Industry rolls out bonus-heavy slots that stretch playing time
The “Sex and the City” slot machine, based on the HBO series, is programmed to hit a bonus, on average, once every 25 spins, which exceeds the bonus-payout norm. The game features the show’s title track, and bonuses involve winning virtual jewelry, shoes and champagne.
Monday, Dec. 14, 2009 | 2 a.m.
Promotional video from the slot manufacturer
Sun Archives
- Organizers declare Global Gaming Expo a success (11-20-2009)
- Boyd chief: Recession forcing Vegas back to roots (11-19-2009)
- South Point’s Michael Gaughan inducted into Gaming Hall of Fame (11-18-2009)
- Gaming association: Industry rebound will trail national economy (11-17-2009)
- Gaming’s financial execs weigh in on tough times (11-17-2009)
All gamblers want to win. But there are different definitions of winning.
Some players fixate on big jackpots and don’t care what happens in the interim. Other gamblers, knowing a win is unlikely at best, want to lose their money as slowly as possible and aim for bonuses that serve a role much like a virtual gulp of water for a character in a video game, as they keep the game alive just a bit longer. Still others fixate on bonuses that become their own reward for the time spent on the machine.
It is this third category that the industry, in today’s economy, appears to be playing to, says Michael Shackleford, a slot machine programmer and consultant who runs a Web site called wizardofodds.com.
“The trend in the industry is all about making returns on the bonuses and making them hit more frequently,” Shackleford said. “It’s all about waiting for the next bonus.”
That goes to the casinos’ strategy to drain as much of their customers’ money without disappointing them along the way. It’s no mean feat in a poor economy, when middle-class gamblers who didn’t cut back much in past downturns are now spending significantly less at the slots.
Enter “Sex and the City,” the most talked-about new slot machine at last month’s Global Gaming Expo. It is based on the witty HBO series that chronicled the sexual conquests and romantic pursuits of four working women in New York.
The slot machine version reduces the show to obvious, although visually pleasing, stereotypes that flit by as the salsa-flavored title song plays: animated pink hearts encrusted with glittering diamonds, high-heeled shoes nestled in leopard-print boxes, champagne and chocolate on silver trays and jewelry boxes brimming with pearls and diamond rings.
The device attracted the requisite crowd, including casino managers and competitors familiarizing themselves with new products. Strangely enough, some women looked like they were simply playing for fun (slots are free to play at the expo, the world’s largest demonstration of slot machines, so no harm, no foul).
“I want to get the shoe bonus,” a 30-something woman said to an impatient co-worker who wanted to move on.
They won’t have to wait long. Manufacturer International Game Technology programmed the machine to hit a bonus, on average, once every 25 spins. That’s high, as some industry experts say a bonus frequency from 40 spins to 100 spins is more typical.
Many bonuses aren’t true wins because they pay back less than the gambler’s initial wager, but still the fun of frequent rewards might soften the expense of playing this game.
Although typical slot machines feature one screen of spinning reels, this game divides the screen into four sections, with four games going at once. The game is part of a product line called MultiPlay that encourages gamblers to play multiple games. Playing one game isn’t much fun because only one-fourth of the screen lights up.
Playing multiple games, such as multiple hands of blackjack, is presumably more stimulating but can be expensive. The cheapest spin of the “Sex and the City” game costs $2, as a minimum of 200 credits at 1 cent each will cover all four games. Gamblers can wager up to three credits on each of the 30 “paylines” attached to each game, or $6 per spin. At 5 cents per 200 credits, a spin would cost $10.
One Las Vegas casino manager said the “Sex and the City” machine probably wouldn’t hold much appeal for her typical customers — retired locals on fixed incomes who want their $20 or $50 to last a long time. But it might be a hit with tourists or infrequent gamblers, who are more inclined to appreciate the diversion of showy games, she said.
Indeed, the 30-something woman playing the machine was gunning for a digital pair of pumps as keenly as a big jackpot. (Whether she would spend her own money on the game isn’t known.)
Ah! A pearl necklace. Several, in fact. A sigh of mild satisfaction escapes her lips.
Might as well try for another bonus, or hear that catchy theme song a few more times. Her co-worker would have to wait.
IGT Director of Marketing Julie Brown acknowledges that her company is focusing on bonus-heavy games because they’re more entertaining.
Casinos are well aware of gamblers’ increasingly vocal complaints, even before the recession, that today’s fancy-pants slots swallow their money faster than the old ones did.
It’s a complicated debate.
Bosses contend that the amount paid back to gamblers hasn’t changed much over time and that gamblers are simply more aware of their losses when times are tough. While it’s often true that people tend to view the past through rose-colored glasses, aggregate figures compiled by the state show that payback percentages have declined in recent years. Casinos say it’s because they have replaced older, higher-denomination slots with high-tech “penny” games that pay out less over time but give players more chances to win in the short term. Players fueled the changeover because they overwhelmingly prefer such games, they say.
Experts such as Shackleford contend that leased slots such as “Sex and the City” — which tend to be more elaborate and expensive for manufacturers because of the amount spent on licensing well-known brands and crafting elaborate bonuses around them — also tend to have lower average paybacks than generic slots casinos can buy outright.
Lower average paybacks serve to compensate casinos and manufacturers for investing in more sophisticated features with more entertainment value, he says. With leased, or “participation” slots, casinos don’t own the games but share revenue with manufacturers. That payback theory is sound but difficult to prove, as manufacturers don’t post the chances of winning a jackpot.
Sometimes a virtual necklace is just a virtual necklace.
Winning it was a heck of a lot cheaper than dropping $700 on a pair of Manolo Blahnik pumps — a satisfying prospect, no doubt, for thrifty consumers. And yet, buying the real thing is just the kind of gratification the show’s Carrie Bradshaw would have preferred.
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How about doing the right thing in the 1st. place,, Loosen up all of the slots and see what that will bring ! ( I bet a lot of happier customers ) \Don't try to BS us, WE know we are not as stupid as you think we are !
These are NOT slots, they are just video games which are going to be server based systems designed to hold back your money at the whim of the casino manager depending on how well you are doing, or how busy the floor is BS I SAY!! IGNORE THESE MACHINES!!!!!
Yes, this is gaming NOT gambling. Under the rules that has killed the goose that laid the golden egg, a gamer is expected to pay $50-$500 per hour to PLAY a game as the game is entertaining you. There is no winning. Stay away from all slots until real GAMBLING odds return, and the gambler has a chance to win. If you want to play a game buy a video game consol, you can play and not pay. This shift from paying to playing has ruined Las Vegas and wiped out the casual gambler. People want to play and win, not just pay to play. Paying to play without a chance at winning is not entertainment.
"...The cheapest spin of the "Sex and the City" game costs $2, as a minimum of 200 credits at 1 cent each will cover all four games...."
"...as manufacturers don't post the chances of winning a jackpot...."
"...aggregate figures compiled by the state show that payback percentages have declined in recent years...."
"...That goes to the casinos' strategy to drain as much of their customers' money without disappointing them along the way...."
THOSE FOUR SENTENCES ABOVE SUM UP THE ENTIRE GAMBLING INDUSTRY STRATEGY:
SUCK YOU DRY FOR AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE
And do it by "enticing" you to sit in front of a "machine" all day and pushing buttons for "pleasure".
Pavlov would be making a million off of these gamblin' fools.
(Tell me, how's it feel to be a gamblin' lab rat...)
>> Ah! A pearl necklace. Several, in fact. A sigh of mild satisfaction escapes her lips.
are we still talking about gaming here?
This interesting article highlights a reason that people play the slots-to keep them interested by slowly taking their money but enticing them to continue by occasionally giving them enough back to keep their interest/avarice alive.
Which brings me to horse racing, a dying sport if there ever was one. It is pari-mutual, which means the track wins 20% (much more on exotics) whether you win or lose. And if you bet a horse to win, and it comes in second, you get nothing. Nada. One time, I was at a track with the Ex, and after she lost a $2 bet on the horsie with a pretty name, she said something quite interesting. "Don't they even give you something back? Like 50 cents?" See, the problem with horse racing is that there is no reason to go back to the betting window unless you won. What if they did give you something back? You lost, but you did get a small portion, and you have to go to the window to get it. Where you probably will place another bet. A great way to keep the bettor involved, even if he's still losing.
Nah, won't happen. Racetracks are so 1946. Hollywood Park may be closing, but those Indian casinos are flourishing, and they don't have to publish their payout percentages-or anything else. What's killing horse racing is innovation-or the complete lack of it. Sad...
I don't care about shoe bonuses or pearl necklaces.....I WANT TO WIN!!!
I agree with teh Las Vegas casino owner. MOST of us want our money to last more than 10 minutes. Also, this game will appeal to that group of young gals on a "Batchelorette Party" trip to Vegas, who all stand around the person playing the machine and when that person wins just $2, the whole group starts screaming.
PS A minimum spin of $2????? No way!
you know they are going to loose people....only and idiot will pump $ 100 buck to win virtual shoes...and who wants a bouns that pays nothing? that has been the trend get the bonus and get nothing....I used to play about 6 times per month with an average of $ 200 bucks per visit and for years I would hit 3-7 big jackpots per year so although most times I would still be down for the years some years I would be up....fast forward the last two years....no jackpots very few large wins.....my play has dropped to 1 to 2 times per month and getting ready to be 0 times per month.....NO REWARD !!!!!! THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WILL KEEP COMING BACK ARE ADDCITS... I love to play but one person was right i will just break out the play station if I want to be entertained with no tangible reward......fools they are killing the industry ...
Rocco hit it. There used to be a chance to win, now only the addicts will be playing. Most gamblers aren't addicts and they see that the chances of winning are very, very slim and are skipping the casinos.
It's very simple.....if you don't like the game, don't play it. If the casinos & slot machine manufacturers don't make any money off it, they will stop developing these types of games. There's a reason why games have been developed along these lines.......because most of them make money!
I watch the old "reel" games at work, and hardly anybody plays them anymore. However, all of the new games like Wizard of Oz & Top Gun have people waiting in line to play them. The business has evolved.
S711
Don't know where the determination came that:
Casinos say it's because they have replaced older, higher-denomination slots with high-tech "penny" games that pay out less over time but give players more chances to win in the short term. Players fueled the changeover because they overwhelmingly prefer such games, they say.
I know of no-one that prefers the "penny" machines and their inherent small payouts. In fact, it is becoming increasingly frustrating as casinos replace "real" reel machines with video displays.
> The business has evolved.
this explains why Stations is in BK? and probably why the monthly reported NGC "take" keeps going down? I knew there had to be an excellent reason.
Small periods of positive reinforcement over a longer period of time giving the gambler the illusion of looser slots...You guys are so tricky
PLEASE PLEASE, Can anyone on this page tell me if they know who this SCHMUCK called Sinatra711 is and where he might work at? I hope someone knows the answer, because even though I'm 100% finished with ever returning to Vegas, I would go out of my way for 1 last trip there just so I could see with my own two eyes what the world's biggest DUMB A** looks like!! He claims that he works for one of the larger casinos. He wont tell me, because he thinks I want to stalk him, LOL, LOL. Honest Sinatra711, I wont even say a word to you or even come any closer than 50 feet away. I just want a good LAUGH!!
My business partner has a fun slot game he likes to play when we find ourselves in a casino. He will stick c-note into a "Wheel of Fortune" machine and naturally will hit a medium payback. He takes the ticket and cashes in while he's ahead.
I've never seen him lose. Of course he only gets to play for a few minutes, but that's the point. The only way to beat any casino, in Vegas, reservation or riverboat is to quit while you're ahead.
Not a lot of fun, but if you're serious about winning, it seems like a proper strategy. Of course they didn't build Vegas because players could quit while they are ahead.
The next wave of electronic gaming in casinos will be skill games anyway. Don't worry, nobody will be able to quit those while they're ahead either.
Sinatra711 :
Although I am repulsed by your posts most of the time, I am in agreement with you on this discussion. PEOPLE DON'T PLAY THESE VIDEO GAME BS SO CALLED SLOTS!! LACK OF INTEREST WILL MAKE THE CASINO REMOVE THEM OFF THE FLOOR!!!
"The only way to beat any casino, in Vegas, reservation or riverboat is to quit while you're ahead."
That's 110 percent correct. I turned $50 into $200 in one of our tribal casinos here in Phoenix over the weekend doing just that, and could have left with $600 if I wasn't greedy and wasted money on Wizard of Oz which is tight as a drum in that place (Lone Butte).
"The next wave of electronic gaming in casinos will be skill games anyway. Don't worry, nobody will be able to quit those while they're ahead either."
So you're saying people will be playing Call of Duty or Halo in a casino???? How do you even pay for or win on something like that? 20 dollars for every kill????
REMEMBER "VIDEO SLOTS" ARE CONTROLLED BY A "RAM-CHIP".
EVEN THE WORLD CLASS CHESS CHAMPION COULD NOT BEAT THE "RAM-CHIP"
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN?
vegas_tom - The Stations BK has absolutely zero to do with game mix. That was a pure financial mess that had nothing to do with operations. Bad timing on the buyers part. Even if they had "old style" slot machines in there, it couldn't have saved the company. There are plenty of "older" machines downtown.....I wonder why Downtown isn't killing it? People have choices, they can play where the older machines are....but they choose not to. Why? Because only a small % of customers care about payback % and such.....the rest just want to be entertained.
bringbackthemob - I can see that my favorite person is here to join the conversation. What a great week! :) Always look forward to seeing you around my friend.
environprotector - Thank you. At least someone here understands and is not afraid to agree with someone they normally don't agree with. Very simple, if you don't like it....don't play it. Let the numbers talk.
Remember folks, this is driven by revenues & profits.....speak with your wallets.
S711
S711....
I guess folks are speaking with their wallets.... in November there were more visitors here and the take was down. Sounds like a strong vote of no confidence, to me.
I've got friends here the past couple of days and in that time they've dumped close to $2K and lets just say the fun has been extremely limited. Extremely limited. I'm witnessing the souring of two regular visitors who are already talking about sticking with their local indian casino if this is as good as it gets in Vegas.
There's no doubt the model has changed --- and I don't believe the change is serving the town well.
Actually this strategy mentioned above of playing a slot machine for a few short minutes and bailing immediately doesn't work, I'm sorry to inform you. It's truly baffling how empty Americans' knowledge of even basic statistical concepts is.
Assuming a normalized probability distribution / standard bell curve of possible outcomes, and a fixed house edge of roughly 8% per trial, one cannot, in some many words, beat the game. As N (# of trials) increases, the fixed house edge becomes increasingly dominate and you'll find yourself losing a sterling average of 8% of your bankroll/buying per trial.
The X-factor is of course the prevailing and ever elusive "jackpot" that don't really seem to hit anymore. Ever.
One could hit for 5,6, or 7 figures and quit. Know any gamblers who've done that? I haven't seen a jackpot hit in years.
vegas_tom - It depends on what your friends did while they were in town. Here are a few facts:
- Room rates are down in Vegas 25-40% from 2007 levels. You can find Wynn/Encore/Bellagio rooms for $149/nt....are you kidding me?
- 5 Star restaurants are getting creative with their pricing...ie offering pre-fixe menus, special brunches, etc. Allowing for people to experience their product/service who couldn't afford it in the past.
- Most shows are offering major discounts on their tickets. Many Cirque shows and headliners are known to offer 2 for 1 offers to even non-locals.....this was unheard of in the past.
- Despite the perception of some people, the gaming product hasn't changed much.
- You can get into many nightclubs now that were exceptionally hard to get into before.
As you can see, the Vegas experience has never been more affordable. I'm not sure what your friends did, but $2,000 on a trip today would yield 3x what it would 2 yrs ago. From someone who works in the industry, I'm not sure where you're coming from when you say that $2k wasn't good enough for your friends.....maybe, just maybe they had a string of bad luck that weekend??
S711
ScottsdaleSun13 - Finally, someone who is intelligent enough to understand how it works! I didn't want to get into all of the Stats as most of the readers here don't get it and refuse to try to understand. For a good laugh, you should check out the commentary on this page:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/dec...
S711
Chevron has the hottest slots. It's a local secret ;)
Zzyzx - Great name! Have you ever driven down that road? lol
S711
These penny slots are the biggest rip off to ever hit the casino floor. First it's not a freakn penny machine--it cost you about 3.00 to play the damn thing. so right off the bat your playing more than twice the cost of the video poker machines and almost 4 times the cost of a regular slot machine. secondly they almost never pay any large amount of payoff---alot of bells and whistles and music and then you see you've won $11 bucks. I've never seen anyone signing an 1099 at a penny slot machine---because they almost never pay that kind of money out! No one should play this crap and they will take it off the floor!!!!!
I recently spent a couple of weeks at Grandview condos next to South Point. Me and the mrs each started with $800 each playing the penny slots. We played about 4 to 6 hours a day. After 10 days I was down $400 and the mrs. down about $100.
Fortunately, on the last Great Turkey Hunt day my name was called and I won $2500.
We has a great time playing the slots at South Point. I thought the slots were fairly loose there. In a way, believe it or not,playing slots is partly a skill game.
mrlucky - Maybe you don't see anyone signing a 1099 at a penny slot machine because they don't issue a 1099 for taxable slot jackpots on penny slot machines....lol
saltydawg - Thank you for the excellent perspective from a happy customer's point of view. You are more than welcome to test your slot playing skills back in Vegas anytime you want. I'll even buy you dinner. :)
S711
As a Software Engineer for the past eighteen years, I will absolutely not play any programmable machine in Las Vegas (or anywhere else for that matter) because I know that the odds are not in my favor - actually, come to think of it, what odds? I am just going to be flushing my money down the drain in any casino today while the Casino shareholders get rich.
The casino's only advertise the one or two people a year who win MegaBucks but don't say anything about the millions of people who lost a months or more salary, or those hundreds of obsessed gamblers who lost everything, or the few that even lost their jobs, marriages, and lives because of gambling.
When the machines can return to a simple random payout that cannot be manipulated by the casino in any way, I might start going back to casinos. Until then I will sadly watch everyone else lose!
If people want to make the casinos rich and get nothing in return, they should just stay home and mail in what they would have thrown away at the casino anyway. That would help them save money and time for the trip and reduce the smog and traffic congestion that their time wasting trip would create.
rabmag - Just to clarify.....you aren't a Software Engineer for a slot machine manufacturer are you? Because if you were, you would realize that the machines placed in casinos ARE random with their payouts and are NOT manipulated by the casinos. Why do the casinos need to do that? The statistics are in their favor without having to manipulate the payout.
Hilarous.
S711
P Gun, the rest of ya, Sinatra knows. I have been a Gaming Analyst for 15 yrs in a medium size N/A casino in the midwest. Sinatra does know what he's talking about. Slot payouts are random, are fixed, and do, over time, pay the casino the fixed % that they installed on the machine. Software upgrades to change payout% are expensive, in time and money.
Payout% for the Strip, Downtown, North NV, and alot of casino boats and such in other states are available online and in print.
My own personal experience gambling tells me that if you put in @ 40$, at some point you will be ahead, problem is I don't leave just because I'm up 10$. Gamblers ruin.
PeterGun - Again....hilarious post! Why? Because I don't have to KNOW IT ALL! It isn't my invention, creation, or knowledge......it is Statistics. Ever heard of it?
I didn't invent statistics. Here's a simple example......the odds of a coin flip landing on heads is 50%, the odds on landing on tails is 50%. If you wager $1 on tails on a coin flip, the true statistical odds are that you should get paid $1 if you win and lose $1 if you don't. If you were to make that bet in a casino, they would pay you $.95 if you win and take $1 if you lose. Over time, it doesn't matter what type of betting system or elaborate tracking of the results system you come up with......you will lose money. Very simple.
Now apply that same principle on the games you see in the casino. Same thing is going on. And regarding the so called "manipulation" of the machines hold %. The casinos make tons of money without having to do that.....and why would they risk losing their gaming license, which is a license to print money??? Just so they could screw a few people out of a little bit more? That's just nonsense.
And for your information, I am in my late 30's, been in the casino business for 20 yrs....and have worked from the lowest level up to where I am at now. So, I've worked and seen the casino operation from every angle you can think of.....front of the house to back of the house to management.
Any more ?'s from the peanut gallery?
:)
S711
inghamd - Thanks for speaking up and letting the ignorant know that what I'm saying isn't made up stuff. It's pretty entertaining to watch them try to punch holes in it......makes me laugh.
I hope your property is doing well.
S711
Thank you Petergun for your comment about this CREEP LOSER SINATRA711. You saved me the time to write everything that you just said. I'm one of the old timers who started playing in Vegas in 1962. I'm old enough to be this punks father & of course he is nothing but a shill who knows NOTHING! Vegas is going down the tube, so save your breath and time Sinatra711, there is nothing you can do or say that will save your job! Like I said before, you better go back to school, because it wont be long before you are out of a job! LOL
bringbackthemob - I can see that my favorite crusty, curmudgeon is back! :)
It's funny how you old timers can't argue with facts and statistics, but have to resort to name calling. Just because you don't have an education doesn't mean you should put down people who are pursuing higher education and truly understand how this all works. Maybe if you did, you'd see it differently. It's because you don't know what you are talking about. We don't want you in Vegas anyways......you don't spend, you don't tip, and you just make everyone around you miserable. Good riddance!
Good to hear from you grandpa! Have fun in Laughlin.....
Ha!
S711
Bonus frequency is from 40 to 100 spins? Yeah. More like 100 to 150 on machines like Monopoly Jackpot Station. With lots of dead, non paying spins in between. But a really fun game when you get into the bonus. One of those machines that you only take $20-40 to.
My current favorites for bonuses are StarTrek, PowerBall, Time machine, Hit the Heights and those new quad machines that play 4 games at once.
Everybody knows that slots are strictly entertainment, not gambling. If you want to gamble, play poker.
Sinatra711 :
Your such a schmuck! please stop bringing shame to the Great Frank Sinatra's name and change yours to Schmuck!
S711,
That guy at the older reel slots (with one line, 3 reels), That's me! I'm just not into the penny video games that are a lot more than a penny to play. Who has time to figure out all the cartoon screens on those things. I'll take my double diamond, give them a 20 and either leave when I get to 40 or leave when I get to 0. We'll be in L.V. early next week, see ya' there!
Zzyzx, I went to Chevron last month, Stuck 40 in the bill feeder, stuck a hose in my car, watched the electronic reels count to 40, disconnected the hose and left. Guess I should have gone inside!
environprotector - If you hate our city so much....leave. It won't miss you or your crusty attitude. Maybe you should give Reno or Laughlin a try.....I hear they have casinos that are still stuck in the 80's. Ha!
And by the way, if Ol' Blue Eyes were around......he'd tell you the same thing.
:)
S711
Bakersfield - Well God Bless you. I hope you find what you are looking for in the current version of Vegas. If not, I don't know what to tell you. Unfortunately, there aren't enough of you out there to justify keeping too many of those machines on the casino floor.
S711
Sinatra711 :
Don Laughlin was a good friend of mine, and you have no right to even say his name, let alone use Sinatra's. Don took a small fishing camp along side of the Colorado River, and turned it into the empire it is today! I doubt VERY seriously you can claim anything other than shuffling and dealing cards on the grave shift in some corporate abyss joint...
environprotector - Perfect.....pack your bags and move to Laughlin. Sounds like a match made in heaven! There was a reason why I knew it would be a good place for you......you have history with it's founder and it's the appropriate level of customer service. Have fun!
:)
S711
S711, Not to worry, I can find the machine I want to play. No, it won't be at the glitzy places on the strip, But the Fitz, Binions, Palace Station, Gold Strike (Jean) all have them. And the old cars at the IP are a must stop, Then Lunch at Siena Deli, Dinner at Memphis BBQ or Lindo Michgoan...Some dancing at Toby Keith's, Visiting with a friend or 2.....I'll have a great time in L.V. I just won't be playing those 300 penny per play glorified video games!
just play table games... the odds don't change.
But wait... Can someone explain to me why Vegas needs two zeros [00], while Monte Carlo, Monaco casinos [and many other countries in the World] get by with just one zero [just cutting casino's advantage in roughly half]?
People see thru all this... changing slot odds etc. and you wonder why gambling revenue falls for 22 straight months... and it will be 23, 24... and maybe one blip, tick up [and it will be a *big* news] and then the the downtrend will continue again.
Casinos' greed? Nah... :)
Well everybody is right because it is gambling and not gaming. The odds are that you must pay to play. When you win you are at the right place at the right time. I have seen a Lady win $6010.00 on a penny machine. I have won $435.00 on a bonus round. The odds are illegal because they are not random generated. They are told where to stop and that is it. Used to be a slot had 22 stops, but now electronics have turned that 22 into 200 plus stops. Only because they are told where to stop.
Odds are that you will lose but that goes to show you how much you will spend to entertain yourself. So win or lose just have some fun and when it isn't fun you have over spent and need to leave.