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Don’t pay disposal fee on old AC compressor units
Residential and light commercial air conditioning unit compressors from a local air conditioning company are dumped at Silver Dollar Recycling in Las Vegas.
Saturday, Aug. 22, 2009 | 2 a.m.
The Smiths slept on their living room floor last week, a family of four camping in the coolest part of the house while they argued with an air-conditioning company about repairs.
The problem was the compressor, a critical component that does what it sounds like: compress coolant. The repair company, Air Pro Master, insisted the family pay $180 to have the compressor specially disposed of, claiming it contained hazardous materials.
The Smiths believed the fee was nonsense. Local air-conditioning experts agree.
“Nevada has no such disposal regulations,” said Blake Ballard, president of the Southern Nevada Air Conditioning Refrigeration Service Contractors Association. “Charging this type of a fee to a homeowner without justification would appear to us to be nothing more than a scam.”
But the Smiths were stuck with Air Pro, the contractor hired by their home warranty company. And they were sweltering. So they gave in, made the appointment and put up one last fight — just as the repairman was ready to leave.
You can call my manager, the repairman said after he was questioned about the fee.
The manager explained to Craig Smith, who asked that an alias be used for fear of retaliation, that he couldn’t even have the compressor in his car without a license from the Environmental Protection Agency. The manager, a man named Andre who later refused to give his last name to the Sun, then claimed the EPA was “cracking down” on companies like his, and that he faced a “huge, huge fine” if he let Smith have his used compressor.
“I can’t take the risk,” Andre said.
Smith signed away the $180, grudgingly.
In August Clark County residents can’t afford to ignore air-conditioning repairs, no matter what they cost. They are not just at the mercy of specialized technicians, they’re at the mercy of the desert.
“How many is this happening to?” Smith wondered.
There’s no way of really knowing. The Nevada Consumer Affairs Division, a state agency that used to investigate business fraud complaints, was shuttered in June because of budget cuts. Nobody at the Nevada State Contractors Board, which can discipline licensed contractors for fraud, could remember investigating this kind of complaint. Metro Police say they haven’t investigated any cases either.
But call around to local air-conditioning repair companies and you’ll hear that tales of technicians collecting the disposal fee are common in the industry. Moreover, take a tour of Clark County’s metal recycling yards, and you’ll see air-conditioning compressors piled up — sold for scrap at about 5 cents a pound. People are actually paid to get rid of used compressors.
When the Sun asked Andre of Air Pro whether charging clients a disposal fee was a scam, he objected, insisting that the compressor contains Freon, which must be specially handled.
But Ballard says there is no way to remove or change a compressor without also removing a majority of the refrigerant inside. The EPA recognizes whatever refrigerant might be left behind is “de minimus” — so minute it’s not worth regulating.
In other words, Ballard said, you could throw a used compressor in the garbage without fear.
Consumers who feel like they are being scammed by licensed air-conditioning contractors can file a complaint with the State Contractors Board. But since the Smiths haven’t filed a complaint, at least not yet, no one is investigating this particular case.
The EPA can fine companies that mishandle refrigerants, releasing Freon into the air, for example. And there is a fee to dispose Freon, which is collected in a separate tank when compressors are replaced. The chemical contents of that tank, not the compressor, cost about $5 for a company to properly dispose of, Ballard said.
“There is no law that requires any kind of special disposal of a compressor that no longer contains refrigerant,” Ballard said. “And it’s impossible to remove a compressor from a system without removing the refrigerant.”
Smith knew this. He had friends who did air-conditioning work, and they told him as much.
But Air Pro wouldn’t budge. So the family is sleeping in their own beds again, air-conditioned and angry.
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A friend of my son, who does AC repair work was telling me that some of these companies who are called out to repair AC's tell the customer regardless of what is wrong with the AC unit that they need a new unit which would cost over $2 grand in most cases. Even if they just need to have coolant added to their lines which would cost around $100, the owner of some of these AC companies train their repair men to tell the customer that a new unit is needed. Taking advantage of people seems to be a going trend when the consumer has no way of checking up on the service companies reason of why their AC unit is not working. He told me that the consumer should have 3 to 4 companies come out to get different scenarios and quotes. Hopefully one will get an honest company.
Everyone that has become a victim of this scam should file a complaint. The companies will be fined and made to pay restitution.
The Smith's should simply take Air Pro to small claims court demanding return of the $180 and let AirPro justify this expense to the judge. I have disposed of several refrigerators and I simply cut the coils and the freon escapes. That has saved me a disposal fee several times.
there are many sites online that give the consumer necessary information about home a/c units; how to trouble shoot, what to look for, and explain in simple words the working parts involved. when my unit stopped last month, it was on a weekend where a repairman demands double or triple for a service call, money up front before he even looks at it. i turned off the main power switch to the unit and took off the service panel. the contactor that controls the compressor and condenser fan looked good so i turned the power back on. when the wife turned on the thermo for cool the contactor engaged but no action from the comp/con fan. i noticed a dual stage capacitor was wired in between the contactor and the motors. i turned power off, removed the capacitor, picked up a new one {$35}monday afternoon ,installed and we were chilling by 4pm. full cool baby!
i forgot to add that you should clean your condenser {thats the item with the fins} just before summer. use a water hose w/ a nozzle to remove the accumilated dirt and debris and make sure you dont bend the fins. check your air filter more often also as air flow in the house will pick up more dust.
There is another option when you are scammed. Burn the business to the ground, but that might get you in trouble with the EPA!
So readers...how about sending in the names of air conditioning companies that CAN be trusted so that the consumer can choose? That would be a great way to get the scammers to change their tune!
NV Energy has a social responsibility here. So does the NV Energy Office. The problem? Stupidity or lack of information.
A good energy auditor could have detected the difference between a system shy of refrigerant and a pile of junk.
An aggressive and socially responsible energy office would have a phone line and a savvy expert to read between the lines and offer helpful solutions.
When ya skimp, ya suck eggs. Pay for services and ya survive off the common wisdom of your brighter fellows.
It's not socialism; it's protection from thieves with glib tongues and a desert to do their dirty work!
HVAC repair companies are like plumbing companies. We usually don't call them until there is an "emergency." They have the upper hand. Publicity is the key. Encourage people who have these types of troubles to write the news outlets with specifics and the company name. Someone might pick up the story. These types of companies are like insects. They run for cover when the sunlight hits them.
Oh. I'm sorry, my fellow Nevadans, I must have been dreaming when I wrote that post.
I seemed to forget that this is the Nevada of Jim Gibbons and John Ensign, where service to our constituents has become optional, getting re-elected is the biggest thing since buffalo, and no taxes!
I hesitate to post this for fear of being accused of working for the company, but I have used a company called Right Now Air for a couple of years now and they have been fantastic.
I have had them out to my home on a couple of occasions, they fix what is broken and don't try to sell me a new unit (although my old one is about 14 years old and I know the day is coming.) They also did an inspection of my duct work and I expected them to come back and say I needed some work with that, but they said everything looked great.
Silversun slipped it to us so subtly.
The truth is that here on the desert, we're not just a little vulnerable.
Silver... said,"Someone might pick up the story."!!!
Accurate picture. Our best chance at justice, fair-trade and integrity rests in some remote possibility of the story of our rape finding its way to some journalist whose sense of intrigue or romance is so inclined as to bring to light of day the plight of the many souls who remain clueless as to how to restore some equity to this situation where our voices are meaningless noises.
We all thought that this democracy was ours and was working. Why don't they do what they said they wanted to do? We had a deal.
Is their word so worthless? This is our time. Waste no more on the frauds. Next.
The company lied or at least stretch the truth beyond reason. Fraud is punishable by criminal statute and should be used here.
Just went thru this with my Mom's house - she is 82 -- with a home warranty - total time without ac 7 days - #1 Plumbing and Heating tried the disposal scam but I fought them on it - first they said Nevada requires it and then that the Home Warranty Company required it - finally they gave up. They sent a tech at 9PM to replace the compressor - He was on the roof to 12:30AM after working since 6AM that day!!! It worked for about 10 hours and then blew again. Guess what they replaced the wrong part and had to return to replace the condenser motor - still have a call into them because they left the door wide open to the circuit breaker box on the AC.
Followup - First company sent by warranty co said her compressor was (1)not bolted down (2) had a grounded compressor- I had the people I use (Deke's AC goand check it (1) It was bolted down (2) The compressor was locked not grounded (3) had a bad condenser motor - Bad condenser motors can lock compressors and eventually damage them.
First plumbing replaced Compressor - it worked a day and then they had to replace the condenser motor - also part came in on Tuesday and they made my Mom wait till 9PM wed to do the repair - which only lasted 10 hours
Republic Services charges around $35 bucks if you take your old a/c to the dump. I am sticking up for this company but why isn't everybody pissed at Republic Services as well. Thanks to the County Commissioners they have a MONOPOLY on all garbage.
jlb101- that's not only stupid, it is illegal
These guys are the 2nd highest paid trade in the nation and want to keep it that way with protectionism. A regional wholesale supplier that shall not be named will not even sell to you unless you are a tech. A Tech? I am a builder who sees their proprietary stamp throughout the industry. One question; would they hesitate for a moment when it comes to taking your work as a remodeler? Heck no. They would go and build it as shoddy as they could get away with and use the system to their advantage all the while running protectionist scams on you and I in their industry.They are lucky I don't have the time nor the money to file a class action. They try hard to limit your ability to acquire their proprietary parts, laugh at you if you ask "technical" questions yet don't think twice about stealing your work if the shoe is on the other foot. Thank goodness there are sites on the internet that have some common sense "technical" people that believe that free enterprise and wherewithal still count for something.I hate the arguement "well they went to tech school and should be compensated" Well, we went to "tech" school too. But do we try to limit their ability to purchase building materials at say Home Depot?
I had a friend who recycles scrap take the compressor begrudgingly left behind by #1 Plumbing & Heating and he got paid to dispose of it
I want to know why the AG is not investigating this criminal behavior? These companies should be fined and then shut down. The state can and does license and regulate these businesses. The AG office needs to do its job.
I got some bids on new HVAC equipment/appliances.
on the internet in less than one second, I found out that my stuff retails for $1495. Installed price: $11,500. For the math challenged that's ten grand and a five dollar bill. Took most of two days to get it runnin' right.
ER docs make around $150 to $200 an hour.
HVAC docs fetch several times that.
Pretty shiny gig, huh?
Good reporting. Sex, lies and freon, what a town. Just don't inhale, I say. I was stuck without utilities when the kids backed a moving van up to our house and cleaned us out, one weekend when we were camping.The son, Jason, pawned his own mother's wedding ring. I pooled some cash with the mother, we bought a cheap mh. and spent xmas in the parking lot at Railroad pass, then when it got hot, we poured water over our heads, hey, it worked, and if I could have gotten the generator to work, i would have put wet towel over a fan, for a cool breeze, anyone ever use water and a fan? It's kind of third world. Finally, got the million dollar inheritance back for the woman, and all I got was a lousy t-shirt, the best is yet to come.
Now that we know that the disposal fee is a scam can we take the firms that took them to court and get our money back?
If you don't want regulation or government intervention, you get what you pay for. Why do you think the scammers flock to Nevada? Our AG's office is so inundated, you can get away with a lot here. Unless the media investigates, little gets done.
EPA certified techs are are supposed to recapture the freon before disconnecting the lines. The sad thing is, even if Nevada wanted to regulate freon releases and freon certification, only the Federal EPA (not NDEP or CCAQ) has the jurisdiction to regulate freon...from Region 9 in San Francisco! The EPA's website has a complaint form...USE it please.
The previous posts of online ratings for A/C companies is the best way to weed out scammers. Beware: when investigated, they close up and open shop under different company names like the scum-sucking cowards they are.
A final note: home warranty companies frequently use the cheapest A/C (and other contractors). Complaints about their repair "professionals" are rampant. Ask for their freon cert cards. Watch everything they do--take pictures! I had a pool filter repair that was botched and cost me $670 to replace. I will never pay for a home warranty again!
Interestingly I read one of the above and he recommended RightNowAir. I also highly recommend them. I have used them for a few years now and there techs are knowledgeable and efficient. I took a contract with them and twice a year they come out and inspect and test my unit. This last time he found a problem and fixed it to improve the air flow. To my amazement it was part of the service and didn't cost me anything extra. With the contract they also guarantee 24 hour response to any problem and special discounts. Check them out they are great.
Consumer protection is not dead in NV. Google up the Nevada Attorney General's website. There is a link right on the front page for their Consumer Protection department. You can file your complaint right on the site.
I put a stop that way to a similar scam from an HVAC repair contractor, who charged me $268 for a $25 furnace igniter. You can indeed assume that if it happened to you, that company has serialized the ripoff and needs to be stopped.
The newspaper story makes for a pretty costly $180 receipt for Air Pro, huh? Prolly just had been better off being honest on your job guys...
Ooops! Upon check of that link, it indeed states that the funding for the AG's consumer protection division was cut. WHAT A JOKE!
They provide this link for possible help with a company fraud sitation;
http://fightfraud.nv.gov
Also, write the govenor if you want the NV Consumer Protection department reopened. Every state has it, it is an essential tool in today's dishonest economy. Attn; Jim Gibbons at -
http://gov.state.nv.us/Contact_Us_SOUTHX...
-
It sounds like these companies did supply a service to these customers. Last time I checked companies are allowed to charge whatever they want and it is up to us the consumer to DECIDE whether or not we want to pay their price.
vegaswinner
It's not much different than the gouging your doctor or emergency room visit does. You don't get a price for services unforseen from them do you? It's about FAIR VALUE which this ain't. It's about taking advantage of you because you have no other option in your (my) mind.
vegaswinner: You be work for one of these companies! Stealing from your customers is theft! All of these scams will be exposed.
No but when you go to dinner that company paid much less for the ingredients but you pay for the service of not having to cook and shop for it yourself.I just bought a computer monitor and there was a disposal fee on the receipt when I made the purchase. Tires, Oil changes, Lawyers charge $4 to $6 dollars per page to receive a fax.
It's just common sense we all have choices on where to buy food,gas,toys,appliance repairs,car repairs it's called a free enterprise! I shop around on any of these items. I buy groceries at Walmart over other stores because I have found them to be cheaper. I get gas a 7-11 buy my work due to a cheaper price than other gas stations.
There are 100's companies in each industry so find the ones you like and respect and buy from them.
The president SNARSA Blake Ballard stated that you can safely throw your compressor in your trash can?So after i change my car oil i can probably do the same why spend the money or the time to recycle it properly.
this link clearly explains evrything about compressor disposal
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/disp...
Biker, wow that is some great information, so this is not a scam as suspected just a fee for a service the company provided. Thanks
Maybe it is Blake Ballard we need to question.
Ballard is correct, Biker is wrong! The link Biker supplied deals with disposing of old appliances that CONTAIN refrigerant, NOT with disposing of old compressors that have ALREADY had the refrigerant removed. Biker must be ignorant of the requirement that old air conditioning compressors are required to be sealed before disposal. Once they are sealed, it is the same as disposing of scrap metal. It is NOT the same as throwing away used motor oil. Apples and oranges here.
As someone that is EPA certified to handle refrigerants and worked over 20 years in the HVAC business I can confirm Ballard is the expert here. Biker probably just doesn't understand what he is reading on the EPA's website or is not paying attention.
jlb101, it is illegal for you to cut the lines and let out the refrigerant. Very illegal, very wrong, and very stupid. Read the EPA's opinion near the bottom.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout...
Also, please note both in the link above and in the link Biker gave (if you read far enough) that the EPA says that disposal is okay in landfills (if permitted locally). It is permitted locally here, and the only time Republic Services charges the $35 is when the refrigerant has not already been removed from a SMALL APPLIANCE, not an air conditioning compressor that has been removed from an A/C unit.
Pay attention to the article, people. 1-Some bad companies are charging a scam fee and the homeowner has to use them because that is who their home warranty says they have to use. Otherwise they pay for the entire repair. 2-Some home warranty companies are allowing their contractors to scam the customers. 3-The companies that are charging the scam fees are not paying to get rid of the compressors, they actually get paid to turn in the compressors for scrap metal.
Thanks, Ms. Abigail Goldman for writing the article. And thanks to vegasphotog for the additional info. The price of being ignorant or uneducated is that we just get taken advantage of. No more!
I am so sick of being taken by these so-called home warranty companies. I paid $200 for a compressor disposal fee in June when it was 108 and I had no choice but to pay. They take your money, come up with every excuse in the book to not make repairs, and hire nothing but the worst companies that then just scam us home owners and do horrible quality work. It is about time the AG got off their butts and went after the scammers. The Nevada State Contractor's Board needs to do an investigation. Complain to the BBB like I did, and I will now file a complaint with the contractor's board.
vegasphotog
The link does not only talk about refrigirant.Also about the oil that is left in these compressors.And from what i understand even when you take all the refrigirant out there is still alot of oil left. Im sure it is not ok to throw it in your trash.Here is some textfrom EPA on what you will be putting in you trash can.
What are the Dangers of Used Oil, Mercury, and PCBs?
If improperly disposed, used oil from refrigerated appliances can result in the release of dissolved ODS refrigerant and groundwater contamination. In addition, short-term exposure to used oil can cause skin, eye, and respiratory irritation; in the long-term, it can cause cancer and damage to the liver, brain, immune system, and reproductive system.
When released to the environment, mercury accumulates in the tissues of plants and animals and, when consumed by humans, impairs neurological development and causes other problems associated with the nervous system.
PCBs are toxic substances with carcinogenic and non-cancerous effects on humans, including effects on the immune system, reproductive system, nervous system, and endocrine system.
I would NOT recommend Gibson Air Conditioning...
File a complaint? If I found out I was scammed I'd give this "Andre" doosh the chance to give back the 180 or put it towards dental work. Unbelievable how some scum treat decent people.
a little more than a month ago , my home warranty people sent out Hawthorne to replace the compressor on my AC , they told me it would be 150 dollars for the disposal of the compressor, I IMMEDIATELY took offense and called City Hall and asked about laws regarding compressor disposal at which time I was told to tell Hawthorne to go pound sand.I even called a few other companies and were told YEP 150.00 is about average.
I called Hawthorne and told them I would NOT be paying , they told me by regulation they could not replace the compressor in that case, so I told them OK Id pay, after the compressor was replaced and the freon in the old compressor recaptured ( BTW ALL AC companies remove the freon from the old compressors and install it into the new ones)I then told the technician to leave the compressor in the garage and I would NOT pay the 150 dollars demanded by the company,
Hawthorne was NOT happy about my not paying their scam fees but after the compressor waqs replaced what were they to do except stomp off and accept it.
MY advice from experience, tell them SURE ILL pay , let them change the compressor then tell them to pound sand .
NOW that being said do NOT allow them to take the compressor with them and if they insist on doing so you may find yourself with a legitimate bill for disposal.
Simply have them place it in the garage IF they insist on taking the compressor with the plan of billing you later siply tell them you will call the police and report them of theft of the compressor.
HAPPY COOLING!
Vegaawinner writes :It sounds like these companies did supply a service to these customers. Last time I checked companies are allowed to charge whatever they want and it is up to us the consumer to DECIDE whether or not we want to pay their price.
Yes they supplied a service to the customers and were paid for the service however they are NOT allowed to LIE and use deceit to further charge for services that are unnecessary thats called FRAUD!
Vegaswinner writes : Biker, wow that is some great information, so this is not a scam as suspected just a fee for a service the company provided. Thanks
Maybe it is Blake Ballard we need to question.
it IS a scam when the consumer is told its MANDATORY for them to dispose of the compressor and the fee is 150-200 dollars . Its not the compressor that fall under the EPA regulations its the freon and they sutomatically recapture that before removing the lines, its a recoverable material they can use and charge another for.
it is ALWAYS a scam when one is saying its THE LAW you have NO choice when in fact its NOT , simply put its FRAUD
So this is how it is?
It's ok to cook up a scam, spread it throughout the industry, hose desperate people and claim environmental reasons.
With our government nearly as responsive as Somalia's to the needs of the people, can you really blame the HVAC docs for their gouging campaign?
Why would anyone expect more ethics from a Nevadan?
nice job, elenaj! sounds like they put your compresser to the side while they finished. you might have had a problem if you told them not to take it before they put the new one in.
Talk about companys NOT to use SAHARA AIR
about 3 months ago they came out to my house my ac was not working.After 1 hour in my attic the tech
came out and told me my system is old and beyond repair and gave me a price of 8,500 for new high efficiency system.I simply did not have the money,so icalled around for second opinion.Ended up being some small part paid $210 still working. NOW THATS A SCAM.
Volo, Blake Ballard is the expert used in this article, he is the owner of Sahara Air. So I now question his motives in this matter?
biker
I doubt that you are intentionally being misleading, but you have an obvious lack of understanding of what is really at issue here, as evidenced in your reading of the EPA materials. Do more research or gain more understanding of the process required to remove and dispose of a compressor. I worked in that field for over 20 years and obtained the certifications and education to be able to comment on it, have you?
Compressors in these types of A/C systems have to be taken to asmospheric pressure to be removed. Under the EPA guidelines they then classify as having the refrigerant removed. Period. They have to be brazed shut and are hermetically sealed.
http://www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/1995/August/D...
To save you having to read through things that perhaps are outside your area of expertise, here is a direct quote from the above.
"EPA has stated in applicability determination #23 and in the preamble to the initial regulations (58 FR 28677) that after an appliance is reduced to atmospheric pressure, the refrigerant entrained in the oil is not subject to those regulations."
The oil remaining in the compressor is mineral oil, and EPA allows normal disposal of a sealed compressor that contains mineral oil. The concerns you cite above with regard to PCBs, mercury, etc. have to do specifically with the IMPROPER disposal of refrigeration appliances, NOT with a removed and sealed compressor.
The recycling companies cannot and will not accept hazardous waste of the nature you imply. From your comments are we all really supposed to believe that the reporter is wrong, the expert she cites is wrong, the recycling companies are wrong, but the guys at Air Pro who are scamming the homeowners (and you) are right?
Do you really think these scammers are charging a legitimate fee? Call around, the reporter obviously did. Ask 5 reputable HAVC companies if these "fees" are legitimate or required. You will find that they all will tell you the same thing. These fees are a scam and anybody that defends them is probably in on the scam too.
Haul away and disposal fees are common in the home warranty company industry,and if done properly they are very well justified. These fees are usually charged to the customer. Companies charge differently for these fees depending on the type of equipment but must adhere to home warranty companie's pre determined price guidelines.
Haul away and disposal fees include the proper disposal of recaptured refrigerant and the proper disposal of the old equpment.
As far as compressors are concerned;
Compressors can not be put in the trash, Repulic services does not provide pick up for compressors, only for units for a fee!These compressors must be taken to the them.
It would be completly irresponsible to allow this compressors to end up in the dupm with our residential trash.
This compressors weight an average of 60lbs, wich will make it very difficult to "throw a used compressor in the garbage without fear"
If a comapny is being environmantally responsible, the compressors would be sealed to avoid unwanted oil spills and this oil should be removed and contained before being send to the recycling yard. Also these compressors are not easy to handle and can be located anywere from floor level to a 2 story rooftop most of the time in over 100F degree heat.
The recycling yard will pay an average of $2.00 per compressor, so you have 2 choices, dedicate an area in your business for a container to be picked up on a regular basis or drive them to the yard yourself, and yes pay for gas, employee time and vehicle wear and tear!
If you contact companies that don't work for the Home warranty industry they will say that they do not charge for this. Well, at an average of $1850.00 per compressor replacement this service is most definetly included in the price.
The customer should never feel forced to accept this fees. The customer is informed of this fees by thre contractor and their home warranty company before the equipment is even ordered. If they do not agree to the charges they can ask for a different company or request a cash out and hire their own contractor. There are a lot of of HVAC contractors in this town.
I dont know exactly wath happened in this particular case with this contractor and costumer and I'm not trying to defend them it just seem unfair to paint all HVAC contractors with the same brush and I find it very irresponsible of The Sun to advize their reader to not pay for this fee instaed of advising them to find out wath this fee actually pays for.
As far as Blake Ballard, president of the Southern Nevada Air Conditioning Refrigeration Service Contractors Association. He needs to be ousted from his position and should look into his own practices with Sahara Air.
The process of properly disposing of refrigerant and equipment is an extremely labor intensive expensive process it will be a lot easier and less expensive to not care about our environment.
This is totally bogus and a ripoff!
I am an a/c tech and have been working in Las vegas for 7 years for 3 different companies. The first one i quit because they wanted me to charge the customers bogus fees and tell them their unit wasn't properly maintained and then even charge them more. The second one i was fired because they tried to make me do the same thing and i wouldn't. i don't get paid as much now but i can sleep at night.
these fees are a ripoff. these companies don't have to pay anyone to get rid of this stuff. they get paid for the scrap and they still rip off the customer.
i think the 2 or 3 guys that are giving such a hard time must work for AirPro or someone else. they are trying too hard to make it seem okay and it isn't. shame on them and the other ripoff dishonest theifs that just keep charging bogus fees and lying to the customer. they give all the a/c companies a bad rep.
Just because tou don't agree with the procedures does not mean that they are not needed. I'm afraid to ask what you did with the old refrigerant and equipment. 3 companies in 7 years? sounds more like a change in career would be appropiate.
People have a right to accept or refuse any service due to any reason not only price, last I checked this is how our economy works.
I want to thank vhv73, tech_on and vegas photog for four in a row! I learn so much from honest people who actually do know what they're talking about and choose to give their own time to lay it out for all of us to see.
Your benevolence and respect for our little planet are showing.
I think it is a scam that the RJ and Sun charge $500 for a 20 word advertisement. Everyone is entitled to a profit for their efforts in doing business. The insurance company does not want to pay so the companies doing their work are forced to charge the client to make a small profit. For their $55 deductible and $400 a year the consumer got a $2,000 job done. Whaaaaa Pay $2,000 and I promise the company would dispose of the compressor for free.
vhv73
Yeah, i worked for 3 companies in 7 years. read the post. i quit one because they wanted me to rip off customers and i was fired from one because i will not be dishonest. really smart comment there. you seem to think that i need a change in carreer because i won't be dishonest??? are you kidding? do you work for these guys?
the company i now work for over 6 years is honest and won't rip people off with high b.s. fees and then lie to customers and tell them we have to pay to get rid of compressors. we follow the law and we can prove it.
yeah, people can choose who does the work. except for the people that are stuck with using the crap company the home warranty says they have to use. then they don't even know that company is lying to them. they get screwed because the bad a/c company has them over a barrel. they can also totally waste the $$ they paid for the home warranty and choose someone else. you have that kind of $$ lying around? most of them don't.
i agree companies are entitled to make profit. but they are not entitled to lie to customers and tell them they have to charge extra $$ in b.s. fees because they have to pay them. that is called fraud. do you really think that makeing a profit by fraud is okay??
people, choose good companies. ask lots of questions and call other companies before you spend $$ on things that sound fishy. these guys that are attacking have something up their sleeve. too bad they won't tell us all who they really work for.
oh, and most people don't get a $2000 job for $400 a year and a $55 deductible. most pay the $$ and get nothing done at all. some pay the $55 lots of times for crappy work done by crappy companies after they wait for days in the high heat. some pay the $400 + $55 and then are ripped off by the company that says they didn't maintain the a/c system properly. its all in the fine print. people get screwed all the time by these warranty companies and the ripoff a/c companies that they like to hire. not all are bad. just a lot of them are. some are really good, but good luck finding them.
tech-on
Maybe there is hope for the industry and you are it. I posted up further and stand by what I said and have seen the up and comers and the carpetbaggers. One day I got fed up and decided I could do it myself. It took most of my inner self control not to jack the wholesaler that told me I had to be a tech. I have alot of friends in Las Vegas that would help you in a heartbeat if I asked them tech questions. Unfortunately Az is not the same as they have 10 times more entrepeneurs than LV does. And I don't have the connections, but I do have resourcefulness. Tell it like it is kid!!! 3 jobs in 7 years ain't bad. It's the nature of the beast.
Who knows how many of these poor people (especially the elderly)that have no choice but to do the repairs are victimized. I read a post that noted you have a choice that it's just like any other service. Well,maybe it's me but your talking the difference between life and death in the summer months for some people. To compare it to going out for dinner or changing your oil is being in denial.I wonder if these bandits beleive in KARMA?
AVOID:
Global Warming & Cooling LLC
3909 S Maryland Parkway Ste 214
Las Vegas NV 89119
579-4822 (HVAC)
License #55671
Just like with every other industry, HVAC is not excluded from having good and bad apples. Just because some companies have shady practices does not mean that all are the same.
This article puts into question the validity of charging customers for haul away and disposal fees for compressors and old refrigerant, I believe that this charge is justified because there is an actual service that is privided.
The comments in this blog appear to deviate mostly to stories of bad experiences with bad companies or to the Home Warranty Companies procedures.
Not all companies that work for the Home Warranty Company industry have poor standards. But if the Home Warranty companie does not compensate for certain items tha contractor deserves to be compensated accordingly.
Again I'm not deffending the company in question, I just think that there is justification for a Haul Away and Disposal charge when it involves the proper disposal of refrigerant and eqipment.
I also think that The Sun needs to print a correction advising readers to question the details of such charge with their pretaining company. Again not all companies are the same.
When your HVAC system breaks is always an unexpected expense, this makes customer satisfaction a bit difficult in our line of work; since customers are always aprehensive about being taken, this is true of any emargency expense regardless of industry. Of course there is always a premium to be paid when dealing with trades that work under extreme conditions, as HVAC techniccians do, not everyone is able to do this. Needless to say this premium should be in line with industry standards.
My recomendation is to question all charges and use common sense, not only with HVAC contractors but with all expenses in general. As far as Home Warranties is concerned, please read the contracts before buying, not all are the same, note what's covered and wath is not. Understand thad contractors deserve to be compensated for what the Home Warranty Company does not cover and know that if you feel something is out of line, you can contact your warranty provider question the charges and if necessary request another company. Of course always check a contractors record with the Contractor License Board and the BBB.
As far as the company in question is concerned they need to come clean. Mr. Ballard needs to apologize for providing wrong information; unless he was misrepresented in the article. I'm still to receive a call back in regards to paying only $5.00 for freon disposal, not to mention dumping compressors in the trash; to which Republic Services says is illegal!
Tech-on, did not mean any disrespect, just have been in the industry for a long time and have usually found thechs that move around a lot to blame the companies they worked for when it is usually a personal issue. This does not seem to be the case with you!
Does the homeowner legally own the compressor? IS there a core charge I don't know about? If not, As the owner of the compressor take it after it is removed and dispose of it yourself ,It's your property! How could anyone try and justify a charge like this?
spock
The homeowner still legally owns the compressor and there is no core charge on used compressors of the hermetic type that are used in home air conditioners. The only time that a contractor MUST take the old compressor is when the old one must turned in for a manufacturer's limited warranty. The contractor is almost always charged a fee for shipping and handling in that situation, and the cost is correctly passed on to the homeowner. When the compressor is out of its manufacturer's limited warranty, it is not returned to the manufacturer, and they pay no separate fee.
tech_on
Good for you. At least you had the integrity to refuse to cheat people and the strength to quit the companies who make it their policy to cheat. Your actions tell us what kind of a technician you are and I hope your company appreciates you. If not, there are lots of good companies that will. If these other guys had your strength of character, most of these comments wouldn't be here.
Part 1
Some final comments and then I am on to politics -- much more important. So many of these guys responding are trying to cloud the issue. Kind of like the magician who gets you looking at one hand while pulling off the trick with the other. It is called a "straw man fallacy". They set up a different argument and then attack it, not the real issue. Politicians are great at it, and these guys are trying to do the same thing here. You have to ask yourself why.
Nobody is disputing that contractors charge fees for doing their work. This is how the free market works, and those fees are not regulated. A contractor DOES deserve to get paid fairly to do the work. The issue in the article is that there is at least one company that is misrepresenting to the homeowner that:
1. The compressor contains Freon. (It doesn't at this point)
2. It is illegal for the company to leave the compressor with the homeowner and that the EPA can hit them with a huge fine for doing so.
3. It is illegal to even have the old used compressor in his car without having a special license.
Generally it would be a big hassle for a homeowner to deal with a used compressor (provided it has been removed and sealed properly), but it is NOT illegal. It is not illegal for the homeowner to remain in possession of the old used compressor, and it is not illegal to carry a used compressor in a vehicle without a special license.
Here is the simple truth. The refrigerant has already been removed from the system before the compressor can be taken out and the tech is required to seal the compressor after removal. Contractors DO NOT pay a special fee to get rid of used compressors. They get PAID when they take them to a recycler, or usually get paid when a scrap metal guy picks them up. There are lots of scrap metal guys that will pick the stuff up for free if it is just too much hassle or too expensive for the contractor to take the compressors to the recycler. If you really want to make the argument that a "haul away" fee is justified, then are you charging separately for the oxygen and acetylene used, each stick of solder used, the vacuum pump that is used, etc.? Are you charging a separate hazardous waste disposal fee for your vacuum pump oil? How about for the old capacitor you are taking out? Any additional fees to get rid of that? It could contain PCBs, you know.
Part 2
Contractors DO PAY to get rid of used refrigerant that they MUST recover by law when they open a system to change a compressor. They have to remove the refrigerant BEFORE they can change the compressor (unless it already leaked out). Used refrigerant is considered hazardous and must be disposed of properly. On average, it costs around $3 - $6 to dispose of the refrigerant from the average system. But this does not count the 30-60 minutes it takes the technician to recover the refrigerant, the cost of the equipment it requires to do the job, the tank it has to be stored in, or any filter or other supplies that may also be required. It is completely fair for a contractor to charge for this added cost including the labor, although most contractors already include these costs in the price they charge for changing the compressor. You do the reader a disservice when you lump these very real costs together with what it ACTUALLY costs to get rid of a compressor that has already been removed and sealed.
The straw man fallacy here is all this talk about refrigerants, etc. The article points out that this company is lying to the customer in points 1,2,3 above. That is fraud. To represent that they HAVE TO charge a compressor disposal fee when in reality they can actually get paid a small amount for the scrap metal is fraud. To tell the homeowner that it is illegal to leave the compressor is fraud. All this guys had to say was, "we charge this fee" and he would have been okay. Instead he lied.
We should all be very much aware that contractors can legally charge any fee they want to; they just can't lie and misrepresent the fees, and then claim foul when somebody catches them lying.
The funny thing about all this discussion is that the guys that are screaming the loudest are the ones that now think their "easy money" will disappear. Scaring and deceiving people and then collecting a fee for doing essentially nothing -- what a great way to earn your money. I am glad that I am no longer in the business.
There is a great lesson that my dad taught me when I was just a boy - if you really want to learn the truth about a situation, most of the time all you have to do is to follow the money. There is no doubt that it is hard, hot, and dirty work, and technicians and companies deserve to be compensated properly, but that never justifies cheating and lying.
vegasphotog Thanks for the posts,I understand a little better now. I wonder if they also try to charge this fee to help compensate for having to pull manpower off a money contract to go to a warranty repair.
Here is the reality. When you call an a/c company to come out and fix your compressor, in a retail situation, the amount they charge you includes removal of the refrigerant and disposal of the compressor; you just don't see it line itemed. When an a/c company is sent to you through a Home Warranty they have to line item each task. Some of which are covered by the home warranty some are not. You really don't think a company can survive off the little amount a home warranty gives them, they have to charge for the other tasks. Think of it as your copay and deductible on your health or dental insurance. Insurance is insurance, it is always the same; the insurance companies make money. If you don't believe me look at the law suits against Home Warranty companies.
Now for Blake Ballard, President of SNARSCA, Blake seems to speak without thinking. Often times throwing A/C companies, other than his, under the bus. A man of his industry experience should have known all of the above.
I do not work for Air Pro Masters so I am not baised but Air Pro Masters did nothing wrong. They simply operated within the guidelines of the Home Warranty. If you don't like how the home warranty works don't buy it. Nothing is FREE.
I too am an Air Conditioning Technician. I have been doing this since 1996, 4 years of it was for the Navy. If you want to know about strict guide lines, then look at military guide lines. Yes there are proper desposal procedures of removing refrigerant, but as for re-use of the refriegerant, not a good move. Most of the time there will be a high chance of acid in the refrigerant from a compressor failure. I have nevered once seen true desposal fee law of any sort. I have even worked for Sears in San Diego after my service in the Navy, and all that was required was to drain the oil and dump the compressor in the dumpster. We never asked for a desposal fee for the compressor. Also speaking as a technician here in Vegas now, anyone who is getting all butt hurt about this probally(but not everyone) is guilty of this act. As I have come to learn, there are only a hand full of companies to trust out here, and a couple hundred not to trust. You will find the same problem in EVERY state. I have worked in 3 different states now and know several people through out the country and they will all say the same thing. Now as far as the high weekend charges, it's the weekend, who wants to work on the weekend, it's not normal hours. The company I work for charges $40 over the normal diagnostic charge. There are ways to pay less also. Companies have service agreements and/or club memberships that offer discounted diagnostic charges even for the after hours calls. If you know how to fix it yourself, by all means, go ahead, if you want to keep the compressor and dispose of it your self, I will not complain, less pain in my back to carry it back to my shop, unload it out of my van and dump it in the dumpster. Yes, the EPA has laws about desposal, but not about an empty compressor. Another thing about the oil, it's not the same as motor oil. It's either mineral oil or poe oil. I'm not about to go into details about the different type, if you are reading this, then you are able to look it up yourself!
After reading this article and doing some research, I've come to a few conclusions:
1. Biker and vegaswinner are most likely employees of Air Pro. That's the only explanation for the defensive nature of their posting and for attacking Ballard's character... or they're complete morons for not understanding that the article isn't about regulations, but business ethics.
2. There is nothing illegal about disposing of your own compressor (because it is not owned by the contractor), unless the contractor broke the law and didn't recover the refrigerant and seal of the compressor as mandated by law. (That's for you vhv73)
3. Check out any contractor with the Nevada State Contractor's Board and the BBB online before you use them for anything. Air Pro has only been in business for 3 years. They have had 3 complaints against them with the BBB in the past 36 months. Do you really want to do business with a company like that?
4. And Mr. Reality, do you know what SNARSCA is or even does? Probably not. From their website under objectives: Section 1.9 Improve and promote the character, integrity and quality of the work done and labor employed and, by educational and public service, contribute to the advancement of the industry in all its branches.
Mr. Ballard seems to be doing that quite well by simply stating that lying, deceitful practices shouldn't be tolerated by consumers.
I just ran in to the need to have mine replaced and I am going through my warranty company American Home Shield. They dispatched Ideal Services to perform the work who wants to charge me $130 disposal fee plus a permit fee. I contacted my warranty company AHS after reading this article and they stated they would look in to the matter. They also stated that the fee is not covered by them and it is a fee that I am to pay to Ideal Services. I emailed a copy of this article to American Home Shield and they stated they would get back to me, Ideal Servcies also wants to charge me a permit fee to remove the compressor unit and install the new one. Is charge required by code as AHS said it was? This post was as of today September 22, 2009! So this is still going on in our community.
How much should freeon disposal cost? I just found out today that the homeowners company misquoted the prices to me last week and they are looking into that for me. First of all the tech was incredibly rude and argued over my decision to question the charges...I truly can't believe how he handled it and it is my choice to look into my options if I am not happy with the charges. He couldn't believe that I would look into another option...why is it his place to tell me how to handle it and that it would have been stupid for me to think about the cash out option...that's my choice to make...not his...it was truly appalling. Anyhow, I am going to take it to the junkyard and make a few bucks on it even though he told me that it would probably sit out back forever...he doesn't know me! The other thing that ticked me off was the freeon disposal...should it have been $213.80. If that is the norm, I'd love to know but after seeing this article and some of the comments, I want to know if this is appropriate...I'm having a very hard time believing that it is!
We use Priority Aire, have a service contract with them for annual inspections, cleaning, etc. We're satisfied. Most of the regular maintenance is being done to protect us when our compressors go out so that our warranty company won't refuse the claim. Ditto duct cleaning once every 10 years or so.
It may seem crazy, but you do need a permit to install a new compressor. Also a new water heater. I've looked into this recently for my employer. I don't know how much it costs, you can call the LV building dept. to find out. I also have AHS warranty, and will check with my HVAC guy on Friday when he comes out for his annual visit to find out how much is reasonable for permits, disposal, etc. It sounds like from what I'm reading above that you can probably contact Republic Services and have them pick it up for $35. We all have to hang together!
I've also got a $60 charge on my credit card bill from Air Pro---never heard of them until today. Guy on phone was pretty rude, told me to call back tomorrow when he's near his computer. Am hoping to resolve this peaceably. Post what happens with American Home Security, will ya?
You NEVER need a permit to change a compressor. A compressor is only a part inside a system and replacement is only a repair. Permits are required for replacement of the HVAC equipment (condenser, furnace, air handler, etc.), and are NEVER required to repair existing equipment.
Disposal fees for compressors are not against the law to charge unless the homeowner is told it is required by law (fraud), but they are almost never justified. As the article points out, contractors that are not too lazy to recycle the metal actually get paid to get rid of them. It is NOT illegal for a contractor to leave the compressor with the homeowner because the compressor belongs to the homeowner, not the contractor. This is not regulated by the EPA, county, state or any other entity.
Disposal fees for removing refrigerant are legitimate, but from the comments above, most are extremely excessive for the actual cost and associated work. It is required by law for the contractor to remove and dispose of the refrigerant.
The point of all this is that the home warranty companies underpay the contractor for doing the work, and then look the other way while the contractor gouges the homeowner every way he can to make up for the poor pay he gets from the warranty company.
Buyer beware - you get what you pay for.