Facts under attack

By Future: 8/14/09 at 2:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

How can the LV Sun know what the "fact" are?

There are six bills out there and no bill out there.

A 1000 page here 600 page there

It cost $1.5 trillion per CBO it deficit neutral per Obama

The house and senate are playing hide and seek with the bill content.

The house and the senate can pass anything the public demands in chambers, BUT

Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi can do what ever they really want to do in the house-senate conference committee.

Do you trust Harry and Nancy to decide you healthcare future.

Obama said he will sign anything that congress will send him.

Remember that Obama will write the rules and regulations based on the open to interpetation inept law Harry and Nancy pass

And the LV Sun has no fear of the result?

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 6:06 a.m.; Suggest removal

it's time for the democrats to stop trying to play nice...
it's time to shove health care reform down our poor poor terribly misguided republican friend's throats...
all of the noise we are hearing is orchestrated...
by the insurance companies themselves...
through lobbyists they pay...
ain't nothing grass roots about it...
the protest is all a sham...
think of it this way folks...
if the best the poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns can offer up is twisting end of life counseling into "death panels"...
if that is the best sarah dumb as a bag of rocks palin can offer up...
you have got to know that it is all just rubbish they are selling...
nothing but noise...
and once again...
the funniest part to me is...
many many of our poor poor terribly misguided republican friends have no idea that they are being played like a fiddle by their own party...
they are arguing against their own self interests...
they are arguing for the insurance companies...
who are trying to screw them on a daily basis by denying as much coverage as possible to boost profits...
it's a joke...
poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...

By El_Lobo: 8/14/09 at 6:57 a.m.; Suggest removal

Birdiedreamin.......

You hit the nail on the head with your post. I agree, it's time for the Democrats to use the votes that they have to pass health care reform.

The Republicans have had amble (actually more than amble...) time to come up with their own plan and they have made no attempt to do so... The party of "NO" has no plan other than its attempt to stop "dead in its tracks" all health care reform....

It's time the "rubber meets the road"....in other words, pass health care reform and move on.

I voted for Obama and believed he was a far better candidate for the job that McBush was....
I still believe that however, but.....

I'm disappointed with Obama from the stand point that he has tried to be a nice guy and have a open and civil debate with those who sleep over on the right.

That has not happened and that's simply not going to happen. The right-wingers look upon Obama's attempt to have an open and civil debate as a sign of weakness on his part...

It's time to take names and kick asss....

By indythinker: 8/14/09 at 7:14 a.m.; Suggest removal

What facts? With diluted townhall meetings so BHO can answer "tough" planted questions from 12 year olds without dissent? We are still as much in the dark as we ever were. Just reading these posts over the past weeks proves people see and hear only what they want. For example, I have seen logical posts on the coverage of illegal's thoroughly disputed by liberal bloggers again and again. And to them it all boils down to if you aren't for BHO and his misguided attempt at reinventing the wheel, you are a either a nut, racist, nazi, or my personal favorite, a Reichwinger.

If BHO cannot SIMPLY and TRUTHFULLY convey what it is he's trying to achieve so that "everyone" understands fully...he needs to back off and start over. Should we forget this is the same person who has gone back on his word on more than a few issues; i.e. lobbyiests and is on record as saying he is supportive of things such as eugenics? Why is anyone suprised at the outrage? And, why aren't more of you liberals angry too? At some point, this will affect us all.

Our country was never intended to interfere in our private lives to the extent being proposed. We have more czars than Russia ever had...just the name alone gives one pause, or should. What about the fact that there's now a link at the White House website to rat on your neighbor if "YOU" feel they are misrepresenting or spewing false information? If you asked every other poster on this thread alone, he would say the previous poster was misinformed. So now we are tattling on each other in a situation where those records can be held without public view for 10 years. Why's that? And, what happens to that information? Isn't this what was witnessed in Cuba, Russia, Chechnya etc.? Where does it end? You think this is about medical care, but I think it's more than that. Much, much more. I think it's about the systematic upheaval of our constitutional rights and the bit by bit dismantling of our capitalistic society.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 7:29 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey inythinker...
you are a complete and total fraud...
look at your most recent post fraud...
you cry about no facts...
then you just happen to mention...
illegal immigrants...
eugenics...
spooky spooky governments like russian czars...
you are a fraud...
you add nothing...
you are here to confuse and fear monger...
are you a lobbyist???
do you work for a right wing think tank???
are you paid to post here???
hmmm???

By NLV-Indep13: 8/14/09 at 7:58 a.m.; Suggest removal

Facts? Like the CBO assessment? Otherwise there doens't seem to be much in the ways of facts or figures, just lots of lawyer-speak and Dem's bumper sticker platitudes & insults, to which the Repubs and large numbers of Independents are responding with the suspicion & cynicism anything out of this Congress warrants. They messed up TARP, choosing to bailout their buddies and load up on pork projects, and now they intend to do the same thing with healthcare and cap-n-trade.

And you can be sure there'll be death panels, as care rationing will become inevitable (40 million more patients, ballooning deficit, declining tax revenue, increased bureacratic & political overhead, tons more pork for their buddies, you do the math). And who will automatically get priority for declining resources? You can be sure it won't be the elderly or chronically infirm, the numbers just won't support it. Instead, they'll meet with "counselors" who are aware of the Govt's policies, leaving the counselors little recourse but to advise the patient that "treatment is unavailable, so how about some nice drugs to dull away the pain as you die?"

So, say NO to the Dem's proposals & against any pol that supports it. We need healthcare reform -- we don't need the Dem's socialist programs & pork masquerading as healthcare. Tell them to start over and come up with something better!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 8:06 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey nlv indep13...
you just played the nut job card...
"death panels"...
you are a fraud...
no one should believe a single word that comes out of your mouth henceforth...
there are no "death panels"...
that's crazy talk...
if anything...
there are "death panels" now...
they're called insurance companies...
and they are motivated by the almighty dollar...
got that skippy!!!

By indythinker: 8/14/09 at 8:22 a.m.; Suggest removal

birdiedreamin...you are a complete and utter idiot! You of all posters should get a life. You contribute nothing but nonsense... not one post has ever been anything short of a Dr. Suess-ish rant.

Got that skippy?

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 8:31 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey indythinker...
you know what is beautiful...
you did not answer the questions...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...
why is that skippy???
hmmm???
me thinks the brilliant birdie is on to something...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...
answer the questions fool...
are you a lobbyist???
do you work for a right wing think tank???
are you paid to post here???
very simple yes or no questions...
can you answer them skippy???

By indythinker: 8/14/09 at 8:34 a.m.; Suggest removal

Are you serious? I am not a lobbyist. I do not work for a right-wing think tank. And, no I do not get paid to post.

chirp-chirp!

By larry5: 8/14/09 at 8:45 a.m.; Suggest removal

You liberals need a reality check - again. Once health care is taken over by the government, any changes they want will be administrative - simply a stroke of the pen by a third-class bureaucrat. If you're too naive or stupid to fear this now, you will when it's too late.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 9:03 a.m.; Suggest removal

thanks for playing indythinker...
i respect that...
now...
just stay on point...
stick to the issue at hand...
stop fear mongering...
and i'll buy you lunch...

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 9:13 a.m.; Suggest removal

We all need to accept (Patrick, not "except") that even under our current system, we do not always get what we want. There truly are at this moment panels of very well paid insurance company employees who decide what treatment each of us will get for our medical needs.

Barack Obama did not do this. It is the way of insurance companies.

47,000,000 Americans have no health insurance. We're addressing this need. Costs of healthcare are screaming up at the rate of three times the rise in wages. This absolutely needs to be addressed. It is breaking our family piggy banks. It is totally unsustainable.

After 8 years of no leadership except bad leadership, lies(what WMD?) and invasions of sovereign countries to settle family feuds ("Sadam went for my daddy, and I'm..."), our country was on the verge of economic collapse. Millions of jobs were lost, trillions in life savings went away, hundreds of thousands of my American friends became homeless.

Talk about a reality check. Obama's shoring up of the economy and his efforts to stabilize markets around the world have resulted in rising markets, increases in employment and a sense of relief from disaster pending.

It's time to eschew the selfish rantings of the extremists. As a group of people, we need to evaluate our situation and find common ground in meeting these countrywide needs. Let's hear it for doing the best we can do!

By pmmart: 8/14/09 at 9:15 a.m.; Suggest removal

There are answers to the question of how socialized health care works and how much it will cost..but ... no one in our government is revealing this info ... why not?

Does't the countries that already have this type of health care have a responsibility to their citizens to publish a yearly report stating the financial condition of the system?

Aren't there charts that show the amount of contribution that these citizens pay for their health ccoverage?

Why not publicize this info and let inteligent people make up their own minds on the advantages of socialized medicine?

By gmag39: 8/14/09 at 9:17 a.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie... I like your style.
Hammer away.
Sometimes, you just have to call a spade a spade.

By El_Lobo: 8/14/09 at 9:36 a.m.; Suggest removal

gmag39 said....

"Birdie... I like your style.
Hammer away.
Sometimes, you just have to call a spade a spade."

I agree. Birdie has my vote. He's right on the money!

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 9:47 a.m.; Suggest removal

Gmag, El Lobo and birdie must be the same people, all they know how to do is namecall and buttkiss.

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 9:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

Do I really need to demonstrate AGAIN on how this bill includes funding programs for illegals? I know you've all seen it.

By El_Lobo: 8/14/09 at 9:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

NLV-Indep13 said....

"So, say NO to the Dem's proposals & against any pol that supports it. We need healthcare reform -- we don't need the Dem's socialist programs & pork masquerading as healthcare. Tell them to start over and come up with something better!"

Hmmmmm....I agree that we need health care reform. It's long over due. Your statement that they (Democrats) need to start over is most interesting.

I have a down to earth suggestion.....why don't the Republicans come up with their own health care proposal? Then the two proposals could be compared and contrasted.....isn't that a novel idea?

I know what the Republicans are against but I can't as yet figure out what they're for...they have become the party of "NO." Nothing more....

By indythinker: 8/14/09 at 9:54 a.m.; Suggest removal

Airweavee: "increases in employment and a sense of relief from disaster pending." Facts please. The only jobs I see being created are czarist positons created by BHO. And, I will not stop waiting for the other shoe to drop as long as we have idiots (all parties, part and present) running our country into the ground.

As far as extremism or "fearmongering" is concerned...when no one listens to Joe Everyman people will get extreme. The path that some of you want this country taking is not supported by the rest of us.

There is absolutely no denying, unless you are absolutely delusional, that in order for BHO's plan to succeed unfortunate changes will have to be made. Sadly, that will come in the form of reduced care to some people...namely the elderly. If this were you, your parent or grandparent, I think you would have an issue. It's easy to spout rhetoric like collateral damage is expected when it does not affect you personally. Once that is factored in you might approach things differently. How can you not listen to anyone who has the "ear" of BHO? Ezekial Emmanuel for one. And, this is who BHO gets his advice from. Are we really ready to walk that path? And, guys like DouglasDemocrat (a regular blogger) who happens to be directly affected by this deserves nothing because his odds of survival are lower than the next guy? Or my son who has a congenital heart condition and likely won't live to see middle age without a transplant...should he be written off as well? These are the decisions that are facing our family and others, so yes, we are afraid that someone who has no inking of us personally might one day say...you've had your chance and enough is enough. As a mother, that's a bitter pill to swallow. You will never convince many Americans that this program will benefit anyone other than the few who already have their hands out. So for these few, we change it all? It makes no sense. Reform/regulate all you want... but to systematically move this country into a single payor system is criminal...and that is BHO's intention even if you don't believe it. He's said it himself so I think you probably should.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:01 a.m.; Suggest removal

El Lobo,

For someone who accuses Republicans and libertarians for being a bunch of lemmings could you really come up with something more interesting?

I mean seriously, "astro turf" didn't get big among left wing circles until their leaders started using it.

And now this rhetorical party of no bs. I mean come on be an individual, don't follow the leader - think for yourself...especially if you are accusing the opposition of being brainwashed zombies.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:04 a.m.; Suggest removal

Right now Democrats totally remind me of Goths back in high school.

Goth Kid: "We're unique individuals who don't conform! Want to join us? Oh well, you just have to dress like us and listen to the same music and write poetry about your dark and souless heart, just like what we write about."

By El_Lobo: 8/14/09 at 10:14 a.m.; Suggest removal

Patrick said....

"Gmag, El Lobo and birdie must be the same people, all they know how to do is namecall and buttkiss."

Patrick what do we owe your early day visit to the board to? Maybe you just got tired of reading the works of Adam Smith for another, and another, and another time and decided to branch out...We can only hope!

Another poster has already ask you a question which I don't believed you answered so I'm going to ask the same question again.....OK?

Are you and Governor "blockhead" related?
If not, how in the world can it be explained that you and he are "two peas in a pod" with the same last name? I'm sure you've heard the expression. "The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree."

Maybe the "man who once was governor" (that's not my description....) has been spreading a lot more around the Silver State that just his political ideology?

AS you know, Republican politicians are very good at doing that....

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 10:18 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey patrick r gibbons...
what's up buddy...
for the record...
i post under one name and one name only...
and that is the brilliant birdiedreamin...
got that skippy...
now...
let's turn our attention to you...
shall we...
kindly answer a few simple yes or no questions...
are you a lobbyist???
do you work for a right wing think tank???
are you paid to post here???
indy had the character to answer...
what about you skippy???

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:20 a.m.; Suggest removal

El Lobo,

Cut the demagoguery and make some real points for once.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:23 a.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie, GMAG, El Lobo,

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By El_Lobo: 8/14/09 at 10:27 a.m.; Suggest removal

Patrick....

Did I say that you're a "brainwashed zombie?" Oops, I should have said a "brain-less zombie".....sorry about that!

Can you come up with a better description of the present GOP than the "party of NO?"

Where is their health care proposal? Why aren't they talking about what they're for instead of what they're against?

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 10:29 a.m.; Suggest removal

I have an idea, why don't the dems just come up with something for the uninsured and not attempt a massive government takeover of health care and insurance that impacts every American?

Why don't they just come up with something for the uninsured, without giving away millions of dollars in grant money to the states to be used for programs and services that benefit illegals? We could also live without "quality home visitation programs" for young & expecting families. What about those grants for culturally and linguistically appropriate services, at least 24 of these $500,000 grants must be given with priority to applicants with community organizations or agencies with experience in language access.

Not to mention the enormous amount of grant money going for training people for these enormous programs and putting people through school.

This is far more than a plan to cover uninsured Americans.

By El_Lobo: 8/14/09 at 10:33 a.m.; Suggest removal

Patrick said...

"El Lobo,

Cut the demagoguery and make some real points for once."

Thanks for the advice....I plan to do that very thing as soon as you lead the way...

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:34 a.m.; Suggest removal

And that is what I'm going...see below,

Birdie, GMAG, El Lobo,

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:38 a.m.; Suggest removal

Right now Republicans are the party of "No to stupid ideas" when they were in control they were the party of "yes to stupid ideas"

But seriously you are painting a false dichotomy and engaging in demagoguery by painting your opposition as astro-turf, brainless zombies (especially irritating when you are repeating all the same lines your leaders give you) who offer no alternatives (They do). I mean seriously, when democrats protest its grassroots people movement but when the right protests its Astroturf led by the corporate lobbies? Give me a break.

That is pure demagoguery plain and simple.

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 10:39 a.m.; Suggest removal

gmag, el loco,

"We want rational debate! We want nice discussions!"

But when anyone tries to make valid points, all you do is criticize their character and make false accusations. You never want to discuss the content or defend the verbiage in this health care bill.

It is typical liberalism business as usual. It wouldn't matter to you people what was in the bill, as long as it comes from the left you are all in.

You just call everyone liars and accuse us of being hired by lobbyists, which is about the stupidest things I've every heard.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:41 a.m.; Suggest removal

Btw sun editors,

Intent of a proposal matters a lot less than the outcomes. The right (conservatives and libertarians) are worried about some very bad outcomes that are associated with universal health care and or more government control over the economy. Outcomes matter intentions do not.

If we had perfect world harmony no poverty no hunger and no murder and every single person in the world was greedy, self interested and acted like Scrooge that would be better than having a world of hunger and misery populated by a bunch of Mother Teresa's. Outcomes matter, stop worrying so much about intentions. Yes, Obama Care has good intentions, but it will likely produce some very bad results

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 10:42 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey patrick...
patrick r gibbons...
answer the questions my poor poor terribly misguided republican friend...
are you a lobbyist???
do you work for a right wing think tank???
are you paid to post here???
come on buddy...
they are very simple and straight forward...
what do you say partner???
hmmm???

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 10:44 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey henderson...
how about you give us all a primer on bills...
what do you say buddy???

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 10:46 a.m.; Suggest removal

isn't it interesting how partick r gibbons and henderson show up at the same time...
hmmm???

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:47 a.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson,

The left engages in what I call "the one-armed crack addicted mother of eight children" fallacy. That is, they want to create government programs to treat everyone equally as if we were all the one-armed crack addicted mother of eight children...ie treat everyone as the exception to the rule - those people which cannot take care of themselves.

Rather than provide programs to manage those unlucky or irresponsible few they want to bring everyone down to that level and treat us all like we are incapable of taking care of ourselves.

That is ineffective and wasteful management. I believe that the Left really thinks they are doing everyone a favor and they don't see that their entire ideological policy preference is based on one massive fallacy.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:51 a.m.; Suggest removal

Ie, if one-armed crack addicted mothers of eight children are not capable of taking care of themselves you create a program to address their problems and take care of JUST that subgroup.

The fact they this subgroup has a problem which they cannot (or do not want to) overcome does not give you license to create legislation that punishes everyone else (ie treats them like the one-armed crack addicted mother of eight children).

So if there are people who cannot afford health insurance you create a program that gives them the money to buy the health insurance or health savings account. That is it, problem solved, no massive bureaucracy, no need to create government managed care, no rationing necessary.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 10:54 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey patrick...
patrick r gibbons...
sorry skippy...
you are the demagogue...
period...
end of story...
but we can argue about that later...
let's stick to the matter at hand...
are you a lobbyist???
do you work for a right wing think tank???
are you paid to post here???
hmmm...
tell you what i think buddy...
i think you are avoiding the questions...
so why don't you just answer them...
hmmm...
and then we can move on...
and i can destroy in argument after arguement after argument...
just like i have done ever since we met...
come on buddy...
are you afraid???

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 10:59 a.m.; Suggest removal

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 11:05 a.m.; Suggest removal

Well, don't forget Patrick, we've already been told that we don't know what's good for us.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 11:22 a.m.; Suggest removal

oh patrick patrick patrick...
patrick r gibbons...
our poor poor terribly misguided republican friend...
let's stay focused...
shall we...
answer the questions...
are you a lobbyist???
do you work for a right wing think tank???
are you paid to post here???
hmmm???
very simple questions...
just answer them...
then we can move on...
and continue our lively discussions...
with full disclosure...
what do you say buddy...
hmmm...
you aren't afraid to answer the questions...
are you???

By LarryVegas: 8/14/09 at 11:25 a.m.; Suggest removal

I am glad to see that Birdie is back on his roost, looking for truth on the floor of his coop. Stating that "It's time to shove health care reform down our poor poor terribly misguided republican friend's throats..." This must have been the way that Birdie got his knowledge when he was just a little birdie sitting in a nest waiting for someone to bring a big worm to be crammed down his throat.

But in this case, I think that the Birdie got the worm instead of the writer of this bias editorial that does no good but to spread distortions.

Call them what you like, "End of Life Care" or "Death Panels," they both have similar purposes. To determine what type of medical care one will receive when one reaches "old age."
There is one special word that is used several times in HR-3200 that somehow does not make me very comfortable. The word, "Order" is used for the written results of your consultation with "health care specialists" that determines the medical care for the rest of your life.

Many years ago I went in front of a panel who determined what my future "orders" were going to be for the next several years that I was going to spend in the U.S. Army. The year? 1965 and the outcome did not work out very well for me... Wait, I guess they did tell me at the "consultation" that I would be visiting some foreign country and that I would have fond memories for the rest of my life. And, they did keep that promise. Ah, Southeast asia was really pretty those long years ago and I still have memories to this day, but unfortunately my memories are usually in the form of nightmares.

So, hope you don't mind if I resist anyone trying to cram something down my throat...

Except maybe for the Bird as he has the word...

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 11:26 a.m.; Suggest removal

Nevada's own Henderson:

"I have an idea, why don't the dems just come up with something for the uninsured and not attempt a massive government takeover of health care and insurance that impacts every American?"

The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone...

In children's worlds, things are simple. In the real world, there are connections that do not always appear to the eye.

Henderson, we are talking about 47,000,000 Americans with NO health coverage except going to ER and passing the tab to the other 247,857,981 of us. We're also attempting to address the monstrous rise in health care costs that skyrocketed under W and were kicked under the carpet.

When the public option hit the waves, a huge outcry against it was based on the predicted response that it would lower costs for those currently insured, that it would attract people away from more expensive policies and these trends would reduce profits for insurance companies. Sounds terrible for the country, huh?

More money in our pockets, coverage for everybody, less of our income going into the fleecy pockets of millionaire insurance execs.

If you want to be able to change one huge thing and not have ripples from the action, then you are living in la la land. Simple physics.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 11:29 a.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie, find your dictionary and look up the word "irony"

after that Gmag, El Loba et al can answer this,

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 11:45 a.m.; Suggest removal

About that extremely overblown number of 47 million uninsured, 43 percent earn over $65,000 per year and opted not to purchase insurance.
Another 10 million are not even legally here.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 11:59 a.m.; Suggest removal

oh patrick r gibbons, patrick r gibbons, patrick r gibbons...
our poor poor terribly misguided republican friend...
tell you what buddy...
it has been proven that many who attend these town hall meetings are not just interested constituents...
they have been organized...
they have a vested interest in defeating health care reform...
be they lobbyists, think tanks, or other paid activists...
it is not spontaneous...
it is not genuine...
it is staged...
so...
in the interest of full disclosure...
let's all take an oath...
shall we...
i'll start...
here goes...
i birdiedreamin...
of brilliant mind and sound body...
do hereby solemnly swear that...
i am not a lobbyist...
i have no affiliation with any think tank...
and i am not being paid to post here...
there...
got that...
indy disclosed...
i disclosed...
who's next...
hmmm...
let's see...
how about you patrick r gibbons...
what do you say buddy...
you aren't afraid...
are you???

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 12:04 p.m.; Suggest removal

Hey Larry,

I didn't go to nam. I had a college deferment for awhile and then my lottery number was 243 and they only took to 160 in my county. I lost 5 friends from my graduating class of 321 kids. Lots of guys came back goofed up. I'm glad you're doing well enough to respond. We all owe you for your courage and your hardship. There is no greater sacrifice and no greater respect coming from my heart than for those who like you who were there for our country when it was determined to be necessary to go to war. Even though my dad had been a POW at the hands of the Japs in WW11 who held him for three years, he still swore the army was a great experience and I heard him say he wouldn't try to change history. He'd do it again.

Larry, you're missing something. Insurance companies today pay some of their employees to decide what services are going to be funded. They determine whether you get the expensive treatment. They have to make decisions about health care. This is not a new thing just for the public option. It's part of the current way things are done.

Nobody wants stuff crammed down their throats. Human beings deserve some respect. We have a limited amount of health care available, and these decisions about how much to spend on stuff must be made. Let us combine compassion and understanding.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 12:15 p.m.; Suggest removal

Epic fail come on...

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 12:19 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey airweave...
bravo...
let's just hope voices of reason like yours will eventually carry the day...
sadly though...
you can not reason with our poor poor terribly misguided republican friends...
they are not negotiating in good faith...
they would rather change the subject...
they would rather fear monger...
they would rather shout and scream...
sadly...
you must stay on point...
you must shot down the fear mongering and embarrass the fear mongers...
you must out shout and scream them...
then...
you can get real reform...
we are getting there buddy...
our poor poor terribly misguided republican freinds are being exposed for the frauds they are...
slowly but surely...
we will get there...
we just have to deal with all of this poor poor terribly misguided republican nonsense first...
thank you...

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 12:20 p.m.; Suggest removal

airware,

The government tells insurance companies what they must provide and then forces people to get coverage they may not want.

What is different between private insurance and government insurance is that the private insurance HAS to provide a quality service at a reasonable price but the government does not. It must merely tax you.

Additionally, both a third party payer systems - meaning someone else pays for the care so you don't really care how much it costs. Furthermore, our private insurance system is not market driven. Outside of being heavily regulated and restricted by government our insurance policies are bought by our employers not by us. We currently have very little choice in the matter today and will have even less once the government takes over more.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 12:20 p.m.; Suggest removal

OK Henny, I'll give you your due. Let's adjust our sights. Down from 47,000,000 to only 15,000,000 according to your information. The point is that as a nation we do spend way more on inferior health coverage than most of the people in the world. We're talking gobs of dough here.

Altering a system so deeply entrenched and so in need of revamping will have major impacts on many other parts of our culture. I don't think it's realistic to expect to be able to address so enormous a system that intertwines with so many other facets of our society without considerable impact on tangential systems. What we're trying to do is too big to be done without an Environmental Impact Statement of sorts.

But it's also quite clear that doing nothing or maintaining the status quo will result in financial ruin.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 12:21 p.m.; Suggest removal

oh patrick...
patrick r gibbons...
we are waiting???

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 12:21 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie, anyone really,

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 12:24 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie, I don't want to keep you distracted by answering fallacious questions. Do yourself a favor and stick with the program here, ie stick to the points and facts at hand. Now you can talk all you want about being smart but you've got to show it first...

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 12:33 p.m.; Suggest removal

oh patrick r gibbons, patrick r gibbons, patrick r gibbons...
our poor poor terribly misguided republican friend...
tell you what buddy...
i will destroy your little computer analogy later...
just answer my simple questions first...
you know...
i am starting to think that you just might not be able to take our simple little oath...
hmmm...
prove me wrong buddy...
then we can move on...
what do you say skippy???

By Houstonjac: 8/14/09 at 12:41 p.m.; Suggest removal

There are major concerns that a shortage of doctors, nurses and medical facilities will lead to unreasonable delays in receiving medical care from qualified doctors thereby seriously disrupting the health care of the 255 million Americans currently receiving care. These are valid concerns which the Obama administration and Congress have not addressed to the satisfaction of the American people.

This brings us to the crux of the matter--what kinds of reforms should be enacted to rectify shortcomings in the existing health care system? Rather than the radical, financially staggering and government invasive reform agenda being offered by the Obama administration and Congress, there are several reform initiatives that will fix the existing system and preserve the current health care system that is favored by the overwhelming majority of Americans.

Legislation is required that will do the following: Eliminate pre existing condition exclusions in private insurance policies; make all insurance policies portable so that insureds are able to take their plans with them wherever they go; open up competition for health insurance between states so that health care insurance can be obtained from carriers in any state; limit increases in health insurance premiums; eliminate the annual and life time dollar limitations in insurance policies; extend insurance coverage to anyone who is unable to afford health care insurance through the provision of government subsidies.

The Obama administration and Congress must go back to the drawing board and devise a private market version of health care reform as described above. The passionate and loud outcry from America is not the voice of an angry "mob".
Rather, mainstream America in the overwhelming majority is demanding restraint by its government, and that the existing health care system be protected.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 12:43 p.m.; Suggest removal

yo birdie,

Methinks your Mr. Gibbons is an actual employee of a so-called think tank.

You, of course, may take issue with the "think' part.

I do believe that as an employee charged with the challenge to address certain issues in certain ways that our illustrious and prolific gentleman of rhetoric is actually being paid to inform and guide.

And so, dear bird, you may NOT get your wish.

Sorry to be the one to broach the topic. And I've been wrong before.

By Houstonjac: 8/14/09 at 12:44 p.m.; Suggest removal

After spending the night on a roll-a-way bed in the hallway of a Canadian hospital after suffering a heart attack, the Canadian prime minister's brother said to his brother the prime minister the next day: " We have to do something about health care in this nation!"

Americans have increasingly acquired both a better quality of life and longer life spans. These benefits have been the result of the increased presence of healthy life style options, as well as improved medical technology, facilities and treatments. As we now debate major changes in health care, we must factor in to this debate the impacts that these changes will have on the quality of life and longevity for all Americans who now receive health care benefits--about 85% of all Americans or 255 million people.

While the new Obama and Democrat health care reform initiatives should reinforce these trends toward improved quality of life and longer life spans, such trends in fact directly conflict with the newly proposed reforms, which will restrict the treatment options available to individuals i.e. more extensive health care rationing must result. Also, when health care is available to everyone--including the millions of additional people not now covered-- there will be a shortage of medical resources to treat everyone who needs health care. This major social cost must be factored into the health care debate.

By Houstonjac: 8/14/09 at 12:50 p.m.; Suggest removal

Looking at the numbers, assume a U.S. population of about 300 million. With an insured population of 85%, that means about 255 million Americans are currently covered by some form of health insurance. That leaves about 45 million people uncovered. It is estimated that of this number about 50% or 22 million can afford health care coverage but opt instead to self insure. Of the remaining 23 million an estimated 10 million are illegal immigrants for whom no health care coverage is needed. That leaves about 13 million people who truly need health care coverage who cannot afford it. It is these 13 million people for whom society should provide subsidies for medical coverage.

For these 13 million people it is absolutely contrary to sound logic to spend an estimated $1.5 trillion over 10 years and to turn our existing health care system upside down when a recent Rasmussen poll indicated that 68% of Americans are pleased with their existing health care coverage. But that's exactly what the Obama administration and the Democrats are promoting, and that's why vast numbers of Americans are pushing back with passion and outrage in town hall meetings across the country against the health care reform proposals offered by the Obama administration and the Congress. These reform proposals include a government run option, a draconian policy toward private insurers that most believe will ultimately drive them out of business, and deep cuts in Medicare spending that will deprive millions of the elderly of their present excellent health care benefits. There is also wide concern that government bureaucrats will intervene to decide what treatments will be administered to all Americans, and which doctors that people will see.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 12:52 p.m.; Suggest removal

Lesson 1 on debate.

Who says what doesn't matter.
What they say matters

Ex. Barbara Buckley a Democrat whose major sponsors include unions says that Nevada underfunds education and needs to increase education spending.

We know the teachers union likes increased education spending because that means we can hire more teachers and pay teachers more money and that means more dues for them.

We could dismiss Barbara Buckley as someone who only thinks that way because she is paid to. But that would be fallacious because we are NOT addressing her point which is her opinion that Nevada underfunds education. Attacking Barbara Buckley as a union crony would be an ad-hom attack. It leaves wide open the possibility that she might be right -- Nevada might very well underfund education.

Choosing to attack the person does not make you right in a debate it makes you logically fallacious.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 12:53 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey airweare...
it is curious that patrick r gibbons will not take our simple little oath...
most curious indeed...

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 12:56 p.m.; Suggest removal

That said,

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 1:10 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey patrick r gibbons...
i respectfully disagree...
i think 'who says what" matters a great deal...
you see my poor poor terribly misguided republican friend...
if the who is a lobbyist or affiliated with a think tank or a paid activist...
well...
you know those folks are biased right...
right...
correct me if i'm wrong skippy...
so you see...
"who" matters a great deal...
and that is why i ask you to take our simple little oath...
what do you say partner...
then we can debate on the merits all day...
oh by the way...
"fallacious questions"...
please...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...
i think my questions are most relevant...
in fact...
i think they are brilliant!!!

By BobbyG: 8/14/09 at 1:19 p.m.; Suggest removal

I watched almost all of Specter's Town Hall yesterday. At one point he tries to calm an upset questioner by saying "Look, there's no bill yet. There have been 5 or 6 House committees working on it, but there's no bill yet..."

Whereupon he goes on to mention HR3200, almost as an aside, while saying that the Senate has yet to proffer a bill (not entirely true either, there is in fact an unnumbered Senate draft).

Then. later in the Q&A he goes on to assert this & that about what IS and IS NOT in the "plan."

There's a "plan," but no "bill"? LOL.

Everyone is pretty much blowin' smoke on this issue.

BTW- Anyone unequivocally asserting what health care reform "will do" regarding cost containment is simply full of [bleep].

But, just consider some big picture numbers. We spend roughly 2x per capita on "health care" relative to comparable industrial nations (all of whom provide, in one manner or another, universal coverage). Now, what do we get for that expenditure? Low comparative aggregate clinical marks across the board relative to the rest of the developed world.

What can explain that disparity, other than "profit"?

We're currently at ~$2.5 trillion in NHE (National Health Expenditure) -- FIVE times the U.S. defense budget. The current policy battle to essentially lock in the for-profit status quo is no mystery to me. Lotta money on the table.

I've been studying this issue for 16 years. I still don't claim to have all the answers. But I try to not talk out my [bleep] on stuff.

"Public Option" is viewed as a competition constraint on the for-profit intermediary sector. Perhaps only weakly so, in my view. And, with respect to "quality," its is pretty clear by now (and I've worked in the health care QI field), that clinical outcomes quality is not essentially a function of money per se.

See http://bgladd.blogspot.com

You might want to start with my May 25th post and work forward from there.

By indythinker: 8/14/09 at 1:36 p.m.; Suggest removal

"Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?"

Might the answer be...competition?

By indythinker: 8/14/09 at 1:40 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie: Are you sure you aren't channeling your inner Alex from Clockwork Orange with all your nadsat-ish lingo?

You're driving me bezoomy with all your chepooka!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/14/09 at 2 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey indy...
i just don't see what the big deal is...
you answered the simple little questions...
i answered the simple little questions...
no big deal...
right...
but our poor poor terribly misguided republican friend patrick r gibbons just won't answer the simple little questions...
hmmm...
once he does...
we move on...
we debate our little hearts out...
only with full disclosure...
it becomes a much better debate...
don't you think...
anyway...
i do miss mr kubrick...
it will was always great knowing he was working on another masterpiece...
even if they took a decade to make...
they were all masterpieces...
don't you think...

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 2:07 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie people can be biased, completely biased and still be correct on an issue. Accusing someone of bias does NOT prove them wrong you are still engaging in fallacious reasoning.

Furthermore, since most everyone has a bias, one way or another, the same "arguments" you make can be thrown right back at you with the same effect. We can dismiss you as a biased left wing nut, but that wouldn't mean you are wrong on health care issues (although you've yet to make a factual point and have declined to defend a thing).

so,

Why can you buy a laptop or even a desktop computer, brand new, for as little as $299? Why is the average price of a computer today about $500 to $600 when 20 years ago it was $2,000?

Why do computers today run faster and store more information for less money than 20 years ago?

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/14/09 at 2:14 p.m.; Suggest removal

Indy,

Yes, competition (thanks for answering). Computer companies are competing with each other to provide the best product at the best price. That means innovation to improve its speed, storage, quality and attempts to reduce its price. There are hundreds of computer manufacturers in America ranging from mom and pop shops to Dell and Apple. There are two major processor manufacturers in the US (out of dozens around the world) dozens of companies that produce memory, graphics cards, hard drives, dvd drives, monitors so on and so forth.

Computers are THOUSANDS of times faster and more capable than they were 20 years ago and considerably cheaper. Assuming the computer price in 1989 was in fact $2,000 (that is how much our family's first computer cost ) and the average today is $600 means computers would be 479 percent cheaper today than 20 years ago.

So the question now is, why is healthcare increasing in price? And not just increasing in price but increasing far faster than inflation? Why is health care somehow immune from the effects of market driven competition?

By pmmart: 8/14/09 at 2:31 p.m.; Suggest removal

Why not publish what the citizens of the countries with socialized heath care pay for their coverage and let the us folks here in the USA decide for ourselves how practicle the idea is?

Is this too simple?

By indythinker: 8/14/09 at 2:44 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie: On this...you are 100% right...he was brilliant and provocative.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 3:12 p.m.; Suggest removal

pmmart has a good idea. No, it's not too simple. But that's an excellent question.

Besides what they pay, let's see what they get. And how quickly.

How much money do they pay their docs? Nurses? etc.

It's been theorized that we will be experiencing more of a shortage of docs, nurses, etc if we begin to limit their pay. I question this theory. Most of 'em are fairly altruistic and noble in my experience. They do it 'cause they can. They are not the bottom-liners you find in Finance, Real Estate, Tobacco, Insurance, etc.

It's a good thing we still have folks that want to do the right thing for its own sake, huh?

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 3:41 p.m.; Suggest removal

There are enormous amounts of grant monies in the bill going towards education for these health care fields.

Although from what I've read so far, you have to meet certain criteria such as be low income, be a minority, or go into a field that you can specialize with low income/minority issues and things like that. A lot of it relates to ethnicity, culture and low income. I have read this portion, but I have not disected it the way I would like to yet.

By lazyfaire: 8/14/09 at 5:30 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie:

I'm not a lobbyist, I'm not part of a think tank, and I'm not paid to post here.

Our method of paying for health care is what makes it more expensive than it needs to be. If we paid for groceries the way we pay for health care, food prices would skyrocket. Imagine paying a $15 co-pay and then taking whatever you wanted off the shelves. Imagine most of the cost of your groceries being paid by your employer on a pre-tax basis.

So we need reform in how we pay for health care. We can move toward the free market, which we know is the best way to deliver all other consumer goods, or we can move toward government regulation and control.

In the free market, consumers spend their own funds for their own benefit. Producers compete for consumer dollars by maximizing efficiency in marshalling and deploying scarce resources to provide the best benefits at the lowest cost.

Government uses compulsion to raise its funds and it does not have competitors, so it does not have to concern itself with consumer wants. It is not primarily concerned with costs and benefits, but with increasing its size and power. It is not populated with benevolent public servants, but with self-serving bureaucrats and politicians.

Not just our country, but every country, would be better off with a free market health care system.

By formervegas76: 8/14/09 at 6:34 p.m.; Suggest removal

the rebublicant's are out again. can't do this, can't do that, oh hell yeah more for the rich, that'll solve all our problems.

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 7:47 p.m.; Suggest removal

It wouldn't be formervegas without a complaint about rich people!

By gmag39: 8/14/09 at 7:50 p.m.; Suggest removal

My OPINION:
Patrick R. Gibbons is a punk, and a shill for sheldon addleson's ultra-conservative, right-wing think tank, NPRI.
I have argued with him on several occasions as to the legitimacy of his using the Sun's comment pages to spread "The Gospel According to NPRI."
He WILL NOT be dissuaded from ANY of his arguments, turns petulant and angry in a flash when you DO try to point/counterpoint with his ideas and "statistics".
He is knowledgeable from the standpoint that he's literate and book-smart. However, it is my opinion that he lacks any real life experience outside of academia, and therefore his "opinions" are flawed. I will not play any more silly games with Mr. Patrick R. Gibbons. He will have to bait and antagonize others into playing his childish games.
B.T.W.;
How's that full disclosure coming for birdie?

By lazyfaire: 8/14/09 at 8:42 p.m.; Suggest removal

gmag39:

Very persuasive point...or was it counterpoint?

Do you have a point?

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 8:57 p.m.; Suggest removal

Yahoo gmag39!!!

You have managed to nail the culprit with truth. Your post is so right on. I like the sense of frustration so beautifully portrayed. Trying to deal with someone whose pontifications reek of bookish learning and whose real-world understanding is nil challenges the most pious among us.

You are not alone in taking issue with the questionable use of the Sun's space for his daily continuous flow of the gospel according to sheldon.

Bait is what he does so well.

Purge is what you do, gmag39. I feel your pain and your joy. Way to go.

By lazyfaire: 8/14/09 at 9:08 p.m.; Suggest removal

airweare:

You call arguments for which you have no rebuttal "pontifications."

In the end, it doesn't really matter if you agree or disagree with Patrick. The economic principles that he understands and speaks of are not altered by your "pain and joy." They will simply push you out of the way or run over you.

By El_Lobo: 8/14/09 at 9:22 p.m.; Suggest removal

Patrick is doing what he always does.....he heading down the same old road, saying that all that matters in our system is the use of the "free market."

Patrick is convinced that every single problem in our society.....political, economic, social, etc..., can be solved by the use of the "free market" system. If only life was that simple....

Patrick thinks health care is only about the "free market." What he doesn't understand is that a "free market" may work very well with the progress made in the computer world (better technology at a lower price for example...) but that has NOT worked with health care.

Patrick can read and write (at times pretty well) but the only problem with Patrick is that he keeps reading the exact same books/material.

Patrick's favorite book, (I'm told he has over a thousand copies) is a book entitled "The Wealth of Nations."

Rumors are that Patrick actually "soils himself" when the name Adam Smith is interjected into any discussion... I can't validate that belief but it's a persistent rumor that refuses to go away...

In short, the guy who has the exact same last name as our "blockhead" governor, has locked himself in a time warp that dates back to the middle 1700's.

The old saying that "a little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing" fits our resident self proclaimed economist to a "T."

By Green_Dragon_Regular: 8/14/09 at 9:59 p.m.; Suggest removal

And Obama said 'Looketh not at public option as death knell of the private sector! Behold the postal service- thine own original endeavor of government beyond the military. They who have come to the business of providing a convenient, unnecessary service to businesses wishing to speed service and word have far apaced our beloved postal service! It is the Post Office that is in trouble! So, I beseech thee, fair citizen, giveth up thy medical security to those that runneth the Post- for the good of the few who know not the luxury of co-pay. We will take all under the protective cloak of the benevolent brother Fed'e'ral and please them as the Post Office has done!'

"If it fits, it ships! All for one, low, low price!"
-U.S. Postal Service, Summer, 2009

"Thhphht!"
-Bill the Cat, c. 1986

By lazyfaire: 8/15/09 at 7:08 a.m.; Suggest removal

El Lobo:

We don't have a free market for health care. So all your obsessing about Patrick is just hot air.

By PeterGun: 8/15/09 at 7:18 a.m.; Suggest removal

IMPEACH OBAMA !!!!!

HE'S INCOMPETENT !!!!

He couldn't run a McDonald's restaurant successfully much less the United States. Guy was never in charge of anything his entire life and it shows.

Just another corrupt, clueless politician from Illinois.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/15/09 at 8:22 a.m.; Suggest removal

well well well...
we had a very interesting day yesterday...
we learned that some among us are willing to disclose if they are lobbyists, think tank clowns, or paid activists...
and others aren't...
patrick r gibbons, for example, will not disclose...
hmmm...
makes one wonder doesn't it...
in fact...
is not that logical inference that he is in fact a lobbyist, a think tank clown, or a paid activist because he will not disclose...
hmmm...
by the way...
you can clear this up at any time patrick r gibbons...
got that skippy...
then...
then...
this is the part that kills me...
then...
after he refuses to answer my repeated requests for disclosure...
then...
better sit down for this one folks...
then...
he puts forth this pathetic argument that it doesn't matter if one is biased...
essentially saying...
it doesn't matter if one is a lobbyist, a think tank clown or a paid activist...
hello...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...
man that is funny...
that's a special little charm are poor poor terribly misguided republican friends have developed...
they just disregard reality...
say that which serves them best...
no matter how outrageous...
just say it with a straight face...
and then smile...
the smile is key...
that special little poor poor terribly misguided republican smile...
it's pathetic...
really really pathetic...
and we proud liberal democrats need to slam it down every single time...
for example...
consider karl rove the disgusting...
the most disgusting political figure of our lifetime...
a report comes out that says his fingerprints were all over the firing of the us attorneys for political gain...
and yet...
what does karl the disgusting do...
he says he is glad the report exonerates him...
hello...
karl the disgusting...
anyone home...
it doesn't say that...
you are an evil evil scum bag karl...
and you belong in jail...
along with w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer...
got that skippies...
anyway...
where were we...
oh yeah...
poor poor terribly misguided patrick r gibbons...
he seems to infer that even if he is a lobbyist, a think tank clown, or a paid activist it doesn't matter...
hello...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...
pathetic...
absolutely pathetic...
you sir...
are a moron...
a total and complete moron...
and of course...
a poor poor terribly misguided republican clown!!!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/15/09 at 8:45 a.m.; Suggest removal

listen up boys and girls...
you really must lose the notion that patrick r gibbons is book smart...
stop it...
he is not...
what spews forth from his mouth is not book smarts...
it's spin, spin and more spin...
there is nothing of educational value...
for example...
if some clown...
let's just call our hypothetical clown gibby...
if gibby the clown were to ramble on and on and on about the virtues of trickle down economics...
if he were able to quote chapter and verse on all of the text books ever written on trickle down economics...
does that make him smart...
hell no...
that just makes him a poor poor terribly misguided republican clown who has sadly filled his brain with useless information...
you see my friends...
trickle down economics is a whole and comlete and total failure...
period...
end of story...
in fact...
when our economy collapsed under this failed system...
if you stop and take an accounting...
you will see this...
the top 1% earns 20% of all income...
the top 1% owns as much wealth as the bottom 90%...
the federal government was $10 trillion in debt before obama due to the their constant crying about tax cuts...
45 million americans do not have health care...
it's a whole and total and complete failure...
period...
end of story...
so...
if gibby the clown can quote chapter and verse on trickle down economics...
what does that make him...
a poor poor terribly misguided republican clown...
that's it...
nothing more...
it does not make him book smart...
it makes him wrong...
period...
end of story...
so please...
let's stop the nonsense...
gibby the clown is not smart...
on any level...
got that!!!

By lazyfaire: 8/15/09 at 10:31 a.m.; Suggest removal

birdie:

You are unable to refute a single point made by Patrick, because he is only stating economic truths. You know nothing of economics, so you do not understand what he says. You only know how to spew nonsensical hatred at people. You also don't know what it means to be American. Americans believe in free markets and freedom of thought. You are suspicious of Patrick because he won't lower himself to answer your stupid little questions. That is also un-American. Go back to your cage, you warped little twit.

Now spew your hatred at me, nutjob.

By RebelRon: 8/15/09 at 10:51 a.m.; Suggest removal

My Mother had to leave the state of Oregon because their Death Panels refused her cancer treatment! If this goes national, I hope the Sun editors are the first to be rationed. Idiots!

By henderson: 8/15/09 at 11:53 a.m.; Suggest removal

lazyfaire,

Please don't validate birdie by even responding!

Anyone stupid enough to:
a) think anyone is bound by any "oath" they take here
and
b) think any "think tank" or organization would pay anyone to post on this rag's website

is obviously a total nutjob. I decided a while back to just pretend birdie doesn't exist. It's so nonsensical it doesn't even deserve a response.

By bouldercity: 8/15/09 at 12:43 p.m.; Suggest removal

The Administration & the lap-dog Congress expect us to believe they can effectively manage health care for 300 million people. Who do they think they are fooling? As more details of the Presidents past are uncovered, he looks like a typical Chicago thug (only polished). The Vice-President ("no body messes with Joe") couldn't find his way out of a lighted phone booth. Isn't he the guy who was charged with watching the $787 BILLION stimulus? Our friends in Congress couldn't run a corner lemonade stand with anything less than a few BILLION in start-up funds, but they are very willing to try... as long as it is someone else's money. The whole bunch should be in the unemployment line except for those who should be in jail. Our government is degenerating rapidly to the very lowest common denomintator.

By lazyfaire: 8/15/09 at 12:54 p.m.; Suggest removal

henderson:

I'll take your advice. Just thought I'd throw a little support behind Patrick.

By Green_Dragon_Regular: 8/15/09 at 12:54 p.m.; Suggest removal

@Birdiedreamin-

Your pathetic, rambling attempt to channel Joyce while commenting without facts is leaving everyone here the dumber for reading it.

Please tell me there's someone you can call to get you any help you may need...

By El_Lobo: 8/15/09 at 4:34 p.m.; Suggest removal

lazyfaire said.....

"El Lobo:

We don't have a free market for health care. So all your obsessing about Patrick is just hot air."

Yep, you are correct about no free market in health care......My point is that Patrick "Smith" thinks we should...

He believes that all of our problems with health care would be solved if we went the complete free market route...

Of course, Patrick "Smith" also believes that all the problems in the world (even future wars...) would be solved or avoided under a world-wide free market system....

You haven't been reading Patrick's rants have you....shame on you! How can you defend him if you don't know what he's been saying?

By airweare: 8/15/09 at 5:18 p.m.; Suggest removal

After reading and commenting for a day, I have concluded this: The world would greatly benefit from a health care system that used its so-called "panels" to significantly reduce health care expenses for the masses. Most of these posts smell of the marinade of meanness, the scent of selfishness and the aroma of common a-holes.

But for the rare news item or info piece, the whole passel of posts here pose remarkably few positive notions; it's sadly true that the community lacks the collective will to do anything about the massive problems we all face except rant about emotionally laden issues that appear intended not to bring about cohesive, productive dialogue, but rather to divide and attack.

In the name of decency and the future of grandchildren I say: Less mouth and more ears. Less splein and more heart.

By gmag39: 8/15/09 at 6:34 p.m.; Suggest removal

RebelRon;
Please, some info on these notorious "DEATH PANELS" in Oregon.
P.S...Hope your mom is beating her cancer.

By henderson: 8/15/09 at 7:05 p.m.; Suggest removal

Some info. on the Oregon Death Panels:

http://alexschadenberg.blogspot.com/2008...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,3929...

By El_Lobo: 8/15/09 at 7:45 p.m.; Suggest removal

mormonsuck said....

"Want free health care, Move to Tijuana El Lobust"

Hmmmm....who said anything about free health care?

By Rooster: 8/15/09 at 9:06 p.m.; Suggest removal

Keep in mind that the Las Vegas Sun is a democrat rag. If the Democrats put up a convicted murderer for president , The Sun would endorse him. It's that simple. Straight ticket voters are stupid and without moral fiber. There ain't nothing wrong with the health care system. People complain that they can't afford insurance but they have money for tattoos and ipods and slot machines and swimming naked at the Rio and on and on it goes. Get your priorities straight and join the responsible members of society. and birdiedreamin please don't hog the page

By Rooster: 8/15/09 at 9:25 p.m.; Suggest removal

there are 104 comments on this subject and 20 of them are from birdiedreamin. that is .1923% of all the posts............Sheesh! gimme a break.
What are you birdiedreamin, a shut-in or just too lazy to go out and smell the homeless?

By darthbry: 8/15/09 at 9:47 p.m.; Suggest removal

I think I want to apply for the position of health CZAR. I guess all I have to do is plan to kill 30,000,000 people, or plot the bombing of buildings to start a revolution, or force abortions on people, or put sterilants in the water. Or maybe I should start to claim I can now feel global warming when I fly due to the new volatility caused by man made global warming. Think about it folks, all you have to do is plan to be a terrorist, social engineer or claim you are so in touch with the earth you can now feel global warming, and you too can have a lucrative career as a CZAR (please read this with total sarcasm), and if you have any other ideas I can include on my resume that I am submitting to BHO. Besides the one fringe benefit I really want is I will be EXEMPT from government run healthcare! That alone should wake up you people that government run healthcare is BAD news!

By William: 8/15/09 at 10 p.m.; Suggest removal

Posted By RebelRon "My Mother had to leave the state of Oregon because their Death Panels refused her cancer treatment!" If this goes national, I hope the Sun editors are the first to be rationed. Idiots!"

Hey Ron, what exactly is your point? Are you saying that a private insurer would have paid for the treatment? That's bull and every grownup knows it.

Read this from a link supplied by henderson in this very same comment section.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,3929... - "Oregon doesn't cover life-prolonging treatment unless there is better than a 5 percent chance it will help the patients live for five more years"

People die and no amount of money or treatment will save them.

Would you be just as mad/sad if the treatment were denied by a private insurance company?

Is there anyone here that can honestly state that a private insurance company would be willing to pick up the tab on this known to be ineffective shot in the dark?

I didn't think so.

By ksand99: 8/16/09 at 12:02 a.m.; Suggest removal

That's the point, William. These people are fine and dandy with private insurance companies killing thousands of people every year when they drop coverage or decline treatment. But if a public option does the same thing, it's suddenly the worst thing in the world.

Secondly, I have to address Henderson yet again. Now, after all of his various protestations were debunked and he whined that his arguments weren't sourced from blogs, he brings links to two blogs... just reinforcing the idea that he's never read the actual bill and instead did some copy/pasting from various right-wing blogs.

THIRDLY, and most importantly, I'm sticking up for Birdie. Henderson wrote: "Anyone stupid enough to think any "think tank" or organization would pay anyone to post on this rag's website is obviously a total nutjob. "

It's a widely-known and established fact (acknowledged by Gibbons himself) that Patrick Gibbons is employed by NPRI, a right-wing think tank primarily funded by Las Vegas Sands owner and Cheney-lover Sheldon Adelson. Under his previous username, "KDR81," Patrick would regularly link to NPRI publications THAT HE WROTE as independent proof of his assertions, and without acknowledging himself as the source or employed by the authors.

Furthermore, Patrick has written comments in defense of and in response to criticism of NPRI by the Sun. He writes these comments during the day. I guess Henderson thinks Patrick's employment as an "Education Policy Analyst" is a graveyard shift.

In fact, why don't you visit NPRI's Anniversary Celebration, hosted at Sheldon Adelson's Venetian Hotel and Casino. And for those who doubt that NPRI's a rabid right-wing organization, guess who's the guest of honor at their little dinner?

Karl Rove.

Libertarians? Give me a break.

By lisa80268: 8/16/09 at 12:57 a.m.; Suggest removal

Around the age of 20 I had my first encounter with an HMO. Just horrible! I am now 41 and I am truly perplexed that anyone could be against health care reform. The system we have now is horrible, especially in Nevada. I pray I don't get a real "illness" in this city. As it stands now I'd die in the waiting room before someone would help me.
Most of you are in the same boat too. Don't let yourselves be brainwashed by the Rich Fat Cats who of course want everything to stay as-is. No wonder.. most of them take money from the insurance companies. It is in THEIR best interest (not yours) to keep the system ineffective and expensive!

By skerlahdee: 8/16/09 at 1:16 a.m.; Suggest removal

I count 20 postings here by gibby the clown, none of which disclose his affiliations.

Let's get healthcare reform now. Let's pay our doctors and medical providers regardless of who walks in the door.

Then let's fix education. We've got the votes.

Open wide and say AAAAAHHH, TeaBaggers! Here it comes!

By henderson: 8/16/09 at 8:13 a.m.; Suggest removal

ksand,

I linked to 2 stories about the people in Oregon. Somehow you think that means I haven't read HR3200.

If you spent some time actually addressing the issues that I bring up with the bill rather than questioning my resources, we might actually have that "rational debate" you libs keep saying you want.

You have debunked NOTHING. Let's talk about the bill.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/16/09 at 8:18 a.m.; Suggest removal

well well well...
lookie here...
lookie here...
ksand99 posts that patrick r gibbons (aka gibby the clown) actually works for a think tank...
hee hee hee...
man that is pathetic...
absolutely pathetic...
get keith olbermann on the phone...
get rachel maddow on the phone...
keith and rachel have brilliantly exposed that the demonstrations at the town hall meetings were orchestrated and fake...
i suspect that they would find it completely and totally fascinating that someone from a think tank was posting on a newspaper message board...
don't you...
hee hee hee...
that is just too funny...
now...
the next logical question is...
who pays gibby the clown's salary???
hmmm???
well well well...
we just might have to get to the bottom of this...
oh by the way...
you out there gibby the clown...
you can still take our little oath at anytime...
anytime...
got that skippy...
oh by the way part deux...
birdie is brilliant...
period...
end of story...
birdie is new in town...
and loves vegas by the way...
but instantly picked up on something funny going on here...
and oh by the way part trois...
believe it or not folks...
birdie strongly suspects that there is even more funny stuff going on here...
and won't getting to the bottom of it be a blast!!!

By henderson: 8/16/09 at 8:21 a.m.; Suggest removal

there goes birdie aka skerlahdee again.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/16/09 at 8:34 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey henderson...
for a while there i thought you might be a lobbyist, a think tank clown or a paid activist...
but then you argued that obama and reid should just repeal the yucca legislation...
at that point i said to myself...
self...
this henderson clown...
he clearly has no idea what he is talking about...
so...
he probably is not a lobbyist, a think tank clown or a paid activist...
and if he is...
he will talk himself out of his job in short order...
and you know what was extra special funny...
you actually tried to belittle me...
the brilliant birdie...
imagine that...
trying to pathetically argue that i didn't know what a bill was...
remember that buddy...
hee hee hee...
how you went on and on and on about bills...
hee hee hee...
tell you what champ...
why don't you give us all a little primer on bills...
what do you say buddy...
come on henderson...
strut your big bad brain around for all to see...
we're w-a-i-t-i-n-g!!!

By gmag39: 8/16/09 at 8:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

mormonssuck, it must SUCK to be you.
You sir, are a racist pig.
That, in turn, renders every word you write totally IRRELAVENT.

By henderson: 8/16/09 at 8:49 a.m.; Suggest removal

birdie,

you suggested that we should not call the health care bill a bill, but rather a proposal.

I had to post the definition of a bill for you to see you were wrong.

With the exception of this last post to you, you do not exist to me. You are a waste of space on the Sun's comment section!

By henderson: 8/16/09 at 9:14 a.m.; Suggest removal

It would be really nice if we could actually discuss issues with the pending health care legislation. Anyone interested in "rational dialogue?"

Like why doesn't the bill include any verbiage denying illegal aliens benefits, services, or health care from non-affordability credit monies?

By airweare: 8/16/09 at 9:38 a.m.; Suggest removal

Illegal aliens number in the millions. Not including these people in our health care is inhumane.

Our system says we will care for them. You don't want to fund it. What, kind sir, are you going to tell the ER doctors (who may be making between 1 and 2 grand per shift) that their Hippocratic Oath doesn't mean squat anymore because these people don't have papers?

I think it's something we need to debate more.

They snuck into my country because they had no life in their home country. Taking a long look at this process, my great grandparents came here because they had no life back home.

Yes. I know...these folks have broken the law, and my family did it right. But...

When they're sick and they're here, I really think it's an opportunity to demonstrate something that seems like a throwback in this day, something called compassion.

Of course, the negs will fire back,"But then everybody'll pile into our country and we simply can't afford that!"

I got no argument, amigo.

If the shoe were on the other foot...

There but for fortune go you and I.

How 'bout that view from the high road, Henman?

By henderson: 8/16/09 at 10:03 a.m.; Suggest removal

As long as the motivated people of Mexico continue coming here for a better life, Mexico will always remain a 3rd world country.

We can't afford them.
Also, our democrats are telling us this bill does not include coverage for illegals.

Does it bother you that they they are openly lying to us? Also, does it make you wonder what else they are lying about?

By Birdiedreamin: 8/16/09 at 11:01 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey airweare...
bravo...
you have hit on something very very big...
many of our poor poor terribly misguided republican friends get some kind of twisted buzz off of putting others down...
makes them feel better about themselves in a sick pathetic weaselly kind of way...
you and i sir have the ability to say out loud that our ancestors were in the exact same postion at one point...
and we are very fortunate to reep the benefits of their struggle...
we are able to admit that we are lucky...
no better...
lucky...
period...
end of story...
sadly...
very sadly...
this concept gets twisted even further by these fools...
there are many many poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns who are willing to vote against their own self interests just to get that same sort of twisted buzz...
for example...
i have some poor poor terribly misguided republican friends who i know do not make over $250k...
yet these clowns continue to publically argue about obama and taxes...
it's a joke...
they are idiots...
yet these clowns do it again and again...
they are just kidding themselves...
they want to pretend in public to be something they are not...
they have been brain washed...
by cluster fox...
by rushbo the drug addict...
by almost all of talk radio...
wake up our poor poor terribly misguided republican friends...
you are being played...
like a fiddle...
twiddle dee...
twiddle dumb...
with the emphasis on dumb!!!

By airweare: 8/16/09 at 11:40 a.m.; Suggest removal

Yo birdie,

Let's hear it for recognizing the huge factor in our manifest humanity...luck!

Henman,

No man, we can not afford not to help them.

Mexico has pretty deeply established corruption. But when ya travel the world a bit, ya see how common this is. Actually it's quite prevalent. Once when working in Indonesia, I was short-changed by a money changer. A fellow professor told me what to do. Call the cops. When they arrive, bribe 'em 50,000 rupiahs. Well, at the exchange rate, that was 5 bucks. BTW, it's also way more than the average Indo makes in a day. Cops came; rupiahs changed hands. I told them what and where. We went there, and the guy just took one look at me with the cops, grabbed his wad and counted out for me the amount he had swiped. End of deal.

Mexico is still pretty much the same way. On several occasions I have had to resort to paying my way out of predicaments; it is clearly an established practice to circumvent justice with
pesos.

I have a pretty good feeling that in our lifetime, we won't see much change in the situation. They have some resources to develop, but as long as they remain corrupt, people will wade that river and keep on coming.

I'll be honest; I don't have the funding answer. I do, however, think that if you were in need of medical help and were refused because you're too tall or weren't born to Tasmanian parents or couldn't speak Russian, that you would have some reservations about the ethics of the decision. I think you'd be right.

And of course doing the right thing for one patient may bring others in droves. I do understand the quandary. I'm just soft on the side of the poor old sick person.

And part of that is the way my mother was murdered at a hospital. They let her die. Partly incompetence; partly intention.

No man. I got no answer for the money. But if my momma and I had not been so black or in the South during the Jim Crow days, she'd still be with us.

By Green_Dragon_Regular: 8/16/09 at 11:42 a.m.; Suggest removal

@Birdiedreamin-

Seriously, after reading just one of your posts, I feel like I was just force-fed a giant bag of jumbo marshmallows.

For the love of words and logic, please take a class, get a new stylebook, and try to cite facts and sources.

By henderson: 8/16/09 at 12:34 p.m.; Suggest removal

airweare,

That very long monlogue of yours did not answer either of the questions I asked.

Does it bother you that our lawmakers are lying to us about providing care to illegals? And, does it make you wonder what else they are lying about?

By henderson: 8/16/09 at 5:17 p.m.; Suggest removal

Good news mormonsuck!

WHOOOOOOHOOOOO!

Look birdie, el lobo, gmag, mred, airweare!

It's working!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_car...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/16/u...

RIP TO THE PUBLIC OPTION!

Now, what else do we want to get thrown out of this peace of crap bill??

By lazyfaire: 8/16/09 at 6:09 p.m.; Suggest removal

"wherever the BIRD BRAINS thought of this scam!!"

That would be Massachusetts. (Compliments of Mitt Romney.)

By SgtRock: 8/16/09 at 7:28 p.m.; Suggest removal

I feel sorry for the koolaid lib crowd.

Obama is a sorry excuse for being a leader.

You guys were running around with your heads cut off on health care. He did not present a plan and he did not push for specifics.

Some of you guys were pushing for single payer and he was not.

Some of you guys were pushing for universal coverage and he was not.

Now, it looks like the White House is backing away from the public option (sssh.......Obama never cared for the public option in the first place).

Obama is making you look like idiots.

He provided zero leadership on this topic even though his party has large majorities in both houses.

Cap and Trade....dead.

Major health care reform....dead....(you will get minor health care reform)

Union Card Check...dead.

Don't Ask and Don't Tell is still offical policy of the Defense dept.

They are not even dreaming of repealing the Defense of Marriage Act.

We are still going to be in Iraq for a few more years.

We are on a road path for being in Afghanistan for probably at least another decade.

He is going to keep terrorist lock up for years without a trial.

He is prohibiting Habeas Corpus to captured terrorist.

He is ordering the death of suspected terrorists that are living in allied countries and at the same time the wife and children of the terrorist are getting kill, too. Those murders are happening outside the due process of the law. How come he does not ask the allied power to arrest those bad guys? Why murder them and their families? Why are we not giving them a day in court ...to give them due process?

He appointed a moderate to the court to replace a liberal.

Other than the major bailouts of corporations and the $20 a week tax cuts what exactly has Obama done with his victory to make his lib koolaid friends happy?

Nada one dam thing.............

Many of you guys charged the max out your credit cards to fund Obama's campaign. I would be asking for a refund.

By henderson: 8/16/09 at 8:47 p.m.; Suggest removal

You know what Rock?

I'm not aware of all the killing you're talking about, but I have to say,

Nicely done!

Today was a huge victory for freedom and a very sore and sorry disappointment for those that worship Obama and thought he had the stones to go full steam ahead regardless of conservative opinion! You know those democrats had to be dropping off of this bill like flies for him to actually concede the public option!
I'm glad he realizes that he can't have everything he wants in the first 6 months of office.

Glad to know he still feels the heat.
God Bless America!

By gmag39: 8/16/09 at 10:37 p.m.; Suggest removal

WOW!
Such an intelligent bunch. Especially that future Nobel Laureate, "mormonssuck".
The sun will rise tomorrow, kiddies, and you'll still be uneducated, uninformed, ignorant and clueless. God bless ya for the humor!
Nighty-night.

By qwill: 8/17/09 at 12:23 a.m.; Suggest removal

Question: Is it health-care reform or health-cost reform?

By Birdiedreamin: 8/17/09 at 9:06 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey private pebble...
hee hee hee...
hey mormons...
i think you are on to something...
something big...
you clowns need to push this birther thing further...
you go boy...
birthers unite...
in fact...
i think the poor poor terribly misguided republican party should make that the central theme of their platform in 2010 and 2012...
go birthers go!!!
go birthers go!!!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/17/09 at 9:14 a.m.; Suggest removal

well...
it's a little after 9:00 am...
do you think poor poor terribly misguided republican patrick r gibbons is about to punch in and start posting???
hmmm???
notice he posted nothing over the weekend...
must have been off the clock...
hee hee hee...
and the funniest part of all...
you poor poor terribly misguided republican fools believe the spin that he spews...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...
you out there buddy...
always remember this partner...
you can take our little oath at anytime...
anytime...
got that skippy!!!

By henderson: 8/17/09 at 11:09 a.m.; Suggest removal

birdie,

Look!

Today is another great day for FREEDOM!!!

Today we not only celebrate the death of the Public Option...but today we also celebrate the death of another great big fat Obama lie...

RIP to flag@whitehouse.gov !

That's right freedom lovers! See, first they tell us to send them any "fishy" information. Then when they are cornered about it they say, "We aren't actually retaining any of that information!" Thus admitting that they are either lying or in serious violation of the law that says the White House cannot delete any emails!

So which one of those do you Obama lovers want your president to be. Do you want him to be the guy that tells you to report dissenters to the government? Do you want him to be the guy that lies about what he's doing with our private information? Or do you want him to be the guy that is breaking a very important law by deleting the emails he requested?

Who am I kidding, the guy could use the flag for toilet paper and you people wouldn't care.

RIP to the Public Option and to flag@whitehouse.gov.

God Bless America

By Birdiedreamin: 8/17/09 at 11:42 a.m.; Suggest removal

lies...
you want to talk about lies henderson...
i'll tell you one that sticks in my craw...
how about iraq has wmd...
that little lie cost us...
let's see...
over 4,000 dead americans...
over $1 trillion when all is said and done...
so please...
don't talk to me about lies...
those little lies should put w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer behind bars...
and karl the disgusting should join them for trying to use the us attorney offices as a political weapon...
so you see buddy...
you poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns have absolutely no ground to stand on when it comes to lies...
besides...
you have not proven a single thing...
got that skipster!!!

By SgtRock: 8/17/09 at 11:47 a.m.; Suggest removal

I am glad that Birdie is pissed at those people who said Iraq had WMd'S.

Clinton and his sec. of State said right up to the end of adminstration that they believed that Iraq had WMD's.

Go get them, Birdie!!!!!

By henderson: 8/17/09 at 12:21 p.m.; Suggest removal

birdie,

So you don't care that Obama keeps lying? I find that fascinating!

I have to say, watching the Obamacrats retreat is extremely satisfying! I think we'll be seeing a lot more of this in the future.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/17/09 at 12:53 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey private pebble...
who gives s damn what clinton believed...
he didn't start a war...
w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer did...
invaded a foreign counrty...
got americans killed...
wasted $1 trillion minimum...
all based on lies...
remember when they planted the story in the new york times...
and then had w the scum bag liar loser clown quote it in a speech to the nation...
"aluminum tubes out of africa"...
remember that private...
good times...
so...
bottom line...
your post amounts to nothing more than flinging crap against the wall hoping it sticks...
which is basically all you poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns do these days...
bottom line part deux...
w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer should be in jail!!!

By airweare: 8/17/09 at 1:53 p.m.; Suggest removal

I remember Bush/Cheney's proposal to Oregon. It was before 9/11. "We feds will handle cutting down the forests that have grown into SUCH a fire hazard. The cost: just the biggest trees." It came out just before Mr Halliburton/Bring it on Bush went to some oil producing country in the mideast with a proposal quite similar in nature and tone: 'We'll keep the peace. The cost: just some oil."

Even Senator Smith, an intelligent and moderate Republican from Oregon, spoke of the incredibly stupid proposal in a crowd of laughing reporters. Poor guy had no choice but to wail about the forest protection plan.

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