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Germany has socialized health care, here’s one look at how it works
Sunday, Aug. 23, 2009 | 2 a.m.
I’m not so sure a socialized health care system is such a bad idea. I lived it, and I’m certainly no worse for wear.
During the 1990s I lived in Germany, both as an American Army brat and as a German citizen.
My mother gave birth to my youngest sister in a German hospital. My sister is 18 years old and heading off to college. Infant mortality is lower in Germany than it is here.
My grandmother (we call her Oma) had a hip replaced when she was 86 years old, shortly after my grandfather (Opa) died at age 90 — hardly proof that the elderly population is left out in the cold by a social system looking to save money. Oma waited just a week to have the operation and healed beautifully, regaining her mobility. Although she has slowed down, she is still active at 93.
One of my mom’s sisters is a home health care nurse for the elderly. She will retire in a few months at age 60 (in Germany, they still have pensions).
And once when I had a severe cough, my mother called up our town’s doctor and within a couple of hours, I was sitting in her office waiting for my appointment.
I didn’t have to go to an emergency room, I didn’t have to wait six weeks to see my primary care physician (as I did here in Las Vegas). I saw my doctor that day.
I paid my co-payment, which is similar to what I pay today with my HMO plan, learned I had bronchitis, got a prescription and then headed to the pharmacy, which in our town was next door to the butcher and the bakery.
I bring this up because there is a lot of rhetoric decrying a push toward a socialized health care model as Congress considers legislation reforming the system.
A little background on Germany’s health care system: Everyone has health insurance, and the premiums paid are placed into a pool and distributed among the 200 nonprofit insurers from which Germans can choose. Parents don’t pay for their children’s health insurance, probably as an encouragement to increase the country’s lagging birthrate.
As a group, the insurers negotiate prices with medical professionals. Those too poor to afford insurance have it subsidized. The nation’s health care spending is about 10 percent of its gross domestic product. By comparison, the United States’ spending is 16.2 percent and rising. In 2007 and 2008, 86.7 million people were without insurance at some point, according to research by health care advocate Families USA.
My health care experience in Germany ended 10 years ago when I returned to the United States, so I wrote to my cousin Veronika, a nurse at a surgical unit with 30 beds in Bavaria. Not only does she work in the system, but she also pays taxes that go toward providing her health insurance.
She shared her thoughts on the system — good, bad, otherwise — and I’ll share them with you (for the record, I translated the letter from German to English).
Her monthly income, before taxes, is 2,000 euros, or $2,900. From this, she pays 8.2 percent in a health payroll tax, up to about $1,300 a year. There are people in the U.S. who pay this per month.
“Personally, I find this totally OK,” she said. “It’s not necessarily cheap, but it’s also not overly expensive. Anyway, everyone has to pay into it.”
If she becomes ill, she must see her primary care doctor.
“If it’s something urgent or threatening, one will, in most cases, receive an appointment one to two days later, but then must wait a very long time (in the office). On average, about one or two hours. In the hospital it is also like that.”
That may not seem like a long time to those of us used to waiting hours for an appointment we scheduled a month ago, but she said the wait for something such as a computer tomography can take over a month — again, not too different from here, unless you visit the test-heavy emergency room.
In Germany, everyone pays into the health care system, although if you are among the wealthiest 10 percent, and make more than 6,000 euros a month (about $8,600), you can elect instead to buy private insurance. About 10 percent of the German population is privately insured.
This is where there is a disparity in care, Veronika tells me.
“If one is privately insured, one must wait much less longer in the waiting room,” she said. “In a practice, (those with private insurance) wait, for the most part, no more than half an hour. The reason for that is the doctor will be paid a lot more by the private insurer than the public system.
“Therefore, in Germany there is also a second-class society in the health care system debate, which the public feels is very unfair. Everyone who can’t afford private insurance will be treated worse.”
She says private insurance is expensive, although she’s not sure how much it costs.
As a nurse in the surgical ward where everything from appendectomies to hip replacements is done, she’s noticed the difference in treatment from the medical staff between someone who has private insurance and someone who doesn’t.
“A privately insured will be visited every day by the head doctor,” she said. “The publicly insured will mostly be visited by a physician assistant.”
Doctors are paid about a third less than their American counterparts, but they also pay far less in malpractice insurance.
There will always be a disparity in treatment so long as there are different payment models. In the U.S., there are doctors who won’t accept certain health plans, leaving many patients without access to care.
Of course, for Americans to accept a social system, they would have to leave behind the prevalent me-first mentality.
By the way, if you’re going to tell me to leave this country if I don’t like the current system, I’d just like to point out that as an American citizen (as well as a German one) I have every right to be here, as I assume most of you do, too. I would simply like the hysteria that masquerades as informed debate to stop.
A version of this column appears in this week’s In Business Las Vegas, a sister publication of the Sun.
Discussion: 59 comments so far…
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Hey Nicole: Why do you feel that the top 10% deserve to be punish for being successful. Also you get what you pay for' This is true anywhere around the world. PS. I myself would fall into the 90% bracket!
A health care system started by Otto Von Bismark in 1870, I'm waiting for Sean Insannity to come out of the woodwork and call him a "socialist."
It is funny on how people who push for government healthcare point to a country and the truth comes out about the problems in the healthcare system for that country and they find a new country to promote as an example.
It once was Britain, then Canada, then Sweden and now it is Germany.
Germany health care costs are rising at a faster and faster rate and they are moving toward more and more to rationing or reducing benefits as a means of cost containment.
On average, German employees pay around 7% of their income for insurance premiums which is around $230 a month for a person who makes $40,000. In addition to that cost, there are co-pays.
In a German poll, 48% of Germans stated that they were dissatisfied with their healthcare.
In the same poll, 20% of Germanys reported experiencing excessive wait times (over 12 weeks) for care.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/24/32/51623...
Germans have a 6 month life advantage over the average American (which is a far more diverse population). Americans have a GDP per capita (PPP) that is $12,000 higher.
Over the course of our lifetime we will be exposed to an average of $919,200 more in wealth than the average German.
Given this, Americans are clearly better off. But of course, universal health care has no statistically significant bearing on human life expectancy. But it does result in higher taxes and less wealth for everyone.
PS why aren't the Democrats advocating features of the Swiss system? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB11954367...
Its market oriented and patient driven and they do the smart thing...if the poor can't afford insurance, the government gives THEM a small subsidy to go and buy it.
The swiss system isn't perfect, they do stupid stuff like we do like limit insurance competition and force people to buy coverage they do not want through costly mandates.
Socialized medicine works for Germans since they are programmed for nationalistic or socialistic programs anyway. Who gives a flip in Germany that a lot of a person's individual wealth is taken away from him to keep a malingerer well, and able to work, but won't?
No one. They're used to it. Fortunately, America is capitalistic, and people here pull their own weight.
hey gibby the clown...
does the think tank you work for take money from the insurance industry???
hmmm???
let the brilliant birdie make it real simple...
if you are not for the public option...
you are for bigger insurance company profits...
got that!!!
Why is this headline a comma splice? But teachers are being thrown under the bus because kids can't pass tests with such things on them?
"Who gives a flip in Germany that a lot of a person's individual wealth is taken away from him to keep a malingerer well, and able to work, but won't" Last time I was in Germany (long, long ago, and certainly not while I was in teaching) the people there were generally very industrious, and weren't being supported when they were able to work, but wouldn't. People being supported were those with disabilities, retired persons, etc. I think you have Germany confused with the U.S. It starts in school, where you get passed whether you learn anything or make any effort or not, because so many parents will pitch a fit, raise hell, cause all kinds of trouble, and threaten lawsuits otherwise.
"Over the course of our lifetime we will be exposed to an average of $919,200 more in wealth than the average German.
Given this, Americans are clearly better off."
Really? Maybe you ought to go live in Germany for a while. "Americans" are not clearly better off, but a handful of wealthy Americans are better off. That average is certainly not trickling down to me.
If you think Germans don't like their health care, ask them if they'd prefer the American system. I can guarantee you what the answer would be.
Thanks, Nicole. I love hearing all sides of a debate. I have never known one teacher that was thrown under a bus, for causing a student to punctuate ineffectively. Oh, they get shot, stabbed, and punched, but that is because of poor math scores, not English. I need to google more, flirt less. Now what did I do with that comma? Oh, I see it. Be careful around buses. I don't think Greyhound goes to Germany, but if it did, I would get a ticket to ride. And not walk in front of it. Frankly speaking, I hear they have better beer there. Maybe I could meet a fraulein, and study alternative medicine, and never see another doctor.
Europeans...including Germans...on average live in much smaller houses than Americans.
Even cars of the same make and model are on average are smaller in Europe.
The USA provides and spends the money to do so the defense of Europe.
The USA develops all the new medicine and medical procedures for most of the world.
If the Germans are doing so well then they should take over America's share of the budget for the UN, NATO, etc...
When a company does not make money that company will not survive. a goverment run insurance will put existing companys out of business. Then we will all be on the goverment plan.Basic economics. Stop being naive..
"Those too poor to afford insurance have it subsidized. The nation's health care spending is about 10 percent of its gross domestic product. By comparison, the United States' spending is 16.2 percent and rising. In 2007 and 2008, 86.7 million people were without insurance at some point, according to research by health care advocate Families USA."
What is the Percentage of poor people in Germany vs. the United States? I highly doubt the numbers are in the same ball park.
I have been to Germany and many other EU countries. I was quite surprised to see so many LESS FAT PEOPLE in Europe. The enormous cost to our health system is well recognized. I don't know what the comparisons would be for drug and cigarette use as well but that would also play a role in health cost. The more educated you are, the healthier you are, as a matter of statistics. I believe Germany is a more educated country as a whole.
Of the people who are uninsured in the United States, HALF are illegal aliens! Another HALF are uninsured by choice. How does that compare to Germany.
What! Spend money on health care? Are you crazy? There aren't at least 150 million Americans without health care yet . . .
SgtRock I highly recommend you read "The Geography of Bliss" by Eric Wiener. It will explain why Switzerland (and larger German culture) live in smaller houses, drive smaller cars and generally live less flashy lives.
yes, yes...
let's look to germany for their record of equal representation for all its people.
once again...
look at the ratio of smokers and fat people and fast food restaurants to THEIR population and then compare that percentage to OUR population.
national healthcare will never, ever work here.
silly liberals, tricks are for kids.
Lets compare apples to bowling balls. I wonder what the GDP per "citizens only" is for Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates as compared to us? I wonder if the houses are smaller also?
Anyone care to take a guess on these two?
Hi Sgt,
Now please be kind to Nicole, she did write a good article with all the facts, and then you have to reply with you usual cut and paste item..
Europeans...including Germans...on average live in much smaller houses than Americans.
THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS THAT THE AMERCANS HAVE BIGGER HOUSES THAN ANYONE ELSE.
Even cars of the same make and model are on average are smaller in Europe.
OF COURSE THE AMERICANS HAS BIGGER CARS THAN ANYONE ELSE, EVEN THE SAME MAKE AND MODEL IS BIGGER IN THE USA???????
The USA provides and spends the money to do so the defense of Europe.
THE WHOLE OF EUROPE IS ETERNALLY THANKFUL FOR THE WAY YOU CAME TO THE RESCUE OF THE WORLD, EVEN IF YOU WERE A FEW YEARS LATE ON BOTH OCCASSIONS, Still better late than never.
The USA develops all the new medicine and medical procedures for most of the world.
THE USA does not DEVELOPE ALL THE NEW MEDICINES AND MEDICAL PROCEDURE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD, and never have
If the Germans are doing so well then they should take over America's share of the budget for the UN, NATO, etc...
The only reason why you still have a small number of troops in Europe, is that you just cant be left out of it, no matter what it costs.The European countries DONT need the presence of US troops, so why not go home, Europe is quite capable of taking care of itself.
I dont believe that all Americans are so big headed as you are, but you sure do like to brag about how every thing in the USA is bigger, longer, larger, higher, fatter, more obese than any other country in the whole wide world. True or false???
Viper--you can't say that all the uninsured are either illegals or "by choice"--it's just not true. And we're paying for them anyway, by higher premiums, since they are forced to a high-cost emergency room for treatment.
I don't think a "National Health Care Plan" is going to happen here anytime soon. But we can and should be discussing a government-run public option, like an extension of Medicare to people who want to buy into it.
Who has more motive to deny care to one who needs it? The government? Or a corporation with a profit motive?
rayy...riight on. Agree 100 percent.
UDDABODA!
Being a Magnuson, I'm sure my name in the "old country" is a common as Smith is here. Say hi to my relly's. My Great Grandparents immigrated here, and lived to be nearly 100, both of them.
As for sgtNANCErck;
If I say I have a headache, nance will say "you do NOT have a headache. You kool-aid libs are always doing that. You have pain in your head you say you have a headache. DUH! What you really have is a sinus condition that is putting pressure on your nasal cavity, which in turn is exhibiting itself in the form of signals to your brain through your forehead, which you obama worshippers always call headaches. Many studies have proved this, but if you think all the experts are wrong and you are right, feel free!"
Interesting counter on your last post. Most interesting!
gmag, where from in Sweden.
One has to wonder whether the "no government", "no taxes", no "public services", "no compassion" crowd will ever admit that the U.S. has moved away from "your on your own pal" or "I have mine, and screw you if you don't" ideology since we entered the 20th century?
America is a better nation because we were able to adapt to the changes and challenges of the modern era.
I wonder if these ideologues will ever admit that the U.S. has adopted models of service and industry where the private sector co-exists with the public sector very profitably.
Ask yourself do we have public universities co-exisiting with private universities?
Do we have private hospitals co-existing with public hospitals?
Do we not have Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, all government run and funded working to sustain the needs of our people along side private insurance, pension and health care systems?
Keep in mind that today's opponents of these essential programs and health care reform and a public option made the exact same arguments to try to defeat these pograms.
Do students, the poor, the disabled, the widows, the farmers and corporations receive tax benefits and subsidies from the public tax system?
Do we have private and public correctional institutions?
Is there a private military component in Iraq working and serving along side our own military?
Do we have private and public security systems?
Are our roads built and run for profit by private companies along side the public road system?
Do we have a public K-12 school system that competes with private schools?
The rail system in this nation are both private and public.
Do we have public utility systems, such as the TVA, serving customers along side the profit -making utility system?
The air ways and communication system in this nation live side by side with private and public supported sytems.
Take a moment to think. Don't fall prey to the fear and disinformation provided by uninformed and narrow minded. Progress came to his nation and it's stronger and more compassionate because we rejected their ideology.
You will find even more examples of how this nation has found the balance between the public and private sector living side by side without being a socialist society.
By the way, I contend that those who keep ranting about socialism, can't define it in it's purist terms.
Since the start of the 20th sentury this nation has been able to withstand the ranting of those decrying "creeping socialism". It appears we have survived their empty claims and preserved our unique "capitalism and free enterprise system".
Nope teacher, Americans are on average better off than the Germans. GDP per capita is the best metric we have for that and it clearly shows that we have $12,000 more per person (and that is ppp which adjusts for costs across national boundries).
and $920,000 over the lifetime is a substantial amount of wealth.
As someone who lives literally on the other side of the planet, in Australia (but who watches CNN, Fox News et al and has been following this debate with interest in op-ed pieces on newspaper websites) I have to say some of these arguments about `socialised healthcare' are hysterical - death panels, squishing of indvidual rights etc. I also feel compelled to point out that Australia is also having a public debate about health care reform - we're worried about increasing obesity, an aging population, spiraling health care and drug costs (sound familiar?).
Unlike America, however, the discussion is focused on how to strengthen the socialised health care system - and everyone agrees it can be made better - there is no move afoot to dismantle Medicare, our public health insurance scheme - people are expecting it to be improved.
So how bad is socialised health care in Australia?
> We spend 9 per cent of the national GDP on health care or about $3,300 USD per person (AND remember, everyone is covered for health care here)
> Average life expectancy in Australia in 2008 is 81.63, (79.25 for men, 84.14 for women) number five among UN member states, according to the CIA world factbook - USA is #35 on this list.
> Federal and State governments pay about 67 per cent of all health care costs, remainder is met from the private sector through private health insurance firms.
> Australia has a diverse population - 25% were born overseas, although Aboriginal people lag behind the rest of the population in terms of life expectancy and infant mortality.
> All Australians contribute 1.5% of income to the Medicare Levy Surcharge to pay for public health insurance, which was introduced in 1984 to fund health care, but most health care funding comes from general revenues.
> Australia has a subsidised prescription medicine scheme (I pay about $20 USD per prescription I need, low income earners and pensioners pay about $3 USD).
> Australians can take up private health insurance in a competitive marketplace, for a range of services, from a range of providers (some are for profit, some are non-profit), and receive a government rebate of 30% for doing so.
> I pay $90 AUD/$75USD per month for private cover, because I choose too.
> Should we choose have private cover, we can receive treatment in a setting of our choosing and at time more suitable to our needs
> Waiting lists for surgeries such as hip, knee replacements is growing (due to aging population and obesity) however the Government is preparing a major reform of the system in a bid to improve it - whether it works or not will probably be how they are judged for their effectiveness.
And also - Australians are fat, eat too much junk food, drink too much beer and most of us (85%) live in cities, where we drive big cars (the Pontiac G8 is the most popular model sold here) on freeways between our jobs and our big houses in the suburbs - I've visited the states several times and have relatives there and I must say that there wasn't much difference on the lifestyle front between our two nations.
I don't necessarily think our system would transfer over to the states - our has evolved over 100 years to what it is, on a very different path to the US, I just feel compelled to point out that socialised health care is not the work of the devil, but it actually works, delivers a good outcome, and works much better than most of what I've seen (either first hand, from relatives or via the media) of health care in the United States.
socialism: here's a working definition for those who don't understand the anger, government control over our lives. We already have too much of this. Why should I pay for health care for the indolent, criminal, and lazy?
Mikegino, I am sorry to have to point out that your rage clouds your reason.
Most thinking Americans, like it not, acknowledge they are already paying for the health care of what you describe as "indolent, criminal and lazy". And that is before any health care reform of any kind.
Moreover, your definition of "Socialism" is all wrong. Your history teacher would be disappointed if that is all you gained from your history education.
Patrick,
Wealth is not everything in life, even if you Americans judge the size of wealth to show as a sign of happiness.
You should check out this site www.happyplanetindex.org
Costa Rica is nr 1 and the USA is down at nr 114 out of 143 countries across the planet
Makes interesting reading
freeanddeforme: First get rid of the fraud, waste, and abuse in the current system before you attempt to force or cajole us into another massive government program that will end up working about as well as the U.S Senate does. I'll stick with my working definition, thank you.
FREE........
Mike boy didnt do too well at history, nor does he have any compassion for mankind, its all self, self, self.
udde: why were there so many Danes, Norge, and Swedes in the Waffen SS?
oz
I'd like to acknowledge your facts. Thank you for taking time to "chime in" as we say. I'm one who likes to read more than talk. It's interesting that you comment it has "evolved over 100 years to what it is".
I am paying for a COBRA right now. The price keeps fluctuating yet gives us no greater coverage. I hate feeling I am at the whim of being charged whatever they feel like that month. When I first got out of work they sent me a bill for $922 usd a MONTH!!! I waffled as I felt that was exorbitant. I waited until the last weeks of eligibilty and got a notice from them. The notice reduced our costs to $322 usd a month. I paid 3 months ahead. Now I just got my new bill. It jacks it back up slightly yet I receive no extra cuts on deductibles nor benefits. I just hate being jacked around arbitrarily. It's hard to budget for something that changes like the wind. But with a family one hasn't much choice....
udde: I read in today's "The Local" that young Swedish males believe contracting Chlamydia proves their manliness. Wow, what a great outcome!
Please, everyone, take a deep breath - PLEASE!
The bottom line is you either believe in being selfish or selfless! So, all you me, Me, ME people out there need to know that the we, We, WE people GET THAT ABOUT YOU!
And the selfishness is the root of the problem!
No child chooses to be born, let alone born with a disease or disorder or into a dysfunctional family! One does not have to look very far to see how lucky they are to have been born an American...nor very much further to come to the conclusion that they, too, could have been born far less fortunate!
The only reasons we have not yet fixed Medicare, Medicaid or fully funded the V.A. is because of selfishness! It's all about the money and profit ratios in American business as we are a capitalistic system - which is fine as long as business does not become predatory!
And that's where the rub is - Healthcare, like way too many other businesses, has become a cruel predatory process to the point of being immoral, unethical and criminal! THIS MUST END!
I'm all for doing all we can to limit any form of waste, fraud or abuse! I'm all for refusing to make laziness and obesity and addictions in any way a legitimized medical problem worthy of subsided care - the lazy, fat and addicts should have to pay for their own medical care - or they can continue to spiral down to their own deaths!
I'm all for investing intelligently into education and preventative care - this is where we will first turn the corner in seriously limiting unhealthy life-style choices (and take away all of the addict's excuses)!
And I'm ONLY for Emergency Healthcare for tourists and non-citizens in an emergency (or an "emergent") situation - such care is needed to protect the population and demonstrate that we as Americans are truly compassionate - it's just the right thing to do!
As for illegal immigrants who clog up our hospital emergency rooms - I say treat them and deport them back to their home countries (and send the medical bills to their embassy (though we may not ever get paid), at least, we'll have a data-base of statistics to measure just how very compassionate Americans truly are!
WE MUST HAVE A PUBLIC OPTION! This is the only way we will keep Healthcare competitive and the costs down for all of us!
I say, provide a public option, fix Medicare and Medicaid and fully fund the Veteran's Administration - in that way, everyone can keep whatever private plans they have, and everyone else has all the options they need to live a healthy life!
BTW: I'm fully covered by the V.A., but voluntarily pay into Medicare and Medicaid (though I'll probably never, ever need to use these programs) because I strongly believe that everyone should have healthcare!
Here is a look at the population of Nations that the USA is consistently compared to in terms of Government sponsored (socialized) health care.
USA 307 million
Canada 31 million (health care is broken into Providences)
Great Britain 61 million
Germany 82 million
How can you compare apples to grapefruits?
Oh, and "WHO" should pay for all of this? Well, of course, my answer is "THE WEALTHIEST AMERICANS" - the poor, lower middle-class, middle class, and upper middle-class have paid all they can - (and then some) - it's past time for the most fortunate and wealthiest in our society (the top 1% to 5%) to step up and do the right thing!
PORTER1ROCKWELL:
After reading your post, it seemed a bit odd to me that you were initially being charged $922/month for COBRA, then this was suddenly reduced to $322/month. I got out my calculator and found that your $322/month is 35% of $922 which seems to explain it: you were probably laid off from your job sometime after 9/1/2008, and you therefore became eligible for the "COBRA premium reduction program", which is part of the Obama administration's economic stimulus program. If this is the case, what will happen is that 65% of your $922/month COBRA premium will be subsidized for 9 months. If you don't get other insurance, guess what happens after 9 months? Your premium reverts back to $922/month!
You can get more info on the COBRA premium reduction program here:
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq-cobra-p...
Since you mentioned that you have a family and that you need to budget accordingly, you should be aware of what will likely be coming down the road so that you can plan for it.
Dawg
Yes you are correct.I chose not to use the word stimulus as that seems to signal to some people a broad range of "welfare to slackers" or otherwise. Been out of work for 2/3 of that time. Now I guess I just wait for it to click up. See folks, some of it did go to people that have worked all their lives and paid into the system. Now if I can just figure out how to pay for it.
Dawg
BTW thanks for the coherent info. Read the info and seems much easier to comprehend than what my ex employer/ insurer sent.
"Viper--you can't say that all the uninsured are either illegals or "by choice"--it's just not true. And we're paying for them anyway, by higher premiums, since they are forced to a high-cost emergency room for treatment."
It's easy to make that stop. Place an ICE agent or cop in these buildings, whenever anyone comes in for non life threatening treatment, they must prove US citizenship. If they can't, on to the bus they go. If it is life threatening, we stabilize, than verify citizenship, if not a citizen we will humanely transport the individual to their country of origin. That alone would eliminate most of the waste, and the hospitals would not lose the money they have been.
People with actual experience living under other (better) health systems: Thank you for trying to tell us how it works in other countries. The Yahoos who are pulling their hair out because the Republicans and crazies have scared them probably won't listen but at least they've been exposed to the truth. Hope and pray for us!
People get wealthy by exploiting other people or exploiting natural resources that should belong to everyone in the country.
Stock appreciation ONLY occurs because a company is making lots of money by exploiting people.
Real Estate may appreciate, but most homeowners are middle class and new homeowners have to pay the high cost of mortgages. When you look at the combined cost of interest and principal NOBODY makes money on real estate.
Yes, wealthy people exploit and should be higly taxed.
I am very happy with my private insurance. The proposed Health Insurance by the President sounds promising and I am willing to VOTE YES to this insurance if ALL of US, including the President, US Senators and the US Congressmen will have the same insurance, and the same coverage and the same deductions, waiting and all the trappings of a good insurance. If they all agree to be under this NEW Health Coverage, then that is good enough for me. What do you think Nevadans and Mr. Reid?
pepsy4u--The President, senators and congressmen are insured under the same system as any federal employee. I don't think you want everyone in the country under that one system--that would be too expensive and unnecessary. For example you say you are happy with your private insurance. Fine, me too, and apparently about 85% of Americans. If you figure at least 5% are going to opt out of anything, which the Pres. has already said, that means that what they're trying for is a way to get insurance for that remaining 10% that is financially doable. At the same time they would be and I think will be putting in safeguards for all of us that prevent insurance companies from denying us coverage, raising our rates too much or cutting us off. I'm hoping just about everyone can agree on that last part.
jw456: why do the remaining 10% require a new system that will cost $1 Trillion? This may come as a complete surprise to you, but we don't have $1 Trillion to crap away anymore. The party is over and its time to turn out the lights and shoot the fat lady. The Democrats and their Fellow Traveler Bush have broken the bank.
Ok, we will never agree on anything given the terror which has been thrust upon the public. We need some stuff - like banning the open carrying of arms in some of these public assemblies. Someone is going to get seriously hurt if we can't be calmer and more concerned about solving the problems of those who are dying because of the decisions of the profit motivated health insurance companies. We also need to provide for all so we join the rest of the developed world. And how about this - be concerned that all of the public has access to reasonable care. I hope the Democrats pull together and pass a plan despite the sniggling of the Republicans and their obviously stilted rhetoric which often comes directly from the scripts of the insurance companies. Go and look at the Bill Moyer's shows and their dialogue for instance the most recent one that talks about two who died who didn't have coverage and because of that received care somewhat tardily. Ok, so hope that Obama stands up - his ratings are going down because of the wonderful job he is doing and because he is trying to reverse the trashing of America orchestrated by VP Cheney. Ok, this is going over the edge. Pray for the health of all! Amen.
MIKE,
Why so many Scandinavians were members of the Waffen, I dont know, it was way before my time, but it is STILL a blurr on the history of these countries.
jw456 - you are mistaken if you think these politicians will be on the same insurance as we all are. After spending over 20 years in the USNavy, my FREE (promised - not free anymore) Tricare Insurance and private insurance, COMBINED,will not even come close to what these politicians are receiving for FREE. There are also many programs in the Federal Governments and they differ between the Politicians, Post Office, INS, Veterans Hospitals, etc. I am aware of these 'coz alot of my acquaintances works for different branches of the government. We do not have the same coverage, not even close.
This could be you, or your wife, or your mother, or your sister, six months from today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT_2GjSkz...
I want the same health care that Ted Kennedy is getting but I don't want the same treatment that Mary Jo got!
SARAKLEON,
So, other countries with a NHS have smaller population, whats your point. Everybody is always pointing out just how rich the USA is, the highest this, and that, and sometimes the other. If the USA can wage wars on the other side of the world, then surely it can spend a few $$$$$$$ on healthcare. hmmmmm
If the dems ram this through they have guaranteed one thing, they will lose the house, senate, and presidency. Everyone needs to remember that a politicians only goal is to be re-elected. The truth is folks, these are not corporate supported mobs, terrorists, etc... at these town halls. These are the Americans who are usually silent (aka the silent majority) who have been awaken by the left. I know the dems will say BHO said he isn't concerned about a second term... BS, anyone with a pulse knows this is another outright lie. Just look at Nevada, Reid has his foot out the door and another on a banana peel, Titus the same, the polls are showing that. These people do not care about us at all, it's all about keeping their job. I fully believe health care, insurance whatever reform it is to be called today is dead, it will not pass.
udde: Uncle Sam also has one of the highest national debts. Our national credit card is maxed out and the Chinese are getting ready to cancel our credit line. There's an old saying among the bar girls in Asia, "No money, no honey!"
Do you think Sweden would grant political asylum to Obama?
MIKE, Sure send him over, your loss would be our gain.
The same five or six writers respond to practically every post about the economy or healthcare reform. Their remarks are always the same -- and are, besides always being negative, usually absurd. Trying to bring these people back to rationale discussion is a fruitless endeavor. They cannot understand anything but their own ramblings because they lack either the will, the desire or both to understand anything but their own juvenile scribbling.
Are there legitimate concerns about healthcare reform? Yes. But nothing these Sun-loons regurgitate is reality based. If one wants to educate oneself about the issues, ignore their baseless screeds and go elsewhere online to find out information about the proposals before Congress and the American people. There are enough websites that have information expressed in a cogent and concise format.
To you, team of loonies, keep up the work you are doing. Perhaps our citizenry will recognize through your efforts that in addition to healthcare, more needs to be done in the field of education to make sure that our country isn't saddled with the likes of you going forward.
OMG, Patrick. Can you get it that more dollars per year and "better off" are not the same thing? Is it that hard to grasp?
So much hysteria, so little truth.
1st I am curious what people consider to be a fair share for the wealthy to pay. Top earners in New York City pay 58% of there income in taxes. The top 50% income earners in the country pay 90% of the taxes. I am unsure how much more we can shift the balance to them. Look at the number of English who move to America due to taxes at the detriment of the UK's tax revenues.
The part that was mentioned at the end of the piece is probably the most important. German doctors make 1/3 less but pay less in malpractice insurance. Without Tort reform, we will be never see a reduction in costs or an end to defensive medicine. The trial lawyers are a huge bloc in the Democratic party so I would not look for it in any Dem Plan. The Republicans like to think they have the insurance companies but in reality the insurance companies like the way things they are now so they can charge exhorbitant rates to "defend" against the "leeches".
I like the private vs. public examples. I would point out that there are some differences and where the compete on a level field government services get trounced and are habitually in debt. Post Office, Medicare, VA, Fannie Mae/freddie Mac. They plan before congress now is extremely restrictive and states clearly that changes in private plans will make you go to the government plans
Finally I am tired of this whole selfless vs. selfish nonsense. I am selfish. I have a wife and 2 daughters whose well being is more imprtant to me than the other 306,999,996 people in america. Todays times do not breed confidence in the economy and the thought of 1 trillion dollars in debt that will devalue the dollar is terrifying. If all the liberals are so selfless why don't they pay the tax they feel they need to. There is no law prohibiting people from over paying there tax. Any takers? Did not think so. It is so easy to be selfless with other peoples money.
I do hope this debate will remain civil, but I doubt it.