a b!tch and has a strange way of rearing it's ugly head........
S711
am I also a Stiff if I don't tip off a 5 dollar pot?
BorisR - "am I also a Stiff if I don't tip off a 5 dollar pot?"
If you have to ask the question.....then you are a "Stiff". If you took care of the dealers the way you are suppose to.....then you wouldn't have to ask the question, you would know what is right and what is wrong. Being a "Stiff" is not only about not tipping, it's about attitude.
S711
I have a few ideas that need to be implemented in your idea of tipping:
a) From now on tipping at Albertson's and Safeway checkouts should be taken into account.
b) at the gas station, the 15 per cent rule should also apply, as the lady at the check-out is also providing some sort of business
c) the pilot flying me into McCarran also deserves a tip, 15-20 per cent of my air fare. That money is only to be paid upon save landing before unboarding the aircraft.
d) When you get a ticket for speeding and pay cash you should add 20 per cent for the poice officer as tip, as well. He's got to pay for 3 divorces.
e) When I walk into Bank of America to take out 250 dollars, the clerk should only hand me out 230 dllars and keep the rest as a tip.
f) Best Buy check-out girl should get at least 5 dollars tip for putting your dvd's into a plastic bag. That's about appropriate tipping.
If you still haven't received the message, Sinatra, let me help you:
It is obvious that all bottom feeder workers of the service industry are depending on tips, and therefore hate me for my postings, and are lost without their tips. It's because the system is like that.
It is also obvious that the big cats of these casino corporations like this system as it's THEIR WAY TO MAKE A FORTUNE UPON OTHERS, TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM WITHOUT HAVING BIG PAYROLLS.
And if you still don't get the message, I think it's pointless to continue this discussion. You can cry all the way across the atlantic but you will not convince me that tipping of a 20 dollar pot would make any sense, and therefore I prefer being a Stiff. You go ahead and tip from a 5 dollar pot, that'll definetely make you a winning player.
BorisR - Again, you ridiculous logic is showing itself.
a) & b) The cashiers at a Supermarket don't make minimum wage and are not providing a service. The Gas Station cashier isn't filling my tank. In other words, they are not doing something that I can do myself. If the Gas Station cashier filled my tank at Full Service, then I would definitely tip them. If a Supermarket cashier picked up my groceries for me and delivered it to me, then yes, I would tip them.
c) Pilots make a boatload of money, they are well paid to do their job. Again, they are not doing anything that I can't do for myself.
e), f) Same logic applies to Bank Tellers & best buy clerks.....they are compensated for their work and not providing a service. Note that the banking industry is not called the"Service" industry and Best Buy is a retailer, not classified as hospitality.
For the record, I will repeat....I don't work for tips, so it doesn't matter to me. But, my neighbors & friends depend on it to make their mortgage payments, car payments, and put food on their table.
And in case you didn't receive the message.....let me be loud and clear:
"I DON'T CARE IF YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND ABOUT BEING A STIFF, YOU ALWAYS WILL BE A STIFF! JUST TAKE YOUR BUSINESS SOMEWHERE ELSE!"
Comprende? Verstehen? Capire?
Have fun in Macau! ha ha ha! :)
S711
On a side note.....I hope all the poker dealers and cocktail waitresses in town are reading this or at least sharing this info. When you spot someone from Switzerland who is stiffing you....you'll know who it is and "treat him right".....know what I mean? Give him a "warm" Vegas welcome. Ha!
:)
S711
Actually, the main subject of this article was not about tipping but about the hotel occupancy rate. I interpreted the decline of occupancy as a result of the lack of liquidity for many households and therefore less spending money to many of us. The casinos are following the policy of maximizing the profit , or better, minimizing the losses by evaluating methods of grinding out the most from the tourists visiting Vegas.
The casinos have but one policy but trying to camouflage this by "offering" good food at good rates, bowling, cinema, kids quest facilities, swimming pool, a gift shop, and all other features. After all, it's all about taking out the tourist. Selling the illusion of luck by posting big jackpot meters, happy winners with bundles of cash in their hands on the Wall of Fortunes, and all that stuff.
to be continued
part two:
Reality looks completely different: There are more unhappy people put together than anywhere else, most people are losers in the casino. Even the employees themselves look like losers, unless they're in the upper management. At least in today's economy.
If there's a big whale coming in town and he's playing with 100s of thousands (rare to find, but still existing, although many of these Asian whales are now playing in Macau), then it happens that some of these guys do not tip at all. Do you also think that these guys are being given a "warm" Vegas welcome? I think not. If anybody dares to do so, he would lose his job, guaranteed.
If you put 100 guys like me together, you will have 1 big whale perhaps. If I drop 3000 or 5000 dollars in Vegas, during my vacation, then it's ok. But if people are pulling on my leg all the time because I am stiffing, then it will only make it easier for me for not returning in future. If 100 people like me have the same experience, that's perhaps 100 players less, and so on. I am not sure if this would not have any impact on your business in the long run. Perhaps it's irrelevant to you. But once Vegas' reputation is completely ruined, may this be because customers get treated badly for not tipping enough, or may it be because casinos pay only 6:5 on b-j instead of 3:2 or if there are no more full pay machines available, then it's only a matter of time until more casinos will have to shut down.
As this one here is probably something you have to agree with : "Nothing comes from nothing". You can't get your economy working by welcoming people like me in an unfriendly matter like you have tried over the past hours.
Not that it really matters, I will still have my fun, with or without your comments. You can't imagine how much I enjoyed reading your subjective comments. That's 1+1 of pure ignorance. You believe that your system is 100 per cent correct and that there are no alternatives. What you must learn to understand that the world is no longer about United States and it's policies. Wait till your currency gets even weaker and your gross deficit goes up to 200 trillion. Sooner or later your economical system will collaps. With or without our silly discussion on tipping.
Best wishes from Switzerland
Mrabilty's forecasts are dismal but he's probably right. In 2010 people won't have any money so they are going to continue to be tightwads and spend as little as possible. (But they will also be getting into colossal amounts of student loan debt--that's incredibly stupid). Instead of going to Blockbuster they will rent from Redbox. The Nikon L20 camera costs $120 at Target but it lists for $80 on Amazon with no taxes or shipping. Where do you think I'm going to buy it? I don't care if Calif. is going broke and needs the 10% sales taxes. Yeah, casino workers should get real jobs but there are fewer of those everyday. The Boeing 787 was 70% outsourced. It finally flew, 2 years behind schedule, and 9 tons overweight. lol
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-dr...
Boris, Next time you're in L.V., I'll drive over and we can do lunch. (I'll pay the tip) We should invite Sinatra. That would be some great table conversation. I'd sure enjoy it. I suggest Siena Deli at Trop and Eastern, Or Memphis Barbecue on Warm Springs.
I have no problems to meet Sinatra in person. I take evverything that's writtin in here only half as hot as it really is :) We have different point of views but we know that both sides are somewhat correct. Anyway, if you are interested to arrange a personal meeting, pls let me know. I will be in Vegas from March 15 for 4 weeks. I think I will have to donate some money to the city then :))))
I guess since I'm driving over the Hoover Dam from Phoenix and getting my hotel rates off Priceline (and this upcoming trip I WILL be staying at Motel 6), eating at the normal McDonalds/KFC/Wendys I eat at in Phoenix instead of in restaurants, or even getting some groceries and snacks at Walmart; and only going to locals' casinos OFF STRIP and leaving if the machines don't pay out by the time I'm halfway through the $100 per DAY I have budgeted to play slots (and no I do not play table games or the sports book) and not getting ANY drinks from ANY waitress...does that mean I'm not welcome in Las Vegas???
I should hope not.
News Flash, right from the TV report about Las Vegas, by an U.K. tv station: Lake Mead water level is at 43 per cent from it's peak. Since 1999 it dropped about 130 feet, and the remaining "life" of the water resource is good for approx. 8 years till the total collaps.
Las Vegas' water supply is feeded approx 90 per cent from Lake Mead water. So far so good. Here's the good news: Las Vegas only consumes 3 per cent of that water, daily, and the rest flows on to California. 2 per cent of these 3 percent is the water being used at the Strip hotels, so in fact, the Las Vegas water consumption seems to be all right if they would raise the 3 per cent ratio by some.
Whether you like this info or not, whether you believe it or not is not relevant. The spokeswoman from the Southern Nevada Water Authority furthermore said that if the drought continues like in the recent years, in approx 4 years they will call out the critital period and shorten all water usage. If the drought still continues, in 8 years from now, that's in 2018, there will be no more power production from Lake Mead possible due to the low water level and insufficient capacities.
What this all means, should be clear to eaverybody: Whether we tip by then or not is no longer of any importance. Without water this city will stop existing and a huge exodus will kick in.
That's the situation, cut and dry. Will they be able to get the water pipelines ready by 2018?
micmac99 - We'll gladly welcome you. At least you aren't stiffing people who are serving you. Everything you just said was self service.....welcome to Vegas.
S711
re: Water - Who cares about the water? When I lived in California in the mid 80's they tried to pull this same scare tactic.....we're now in the 2nd decade of the 2000's and California's population has grown and they still have plenty of water. Vegas will survive....this water scare is all B.S. There is still Lake Powell and other sources upstream that they are holding back on. I'll be long gone before water is ever a serious problem.
S711
Sinatra, I wouldn't bet my money on that one. Really not. The white marks on the rocks indicate the water level as of 1999, the lady from the water authority said. I don't think that this was pure bluff. The current water level is way lower.
You can only hope that the unemployment rate in Vegas goes up and more people move away so water consumption will scale down a bit. With these many golf courses already bankrupt and shut down, another waste of water has come to an end to a degree, and who knows, perhaps you will get a lot of unexpected rainfall in Vegas over the next decade.....which I doubt. But if Colorado gets a lot of snow, this would change a thing again. Anyway, the situation is quite serious, I wouldn't underestimate it as once it's too late it's too late to react.
BorisR - I'm not worried.
First of all, most of the golf courses in the Valley don't use water from Lake Mead. They use recycled water.....you can't drink it.
Secondly, this is just a scare tactic to try and get us citizens to use less water. I don't pay any attention to it. I have grass in both the front and back yards and water it like crazy. Yes, I have huge water bills, but I don't care....I want a nice looking lawn, so I'm willing to live with it.
Listen, I've experienced this kind of stuff already in California. Growing up in the mid-late 80's they tried scaring us with the drought crap in CA. Nothing ever happened. California is still there. No cities in California turned to dust and the population grew too! Yes, I would like the unemployed to leave the State, but for different reasons, not water.
There is too much money at stake here to let something like water destroy a city like Las Vegas. They will empty lakes like Lake Powell and other unimportant lakes up the Colorado before anything like that happens.
S711
Sintatra, thanks for that input. I spoke to a friend of mine about this water issue this morning and he also said that there might be a water shortage coming up but there are still lakes around to clean out first. And then there's this option that Nevada gets a higher share from the Colorado , e.g. the share that is meant to be for California, and pays for the desalination plants that could be built in California. It's an expensive project but probably inevitable. Like in Dubai for instance, where they only have water which was taken from the sea and therefore had to be desalitnated.
Do you know if the "itching" on the skin comes from the sun or from the water ? I noticed that so many times when I was in Vegas for more than 2 or 3 weeks. After a while, my skin starts to itch really bad and I must scratch it all the time. Over here in Switzerland, we've got absolutely no water problems yet and we drink the water from the tab, no problem. I think it's not recommended in Vegas, but I'm not sure about that. Anyway, the itching is something I noticed only over there, but could also be it's from taking too much sun? I don't know.
BorisR - The "itching" is probably from your skin getting dried out in the desert climate. When I moved here from California in the early 90's, that happened to me. Everyone I know who moved from a more humid climate had the same issue.
S711
ok, i gotcha. Thanks, Sinatra. This explains why there's this lotion in all hotel rooms. I will see how it's gonna be like in April when I come over for my next visit.
Greetings
I went to vegas this year for my 50th. Its true the strip prices were higher, but just off the strip at the Orleans I was able to get 2 nights free (Tue, Wed) and paid $100.00 for Thursday. So on the 31st I went down to the strip at 7 pm and parked at Ellis Island had a great steak dinner for 6.99 and then walked up to the strip and was at the best spot to see the fountains playing and 4 firework shows all at the same time. Total cost for return airfare and hotel $558.00 from Edmonton, memories for a lifetime. Oh one thing bring a coat its chilly at night.