A circus atmosphere

By Houstonjac: 8/10/09 at 3:04 a.m.; Suggest removal

In the form of town-hall rallies on health care, liberals are getting a dose of their own medicine, and they don't like it. The Obama administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress are bent on shoving down the throats of the American people a health care agenda that has outraged masses of people. Both the administration and the leaders in Congress mistakenly believe that the election in 2008 gave them a mandate to do anything they want. Nothing could be further from reality.

They are finding that out, and they do not know how to deal with the passionate and powerful pushback by the American people. The rallying cry in town-hall meetings across the nation on health care is "You work for us." Still, the Obama administration and congressional representatives are refusing to get the true message -- either listen to the people or get out. They ignore the will of the people at their own political peril.

The existence of "group think" in the Obama camp will be the source of its undoing, such as labeling the throngs of passionate crowds attending town-hall meetings as "mobs." It is the will of the people that will win the ultimate debate over health care in this country, not administration personnel and congressional representatives who refuse to listen to their bosses -- the American people.

By lvsundog: 8/10/09 at 3:36 a.m.; Suggest removal

Hey houstonjac, that is not "pushback by the american people". It is oraganized intimidation by a fraudster.
The rallying cry of those who are moneyed by the pharma/sickness industry is: "I've got mine - too bad about you suckers."

By POWERPLAY: 8/10/09 at 3:57 a.m.; Suggest removal

The Democrats can cry all they want the silent majority is now no longer silent get use to it and remember this throngs of passionate crowds are not always liberals. This is something that the news media is just going to have to get use to from now on.

By just_mike: 8/10/09 at 5:06 a.m.; Suggest removal

Powerplay and Houstonjac are both insiteful
people. Its time we conservatives stood up
and shouted "enough".

By labdaddy: 8/10/09 at 5:45 a.m.; Suggest removal

In the 18th century, King George lll didn't listen either when the patriots began rebelling over unjust taxation. We all know what happened as a result. Apparently BHO hasn't learned from history.

By Houstonjac: 8/10/09 at 6 a.m.; Suggest removal

Any attempt by the Obama administration and the Democrat controlled Congress to force on the American people a health reform plan that does not take into account the will of the People will mean political suicide in the 2010 and 2012 elections. When 68% of Americans are currently satisfied with their health coverage
any major change in such coverage, which is forced on the American people, will be highly unpopular and politically and morally wrong.

The main fact that both the administration and the Democrat controlled Congress should recognize is that their proposed health care plan is not popular with an overriding number of Americans. Instead the administration, together with a number of key Democrat congressional representatives, is stubbornly adhering to a "group think" mentality which leads them to perceive the broad based outrage and opposition to their plan as being only by small organized "mobs" of far right extremists. They adhere to this group think mentality at their own political peril.

Instead of promoting a "government option" with major cuts in Medicare to pay for it, any reform package should focus on a private option with reform legislation that will eliminate pre existing conditions restrictions, make insurance plans portable, permit interstate competition between insurance carriers, and provide subsidies for eligible Americans who are currently uninsured and cannot afford coverage.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 6:36 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey houstonjac...
"outraged masses"...
"throngs of passionate crowds"...
"overriding number of Americans"...
come on my little hyperbolic friend...
these protests are organized by the insurance companies and others with vested interests in the outcome...
period...
end of story...
so...
your obsession with trying to characterize it as something else gives me pause...
makes me wonder who you are...
who are you houstonjac???
what do you do for a living???
do you work for the insurance industry???
are you a lobbyist???
are you a political operative???
hmmm???

By JahReb: 8/10/09 at 6:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

Houstonjac,

If you are so positive that passing Obama's Health Care Reform Bill will lead to the dems demise in 2010, and Obama's demise in 2012...shouldn't you be all for it then?

If the American people will turn on Obama, as every republican seems to claim...it would seem to me as if you'd gladly give Obama the rope to hang himself. Just step aside and watch the disaster unfold, then come in like heroes in 2012 to rescue America from the evil Obama empire, right?

The fact that the repubs are doing everything they can to destroy this bill, says exactly the opposite. You are afraid it will work. You are afraid the American public will love it. You are afraid it will only make Obama stronger.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 6:53 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey labdaddy...
it cracks me up when you poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns raise the issue of patriotism...
w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer raised the issue of patriotism against anyone who objected to the iraq war...
man o man...
we could have avoided the disaster known as the iraq war and saved over 4,000 american lives and over $1 trillion if more folks had been "un-partriotic"...
sarah dumb as a bag of rocks palin always invokes this bogus patriotic concept...
my fav...
when she resigned she tried to take a swipe at the media by invoking this bogus patriotic concept and the troops dying in iraq...
can you imagine...
sorry sarah dumb as a bag of rocks palin...
the media exposed you for who you are...
a terribly terribly dumb, unqualified, opportunist who celebrates her averageness...
it has nothing to do with troops...
or patriotism...
got that my poor poor terribly misguided republican friends!!!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 7 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey johnnie boy ensign...
you still out here buddy???
are you still still sucking your thumb in the fetal position on mommy and daddy's basement floor...
hmmm???
tell you what johnnie boy...
i think you just might hold the key to this healthcare crisis...
it's all about dollars and cents...
right...
so...
why don't you just ask mommy and daddy to write some more checks???
problem solved...
you are a hero...
you get re-elected in a landslide...
what do you say buddy???

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 7:17 a.m.; Suggest removal

They keep thinking that the angry opposition is part of some large "conservative organization or conspiracy", they continue to ignore constituents, they hide, but they will have to face us at election time!

I'll tell you something else, I have attended events that are freckled with mostly conservatives, lots of independents, and to my surprise, PLENTY of democrats that are sorry they voted for this joker. It certainly didn't take long for the bloom to fall off the rose.

Change is coming for sure!

By GordonShumway: 8/10/09 at 8:06 a.m.; Suggest removal

These mobs are just a pawn of ultra right wing talk show hosts. Candid debate is the last thing they want. They're victims of an authoritarian figure just like those in the past who have followed zealots like Jim Jones. It's pitiful to watch these weak people being.

By ezr2c: 8/10/09 at 8:34 a.m.; Suggest removal

Look at yourselves people!They divide us to keep us from REALLY getting what we want! If we all got along, it would affect THEIR bottom line, not OURS!!!!Open your eyes to reality & see the war they fund both sides of!!!Respect eachother's opinions, & smile at eachother!If we work together on this, we will come out on top. Stay divided-we lose BIG TIME!

By edgewise: 8/10/09 at 8:36 a.m.; Suggest removal

The Republicans want to whine and moan and intimidate (all those angry white people!) but they still haven't told us what their plan is!

How will they fix the skyrocketing medical bills? How will they provide affordable prescription drugs for Americans? How will they reduce the spending on health care?

They have no ideas, they sat on their keesters for the past eight years while medical costs rose around 6% per year. Their buddies in the insurance industries paid for dinners and trips, and the go-along get-along Republicans swilled like pigs.

Don't forget, the last time the Republicans tried to "help" health care, they barred us from cheaper drugs while creating a program which ended up costing TRIPLE what they told us it would!!

Staying the course is not an alternative! What is the Republican plan????????? Henderson, Houstonjac and labdaddy don't have a clue!

By NLV-Indep13: 8/10/09 at 8:43 a.m.; Suggest removal

The arrogance of the Democrats is truly amazing. In the the face of protest, they whither like shrinking violets, resorting to name calling behind a cordon of police and union activists (who you can be sure, like the overpaid members of Congress, have better medical plans than your average guy on the street). Maybe if they'd bothered to read their plan and then actually tried to explain it and their support for it, their complaints would be taken seriously, but all they've tried to do so far is mouth a few bumper stickers and, when the public doesn't buy their pablum, run for cover & whine. It's time to vote them ALL out -- Reid, Gibbons, Buckley, and Ensign (in 2012). Maybe the major parties would finally get a clue if we voted in Liberterians/Greens...

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 8:44 a.m.; Suggest removal

This is one sick and elitist editorial

"It is as though these mobs are serving as mouthpieces for health insurers and pharmaceutical companies, the very parties that have blocked much-needed health care reform."

Give me a break. People are disagreeing with you because you are very likely wrong on this issue. There is no conspiracy theory, we just disagree. Grow up.

By ezr2c: 8/10/09 at 8:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

Recognize an ad campaign when you see one!!! No person or issue gets this much airtime for free!!
This is all being paid for by special interest groups that will benefit from the outcome.Campaign contributions to congress members will insure this doesn't get talked about
in PUBLIC where they can say the wrong thing. They WILL do it over the phone though, so they don't have to lie to our faces.It is all about reelection for them!!UNITE AMERICA!END CORPORATE SYNDROME ONCE & FOR ALL! It's not a right or a left plan, it's an American plan.

By xtra: 8/10/09 at 8:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

I went to a Tea Party. I had never heard of "astroturf" although I knew that liberal protestors had long used school buses, organizers such as Union Strong Arms, children and outrageous tactics during the rowdy, rude and abusive "protests" ..I can name liberal events and tactics ad nauseum..Palin was hung in effigy in California and as "free speech" the "art" was allowed to be displayed for as long as the "protester" needed to express himself.
After 8 years of the newspapers addressing President Bush as GWB..does anyone wonder that the current president is addressed as BO? I refuse to use the "old fashioned" curtesy form lest I be politically incorrect. BO it is!
The first time I show up..I am a called a "mob" "a radical right wing nut" "unAmerican" "A swastika carrying nazi" by Government elected officials.
Did I get paid? Do I listen to Limbaugh?
No..I hunted up a Tea Party to voice my concerns..and I got an education about the hatred and hypocrisy of what most call the "liberal left"
I will never vote Democrat again..Never!

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 8:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

Edge and other "progressives",

This is NOT a debate about Obama Care vs. the status quo. There have been alternatives to fix health care problems in America and here are a few examples,

1) Drop insurance mandates. Each mandate drives up the cost by forcing people to buy coverage they may not want
2) Drop restrictions on health insurance competition. Nevada, like every other state prohibits people from buying out of state policies. The lack of competition and the small risk pools keep prices high
3) STOP TAXING insurance policies
4) Encourage health savings accounts since the biggest problem is the fact that insurance is a third party payer system (like government health care and that means it will always inflate prices rapidly as people don't carefully shop for the best service at the best price for their medical needs).

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 9:02 a.m.; Suggest removal

Patrick

Those are crap. We know they're crap.

How does it help people with pre-existing conditions?

What about max-outs and lifetime caps on coverage?

What about the high cost of pharmaceuticals and perpetual patents on those drugs?

They're snake oil and hokum and I for one am TIRED of listening to you drone on and on about "free market solves all".

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 9:03 a.m.; Suggest removal

And by the way - getting health care is NOT like shopping for a car. We can't "shop around" for the best deal because by the time you get second, third and fourth opinions (assuming you can afford to) you could have PAID for the original treatment path.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 9:08 a.m.; Suggest removal

Free markets don't solve everything but they sure solve a lot of problems - especially since a lot of problems are created by well intentioned government policies with bad results. This health care problem is a lot deeper than saying "pass a law" ... this isn't magic and you can't clap your hands and make the problems go away. But you - everyone - needs to think a little deeper.

1) pre-existing conditions problem exists ONLY when people sign up for a new insurance policy. MOST people have insurance policies because of their jobs and the way government incentives have been put in place people lose their coverage when they lose or change their jobs. The free market reforms would allow people to retain their existing policies with their new jobs, even in a new state, with a new company or even allow them to purchase the policy themselves.

2) max-outs and lifetime caps on coverage? Competition between companies will likely fix that if its really a big problem. Right now government limits competition to in state companies only.

3) pharmaceutical drugs? Drop restrictions on pharmaceutical competition of course. The US has severe restricts on foreign drugs.

Doug, this isn't snake oil, its the ONLY sane and rational solution to SOLVING health care problems without creating monstrous cost problems down the road or having to ration care and services, or having to destroy future innovation which could save FAR MORE lives than universal health care ever could.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 9:11 a.m.; Suggest removal

"And by the way - getting health care is NOT like shopping for a car. We can't "shop around" for the best deal because by the time you get second, third and fourth opinions (assuming you can afford to) you could have PAID for the original treatment path."

It is far more important than shopping for a car. We absolutely should be shopping around for the best doctors at the best price. Why on earth would you want to leave your life in the hands of doctors who earn their income without having to prove to anyone they provide the best services at the best prices?

It is absolute silliness to suggest that we cannot or should not do that. And the fact that there are such things as emergencies does not give license to ration the entire system under universal health care. You could not have a more bogus or fallacious foundation for a public enterprise if you tried -- the existence of a universal program exists to serve all based on the existence of rare occurrences for a few. That does not cut mustard for any rational thinking person.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 9:13 a.m.; Suggest removal

Oh and doctors who don't except insurance, only cash and HSAs post their prices for their services. SO yes, you can shop around and do so for free. Also, there is NOTHING to suggest that services helping people find doctors won't exist - like a consumer reports for medical services.

By ezr2c: 8/10/09 at 9:16 a.m.; Suggest removal

First things first.Stop funding wars.No matter how opposed we are to more funding, congress continues to approve it-even with 5 billion $$'s for the IMF attached to it.I say save the soldiers-send the politicians! Let's see how fast they end it then!

By ezr2c: 8/10/09 at 9:21 a.m.; Suggest removal

There are doctors who have taken it upon themselves to charge patients between $49-79 a month for unlimited # of visits in a month for Primary Care.

By getalife: 8/10/09 at 9:30 a.m.; Suggest removal

Instead of Democrats getting bent out of shape at conservatives, why don't they call their member of Congress and let them have it.

The Democrats are stalling this bloated pig, not the Republicans. I have said it before, the Republicans couldn't vote for dog catcher they are so ineffective.

Yet, the all powerful, all knowing, just and wise Democrats can't pass this junk. Wake up Dems, the problem is your party, not the party of "no"

The reason Dems won't push the vote is simple; they don't want this sucker having just their prints on it.

We need health care reform, we don't need a nuclear bomb dropped on a fragile system.

By KillerB: 8/10/09 at 9:46 a.m.; Suggest removal

This is the price elected representatives pay for their jobs. They represent the body most responsible for this country's plunge into the worst economy since the 30s. People's lives are ruined for good and you expect them to be polite??

If they can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

By labdaddy: 8/10/09 at 10:12 a.m.; Suggest removal

Birdiedreamin ,

Stop with the 4,000 lives lost in Iraq until the liberal media starts reporting on BHO's war in Afghanistam. We lost more US troops in July than any other month of the 8 year Afghan war. Anybody surprised this is hushed up in the lefty news? The press did a daily body count during Bush's reign. Ignoring BHO's war doesn't mean it isn't happening.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 10:22 a.m.; Suggest removal

america...
the place to go if you want a boob job...
hands down...
we are the best place on the planet for boob jobs...
yippie...
problem is...
we rank 33rd in infant mortality...
how pathetic is that...
33rd...
funny thing though...
our poor poor terribly misguided republican friends could care less about infant mortality...
the poor poor terribly misguided republican party's stance on infant mortality seems to be...
screw 'em...
if those little kids die...
too bad...
not my problem...
i will not pay one red cent in extra taxes so that those little kids live...
no way...
my beloved tax dollars are mine...
screw those pesky kids...
sad...
truly truly sad...
our poor poor terribly misguided republican friends have no heart...
no soul...
no compassion...
no sense of community...
it's all me me me...
and screw you...
screw those innocent kids who are dying...
not my problem...
pathetic!!!
absolutely pathetic!!!

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 10:34 a.m.; Suggest removal

This health care bill is downright scary.

You only need to go 16 pages in before they start talking about what health care WE can have. It talks about being "grandfathered in" with your policy, no new enrollments in your private insurance, and from the moment this bill goes active, you are no longer able to simply purchase private insurance. It must be part of an Exchange - participating health benefits plan. If you are not granfathered in to a policy at any point after this becomes effective, no private insurer can take your money and give you coverage without you now being part of the Obamacare plan.

People need to read this bill! They keep saying, "if you like your insurance, you can keep it!" What they aren't telling you is that if you lose it for any reason, or decide to change insurance companies, no company can take you without making you part of the Exchange - participating health benefits plan. Absolutely no changes to your existing policy can take place after the day before this bill goes live. No terms or conditions, including benefits and coverage. I am not positive, but I think this means that if you have a baby after Obamacare goes live, your insurance company may not be able to just add them to your coverage, it looks like your new baby might have to be part of the "Exchange - participating health benefits plan." I see nothing that "grandfathers" in new dependents to your current private/employer based insurance!

These politicians are lying to the American people trying to convince us that private insurance is still available under this plan. We have to vote every single one of these lying jokers out of office.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 10:36 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey labdaddy...
the iraq war was based on lies...
period...
end of story...
got that skippy...
now...
the saddest part of all is...
w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer had bin laden pinned down in afghanistan...
he was in their damn sights...
but they just couldn't wait to start their war in iraq...
a war based on lies...
wherein 4,000 brave american died needlessly...
wherein over $1 trillion will be wasted...
so...
rather than finish business in afghanistan...
they just had to start their fraudulent war in iraq...
so they moved troops from afghanistan to iraq...
and in doing so...
they let bin laden get away...
bottom line...
the afghan war is yet another shining example of how president obama is stuck cleaning up yet another mess left behind by w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer...
so you see my friend...
your attempt to criticize obama for the trouble in afghanistan...
well..
it is pathetic really...
absolutley pathetic!!!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 10:50 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey henderson...
which bill is that...
the fox news bill???
hmmm???
you know...
i didn't think there was just one bill...
but that there were several...
in fact...
isn't it more accurate to call them proposals at this point...
and not bills...
so...
call me crazy henderson...
but i just think you or your poor poor terribly misguided republican friends just might be making stuff up...
trying to scare people...
kinda like sarah dumb as a bag of rocks palin's comments on senior death squads or some other nonsense designed to scare seniors...
pathetic...
absolutely pathetic...
good god man...
how do you sleep at night...

By Our_Linn: 8/10/09 at 11:02 a.m.; Suggest removal

"Conservative mobs?" Really? Are the Sun editors now getting their talking points directly from the Democratic Party?

Shouldn't the Sun at least try to act as if it has had an original thought?

I guess not.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 11:06 a.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie,

Do you think you're the next E.E. Cummings?

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 11:10 a.m.

Comment removed by staff.

By SPARKY: 8/10/09 at 11:17 a.m.; Suggest removal

I have noticed that a lot of these violent "Nazi" protersters share with me the same hairline and belt size. If they become violent, I gurantee it will be brief.
Am I the only one who has noticed that physical violence was not a problem until Obama sent in his "Brownshirts" to push around, beat up and insult senior citizens?

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 11:29 a.m.; Suggest removal

"Am I the only one who has noticed that physical violence was not a problem until Obama sent in his "Brownshirts" to push around, beat up and insult senior citizens?"

You got proof, sparky? Or are you going to trot out the one guy in St. Louis who took such a flop it would make European soccer players blanch? Who, from the video, got up and walked around for several minutes...but the next day was in a wheelchair and doped to the gills on pain meds?

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 11:30 a.m.; Suggest removal

You're cute Sparky ;)

Excellent point too! Who's sending who to townhalls! There was no violence until the Dems sent their cronies to push around their constituents.

Excellent point! Who's really sending people to these town halls? That is what you call "staged violence." Nobody was pushing anyone around until the dems sent their cronies out to push around their constituents!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 11:39 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey gibbons...
it's just little ole me...
the brilliant birdiedreamin...
a purveyor of truth, justice and the america way...
put on this planet to punch you poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns in the mouth...
you see my little friend...
your guys w the scum bag liar loser clown and cheney the evil doer...
well...
they left thing in pretty bad shape...
two ongoing wars...
one based on lies...
over 4,000 dead soldiers...
over $1 trillion wasted for nothing...
a huge national debt...
a huge deficit...
a real mess...
so...
quite frankly...
we are sick and tired of the nonsense you clowns spew...
like rushbo the oxy head...
like anne coulter the ugliest woman on the planet...
like fox news the network based on arrogance, hate and lies...
and on and on and on...
you clowns have fallen into a cult like zombie trance...
it is sad...
really really sad...
but fear not my poor poor terribly misguided republican friend...
birdie is on the scene...
i will keep punching you poor poor terribly misguided republican zombies in the mouth...
and maybe...
just maybe...
some of you poor poor terribly misguided republican zombies will wake up!!!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 11:48 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey henderson...
are you related to sarah dumb as a bag of rocks palin...
hmmm...
anyway...
my point was...
aren't there several bills floating out there...
so for you to pretend that there is just one...
well...
it's a tad misleading...
wouldn't you say...
hmmm...
you know what else is really really funny...
when someone as dim-witted as you tries to pretend that he is actually teaching someone as brilliant as me something...
now that is funny...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 11:50 a.m.; Suggest removal

birdiesheeple

LOL! You don't even know what a bill is!

You haven't even looked at the health care bill, so why don't you find it, and just read pages 1-20 then come right back here and tell me I'm lying!

Until then, shut up and let the thinking people that don't wear helmets all the time talk!

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 11:52 a.m.; Suggest removal

I'm not Republican -- and I've never joined a political party. Also, ad-hom does not add to the debate.

And I'm not misguided"recent research, including some done at Harvard University finds that health insurance rates did not have a statistically significant impact on life expectancy in the US.

I've also proposed, along with many others, very rational policy solutions to our very real problems with health care. I'm also cognizant enough to recognize that more government is NOT a good solution to government created problems. While there are plenty of reasons to criticize private health insurance, left-wing critics, perhaps yourself included, seem to operate their critique in a vacuum by completely ignoring government incentives, regulations and restrictions as if they had no bearing on current health care costs.

I don't think people like you are brainwashed or pawns of some left-wing socialist cabal, you're just misinformed - and there is something about people on the left caring more about intentions than outcomes. That leads you to vilify people who make profits and cheer those who promise good deeds -- whether or not those promises produce good deeds. Perhaps this is why decades of funding increases and decades of failure in public schools are ignored and private options for public education are vilified.

By labdaddy: 8/10/09 at 11:58 a.m.; Suggest removal

henderson,

That tin foil hat birdie wears to keep the voices out is a helmet? Thought it was some kind of Dimocrat fashion statement!

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 12:09 p.m.; Suggest removal

"That leads you to vilify people who make profits"

I only villify those who make profit with a side result of human suffering.

We KNOW (thanks to whistleblowers) that insurance companies hand out bonuses based on denying claims.

We KNOW that insurance companies put pressure on hospitals to "treat and street" patients that are uninsured or underinsured.

We KNOW that insurance companies practice rescission for ridiculous reasons such as failure to disclose even a consultation that doesn't result in treatment (do you remember every head cold or doctor's visit you've ever had?).

So why should I cheer for them?

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 12:16 p.m.; Suggest removal

birdiesheeplehelmethead,

Funny! You don't have a clue what's going on!

Please enlighten us all as to how many health care bills are currently being considered by Congress known as Obamacare? Maybe you get it better like this:

obamacare...
hmmmm...
another clue...
it's the bill we've all been talking about...
hmmmm...
wow wee...
it's really long...
over 1000 pages...
hmmmm...
stupid bird...
bird brain...
hmmmm...

When you don't even know what the eff is going on in congress, or what a bill is, or what is in Obamacare, you have some nerve assuming republicans think only what rush and hannity tell them when you haven't even looked at the bill with your own eyes. How on earth can you say that others are wrong who have read the bill, when you've never seen it or read it.

You are stupid bird brained hypocrite. Nobody should listen to stupid birds anymore.

By neiman1: 8/10/09 at 12:22 p.m.; Suggest removal

Protesters bussed in by SEIU outside AIG employees homes were not mobs. ACORN groups invading banks with bull horns were not mobs, just poor people demanding their piece of the pie.

The mob label is doing nothing but polarizing legitimate protesters and VOTERS who will be heard in this next election. 1994 will look like it was the good old days for democrats.

Today Pelosi used the McCarthy tactics of labeling those in dissent as UnAmerican. When will the hearings begin?

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 12:22 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson:

Which bill? There are 5 of them - 3 in the House and 2 in the Senate. None of them are the same.

Some have a public option, some don't.

Some cap subsidies at X level of the poverty line, while others cap it at Y.

So it's all going to go to conference committee anyway.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 12:27 p.m.; Suggest removal

We also know insurance companies deny claims to people who commit fraud - failing to identify problems is fraud. If you lie about your existing problems you essentially force all those other people to unknowingly take your risk on as part of their own. That simply is not fair or just.

We know the government requires hospitals to treat all patients regardless of medical coverage.

Doug, profits are merely the reward for using resources efficiently. In a free and competitive market, the more profits are made the better we know services are being provided and how much they are valued by the customer. In order to make profits you have to provide a quality service at a price people are willing to pay.

Government faces no such incentives and so with the best of intentions can produce the worst of results. Public schools are the best examples of this. Despite 150% increase in spending in Nevada we have some of the worst public schools in the country. With 50 years of desegregation minorities are still out performed by whites. Poor kids and minorities still end up with the worst teachers and our graduation rate is getting lower and lower.

Clearly, supporters of public education did not intended minorities and poor kids to get a consistently substandard education with the worst teachers producing the worst possible results, but this is exactly what has happened.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 12:30 p.m.; Suggest removal

"failing to identify problems is fraud"

Again, do you remember EVERY doctor's visit or illness you've every had from the time you were born until now?

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 12:37 p.m.; Suggest removal

That is what records are for...and it is very, very, very, very rare that they can pointpoint a meeting between you and a doctor and say "ahaha so you did have cancer"

No its not like that, but this is what you are implying. The blulk of the people tossed off went to a doctor the doctor told them they have a may have a certain problem, then they go and buy insurance and leave that information out....maybe by accident or on purpose.

Once again, you have to turn to a rare event to justify coercion against all on everything.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 12:39 p.m.; Suggest removal

They do not care about colds and flus, or past broken bones, You do NOT have to list every doctor visit that is just rhetorical nonsense.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 12:44 p.m.; Suggest removal

"Once again, you have to turn to a rare event to justify coercion against all on everything."

And once again YOU want to bow down to the great God profit and tell the rest of us to go suck eggs if we don't have the money.

So you can take a flying leap into Lake Mead for all I care. You, who puts money above lives, are the worst scum of this Earth and I would look you in the eye and tell you that.

By getalife: 8/10/09 at 1:29 p.m.; Suggest removal

DD, I am sorry you are so angry, call your beloved Democratic Congress person and tell them to vote for this Bill.

They will be very polite and blow you off.

After your phone call you can post about how your congress person was unduly influenced by the evil Republicans and the party of "no".

You know the same folks you wrote about after BHO took office.

How is that mandate working for you?

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 1:40 p.m.; Suggest removal

For those of you still confused, I am referring to Obamacare, H.R. 3200.

Read it. This bill cannot be passed!

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 1:57 p.m.; Suggest removal

No matter how polite, nice, and rational you try to be debates between conservatives/libertarians and left-wingers on health care reform it seems to result in the opinionated left winger devolving into Rush Limbaugh with irrational angry shouts and grunts (not all people on the left do this on healthcare reform debates but many seem to be completely unhinged about rational free marketers providing a solid well explained alternative to ObamaCare).

Here is an example (from the Ed Schultz show): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJ1oyhTZ...

It seems that to the far left it's always ObamaCare vs No Reform. This is demagoguery plane and simple. Some people on the left don't even want to take the time to listen about alternatives.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 1:59 p.m.; Suggest removal

Doug is also a clear example. You are no better than me. All people's lives have value. How much should the world spend to keep you alive?

$1 million
$100 million
$100 billion
$100 trillion?

If we spent the all the resources of the world saving your life everyone else would die. How many people would you put to death to save your own life?

So don't give me this crap about putting money ahead of lives. Grow up and start thinking rationally.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 2:09 p.m.; Suggest removal

"So don't give me this crap about putting money ahead of lives. Grow up and start thinking rationally."

I thought I could handle listening to this again.

I was wrong.

Now all I want to do is put my fist through the monitor at the stupidity, the callousness, and the out-and-out lack of human decency I see from people like you, Patrick.

When it comes to MY life, you bet your boots I'm a bit irrational. Wouldn't you be if it was YOUR life?

Don't tell that you would just lay down and die because you don't have the money to pay for treatment. That's would be a lie - a bald-faced lie. You would do EVERYTHING in your power to stay alive - that is the most basic prinicple grounded into every human being everywhere: self-preservation.

So don't tell me to calm down. I'm mad. And I don't intend to just roll over and die for anyone. Least of all you.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 2:21 p.m.; Suggest removal

"When it comes to MY life, you bet your boots I'm a bit irrational. Wouldn't you be if it was YOUR life?"

Maybe, maybe not. But one thing is for certain, I would certainly not think it fair and just to force other people to die for me.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 2:25 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey henderson...
seems to me...
the only one who was confused was you...
hee hee hee...
there can be more than one bill...
got that skippy...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 2:26 p.m.; Suggest removal

Maybe the Obama death panel can do like a lottery every year. Doug and those like him could go into a lottery to see who gets the operation they need, or the kidney replacement, who gets dialysis that year. Like they do for hunting licenses.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 2:32 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson, what you just stated is a flat-out LIE. Even Republican congressmen have stated it's a LIE.

There is NO SUCH PROVISION in those bills. NONE.

Back it up with the page and quote, or apologize for lying.

By cpo: 8/10/09 at 2:33 p.m.; Suggest removal

First thing that is going to happen, its buried on page 555, anyone over 60 is cut off Health care, unless they pay for it themselves. The Obama death panel on page 720, while they can make the decision who lives or dies, illegal people (or whatever you call them) are hands off. Reason, to further better relations with other countries. If you have good organs, you must donate them, and will be euthanized if a teacher, or anyone from the media needs your organs This is on page 871. Time to start kicking these liberals behinds and take back America, preferably to 1958, those were the days Henderson those were the days....

By edgewise: 8/10/09 at 2:33 p.m.; Suggest removal

henderson just repeats whatever he hears on Limbaugh or reads on the Drudge Report without fact checking it. Last week he was repeating the lie that Obama wanted to eliminate private insurance. He doesn't know how to stop himself.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 2:36 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey doug...
you can not reason with our poor poor terribly misguided republican friends...
they are frauds...
they will lie to keep every last penny in their pocket...
they will say anything...
absolutely anything...
for a penny...
and then smile...
that poor poor terribly misguided republican smile...
w the scum bag liar loser clown was great at that smile...
so...
my advise is just stop trying to reason with them...
and start punching them in the mouth...
it is the only thing that works...
trust me...
and besides....
it is a hell of a lot of fun!!!

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 2:37 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie,

You still have not yet added a single thing of importance or value to this debate. ee cummings you are not...

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 2:40 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey cpo...
how do you sleep at night man...
i know if i was certain i was going to go directly to hell...
sleep would be an issue for me...
but it doesn't seem to bother you at all...
does it...

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 2:41 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey gibbons...
you are a clown...
think bozo...
only dumber!!!

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 2:42 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie, besides rhyming "smile" with "smile" and "anything" with "anything" (this is the greatest rhyming achievement sine Styx rhymed "Roboto" with "Roboto" btw), you advocate violence against your fellow humans because they have a philosophical disagreement over how to handle and existing problem?

Instead of rational debate and reasoned arguments you recommend people attack those who dissent?

What on earth is wrong with you?

By cpo: 8/10/09 at 2:51 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie I am surprised you haven't been kicked off this blog, you fit the definition of a total idiot. Whatever side your on, your hurting it because of your stupidity.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 2:53 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey gibbons...
why do you poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns always fall back on the high and mighty routine???
hmmm???
oh by the way...
are you related to our poor poor terribly misguided republican loser clown governor???
hmmm???

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 2:58 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey cpo...
i can not believe you have not been kicked off...
you are a complete and total joke...
you take fear mongering to a new level my friend...
be careful my little poor poor terribly misguided rrepublican friend...
keep that up and you will wind up in a very very hot place...
hee hee hee...

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 3:35 p.m.; Suggest removal

birdie,

You don't even know what a bill is why am I wasting my keystrokes? You are such an obamacrat you wouldn't even care what's in the bill, you will go along with it like a sheeple instead of ever thinking to educate yourself.
The fact that you think cpo is republican just shows how incredibly stupid you are.

Doug, first of all you're not my dad.

edgewise, if you read the first 20 pages of the bill, you will see it with your own eyes.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 3:48 p.m.; Suggest removal

"you will see it with your own eyes."

You made the claim - the burden is on you to prove it.

You can't, because it's not there. Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich are just making stuff up again.

By edgewise: 8/10/09 at 4 p.m.; Suggest removal

"edgewise, if you read the first 20 pages of the bill, you will see it with your own eyes."

I've read the first 20 pages. There is no "death panel" that will euthanize an elderly person. It's just a bald faced lie.

But I already knew that because you wrote it was true. Since you know it is a fact, I dare you to prove it.

I'll bet $2000 right now that henderson is lying and can't prove his ridiculous claim.

By SgtRock: 8/10/09 at 4 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson, you hit on the nail.

The libs are running around with their heads cut off.

They are leaderless because Obama is not leading them.

Some are harping about single payer when Obama says that he is not pushing for single payer.

Some are harping about universal coverage when Obama says that he is not pushing for universal coverage.

Some are harping about a total non-profit system when Obama says he is not pushing for a non-profit system.

The Democrats which does not need one single Republican to pass a bill out of the House can't even pass a bill out of the House. They struggled just to get a bill out a Democratically control House committee.

They can't even get on the same book much less than the same page.

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 4:05 p.m.; Suggest removal

Doug, Obama's health care committee (or death panel) is in the bill, I know it's within the first 50 pages.

First you want me to pay for your medical bills, now you want me to read for you too? For someone with so much at stake, I would think you of all people would have actually started reading the bill by now.

You, Doug are a typical lazy democrat looking for someone else to do for you. You should be reading this bill instead of crying about "poor me".

I was speaking to edgewise about private insurance availability, which if you read the first 20 pages of the bill you will see that if you lose your insurance or want to switch companies, you may not. Whatever insurance you have once this bill goes live, you are stuck with it. No insurance company can take your money after that and privately insure you without going through the "exchange", your current provider may not even make changes to your policy or coverage as of 1 day before this thing is active! That's not in their talking points, is it?

Everyone that is not reading this bill has no business even talking about it.

Educate yourselves!

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 4:09 p.m.; Suggest removal

Obama's committee of course is not called a death panel in the bill. They are the ones that decide the viability of procedures, what becomes standard, and who gets what course of action.

NOT YOU AND YOUR DOCTOR!

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 4:24 p.m.; Suggest removal

Birdie,

1) Why do you say I'm a Republican when I already told you that I've never joined a party? Not one single party.

2) Why do you advocate violence against people who disagree with you?

3) Is Bob Dylan your most favorite lyricist?

By cpo: 8/10/09 at 4:25 p.m.; Suggest removal

henderson
You are stupid, and I am sure some stupid people believe your crap. The only time you and your doctor decide anything, is when your paying cash, like me because I cant get insurance. The insurance company decides if you get the procedure.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 4:27 p.m.; Suggest removal

We should have a pure pay cash system with insurance for rare and unlikely incidents"ie health savings accounts...that is the ONLY way we will control health care costs without rationing care or engaging in price and wage controls.

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 4:31 p.m.

Comment removed by staff.

By edgewise: 8/10/09 at 4:31 p.m.; Suggest removal

henderson, you can't even get your own BS lies right. First it's in the first 20 pages, now in the first 50 pages.

You make an assertion and can't back it up. Typical Republican!

You have no proof, only lies.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 4:38 p.m.; Suggest removal

Edge watch the fallacious comments or I will point my finger at Democrat Dick Durbin and make you eat your words.

By cpo: 8/10/09 at 4:40 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson, what insurance company or hospital do you work for ?? And by the way for the record, I am a registered Republican, I am just not a partisan butt sniffer like you. I am interested in what is right for the country.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/10/09 at 4:44 p.m.; Suggest removal

CPO,

SO what is right for the country? A public "option" and mandates that you must buy insurance or pay a fine? What about the alternatives like eliminating taxes on personal health insurance purchases or increasing insurance competition by removing state based restrictions? Or eliminating or reducing mandates on coverages?

By edgewise: 8/10/09 at 4:45 p.m.; Suggest removal

Patrick please point out the provision in ANY CURRENT LEGISLATION, enacted into law or currently being considered, that states elderly people or children with disabilities will be called before death panels and judged worthy of living.

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 4:54 p.m.; Suggest removal

edgewise, follow the convo....

I was referencing the first 20 pages for you so you can see how any private insurance that is not granfathered in is not possible after the bill goes live.

For lefty (pay my bills, read the bill for me) Doug, I was referencing the portion of the bill that speaks of the committee that decides the viability of procedures, what becomes standard, and who gets what course of action. That information is somewhere between pages 20-50. I don't exactly recall.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/10/09 at 5:16 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson:

One more time, because obviously you are not getting it.

YOU made the assertion that "death panels" exist. It is YOUR burden to prove that it does, in fact, exist. It is NOT my burden to find whatever particular quote you are taking completely out-of-context to make your claim.

But you're telling me that Republican Congressman Jack Kingston of Georgia doesn't know what he's talking about?

"It's a scare tactic, no question about it," said Kingston, who added that there are no death panels [on Friday's episode of "Real Time with Bill Maher"].

Sarah Palin is LYING. Newt Gingrich is LYING.

YOU ARE LYING.

Do I need to make it ANY clearer, or should I hire a skywriter?

By cpo: 8/10/09 at 5:26 p.m.; Suggest removal

Patrick
My main goal is to get insurance where anyone can purchase it regardless of pre existing conditions, or without the fear of being denied. I want the existing public options expanded so people on the low end of the economic spectrum will not clog up our emergency services, and never pay, or wind up sticking the Taxpayers with bills exceeding 1000 dollars where a simple 40 office visit would fix.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 5:55 p.m.

Comment removed by staff.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 6:09 p.m.; Suggest removal

oh henderson henderson henderson...
my little poor poor terribly misguided republican friend...
before you put your head on the pillow tonight...
give yourself a good pat on the back...
you did an excellent job of fear mongering today...
atta boy...
planted some scare tactics...
spread some intentional misinformation...
truth be damned...
good job...
sleep well my friend...
you will burn in hell to be sure...
but make sure you get a good night's rest...
more dirty deeds to do tomorrow!!!

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 6:15 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey douglas...
you are making the same mistake obama made...
you are trying to reason with our poor poor terribly misguided republican friends...
but they are not negotiating in good faith...
they are the party of no...
they just want to defeat anything you put forward...
so...
like i said before...
you can not talk to them...
you must just punch them in the mouth...
the democrats in congress must just punch the poor poor terribly misguided republicans in congress in the mouth...
shove it down their throats...
do the right thing...
and watch them cry like little girls...
hee hee hee!!!

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 7:33 p.m.; Suggest removal

Of course it is not a death panel. It is called a health committee. This health committee alone will decide exactly what treatment is taken for what conditions, who gets it, and what is covered for all Americans. It is a dangerous day when we put our health care in the hands of Obama's panel. I say death panel facetiously, but make no mistake, our health will be in the hands of a small group of people appointed by the president. If that does not send a shiver up your spine it should, your life and health are in their hands.

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 7:37 p.m.; Suggest removal

doug,

Like I said, for someone that hasn't even attempted to crack the bill open and see what's in it you have an aweful lot to say. For someone that expects working America to subsidize your medical expenses you could at least do the bare minimum to find out what's in the bill.

The only reason your lazy ass doesn't look at the bill is because you don't care what it says, as long as you get your government subsidy.

By just_an_average_joe: 8/10/09 at 7:43 p.m.; Suggest removal

birdshi*-dreamin'

I just read this entire thread and you have definitely earned the title of most moronic, least intelligent, most juvenile poster.

Do you think by adding some more spaces and childish exclamations to your posts that they somehow look like intelligent prose of some sort?

quit wasting all of our time, sweet-pea. the grown-ups are trying to have an adult discussion. go have some more kool-aid and tune into the cartoon network.

By just_an_average_joe: 8/10/09 at 7:47 p.m.; Suggest removal

and Doug,

again, sorry for your situation. but you sure do seem to spend an awful lot of time crying on this forum. as in FULL TIME. as in someone who doesn't appear to work. at least not many hours.

you've proclaimed that you have an advanced education. what type of education? what type of job did u prepare yourself to hold?

if you were half as smart as you profess to be, and spent as many years in formal education as you claim, you could have easily become a doctor yourself, and then, if you were willing to work for it, be able to afford your own health care even without insurance.

but that's not the case is it?

instead you spend full time crying how the rest of us "owe" you a living - figuratively and literally.

your arguments have grown old.

By skerlahdee: 8/10/09 at 8:29 p.m.; Suggest removal

open wide, teabaggers

health care reform coming

whether you like it or not

republican revolution?

over. period.

end of story

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 8:38 p.m.; Suggest removal

skerlahdee is birdiedreamin

By cpo: 8/10/09 at 8:45 p.m.; Suggest removal

Clearly Birdie is mentally unstable. This person is only been posting for 3 weeks. I would suggest everyone not respond to his or hers post. It also wouldn't hurt to report some of the posts especially the ones inciting violence. Even though birdies a lib, I can't believe if enough people complain that the Sun would let birdie post here

By THE_LIGHT: 8/10/09 at 9:10 p.m.; Suggest removal

Thank you Doug and Edge for being the voices of reason to counter these demagouges.

By gmag39: 8/10/09 at 9:25 p.m.; Suggest removal

Oh, come on. y'all afraid of a little birdie?
Please.

By henderson: 8/10/09 at 9:27 p.m.; Suggest removal

How can anyone be a voice of reason on this subject when they won't read the bill?

By Birdiedreamin: 8/10/09 at 9:32 p.m.; Suggest removal

hey cpo...
what a pathetic little poor poor terribly misguided republican clown you are...
and a girly man to boot...
ain't no one threatening violence...
it's a metaphor...
got that skippy...
just goes to show you folks...
our poor poor terribly misguided republican clowns will do and say anything to get their way...
absolutely anything...
like children...
like little girly cry babies...
hee hee hee...
they will run to their cult radio programs...
they will run to the sun police...
and in the case of johnnie boy ensign...
they will run to mommy and daddy...
hee hee hee...
the only one who should get kicked off the board is you...
for being a wimp...
for realizing that i will woop all of your butts in a debate...
so rather than stand up and fight...
you want to go running to the sun police...
cry you little girly man cry...
boo hoo hoo...
wah wah wah...
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...

By just_an_average_joe: 8/10/09 at 9:34 p.m.; Suggest removal

annoyed. not afraid.

like a mosquito in your room when u are trying to sleep. a small, insignificant insect with no thought processes. a small, insignificant insect whose sole purpose is to suck the blood from others.

a fitting description of birdboy. another lazy liberal looking for his ride on the gravy train.

By El_Lobo: 8/10/09 at 9:38 p.m.; Suggest removal

cpo.....Hmmmmmm....Allow me to get this straight.

You apparently can't handle the debate/argument started by Birdie and as a result of not being able to deal with his posts, you think the Sun should cut off Birdie from posting on this board...Is that about it?

I see you have decided that "freedom of speech" & "freedom of expression" is a one-way street.

You have also decided that Birdie is mentally unstable......Wow! I didn't realize that you had a medical degree and can make the right decision concerning the mental make-up of a person by simply reading their posts......

Should I, from this point on, refer to you as Dr. cpo?

By odeman: 8/10/09 at 11:27 p.m.; Suggest removal

Recently it was documented that a woman who had expensive cancer treatments had her coverage cancelled and payment denied because she visited a dermatologist once in the past and forgot to put it down on her insurance application. The visit had nothing to do with her cancer but gave the insurance company an excuse to not pay. Closer to home, my grandson of less than a year needed several expert treatments for a debilitating skin condition. After each treatment the bills were submitted and the insurance company said nothing. After the treatments were over, the insurance company found a loophole to deny paying the $8000. When talking to his co-workers about this he found stiffing patients was a common practice of this insurance company. As Douglas pointed out and has been documented, insurance companies reward employees for denying claims. So Patrick get off your high horse about how ethical insurance companies are and all insured are liars and cheats.

There is a clause in my insurance that says if I go into the hospital I have to call my insurance company within a 2 days or they can cancel payment. What if I'm unable to call? What if I hadn't read the fine print? This clause was in there for one reason only. A loophole to deny payment. I had to be admitted to the hospital awhile back and they called the insurance company instead of me. Seems they did it as routine as they had been stiffed in the past by the insurance company when the patient himself did not call.

Another son had knee surgery. A few weeks after the surgery he went to work elsewhere. The insurance company denied the claim saying he had quit his employer before the surgery, which was untrue. They twisted the facts to avoid paying.

What has happened in health care has happened to the whole country. Greed. I don't care if it's Wall Street, insurance companies, doctors, lawyers, or whatever, our culture of getting as much as we can with as little effort as we can is killing us. In every instance when we try to do something, the big money boys pull out the wallet to keep the status quo and any type of reform dies an ugly death. The battle over health care is just another chapter of the rich and those wanting to be rich screwing their fellow man to achieve that goal.

By odeman: 8/11/09 at 1:51 a.m.; Suggest removal

When my son had his knee surgery, it was a scope job in the doctors office. The doctor told him he was not leaving the office until he purchased a set of crutches for $400. The doctor also told him that once he was out the front door of the clinic he, the doctor, said he couldn't care less if my son used the crutches or not. So my son used the crutches to walk the 50 feet to the waiting wheel chair. The nurse wheeled him to my car and the crutches weren't used again. This doctor was one of the foremost knee doctors in the country and was on call for some major sports teams. This guy should have been swimming in dough yet he gouged the insurance companies by forcing his patients to buy a cheap pair of crutches for $400.

By rayy: 8/11/09 at 5:40 a.m.; Suggest removal

I'm all for activism, but only when it is informed. Instead of reading up on Congress' plans for health care, these people are blindly & stupidly believing what is fed them. If you can't do the homework, then just stay home! In the end, if these loud few get their way, we will have the continuation of the second-class system we have now with ever-rising costs and unaffordibility, with job-lock.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 6:55 a.m.; Suggest removal

Read up or shut up people.

Learn what's in the bill before you try telling us how great it is.

The obamacrats are lying about it, reading it is the only way you will know what's in it.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/11/09 at 7:33 a.m.; Suggest removal

"Learn what's in the bill before you try telling us how great it is."

I didn't say it was great. I said it sucks a whole lot less than the status quo (which, absent an alternative plan, is what the official GOP line is - everything is fine, don't worry about it).

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 7:46 a.m.; Suggest removal

doug,

You don't care how much our taxes are going up because of this bill. You don't care how much wasteful spending is in the bill, you don't care how this health committee is selected, you don't care that the health of this entire nation is put in the care of just a handful of people selected by the president that will not only determine what is good for the people on the public option, but also create regulations for private/employer insurance industry.

It is not going to be a system where if you don't like the public option you can go completely private. You can't, unless you are "grandfathered" in with coverage once the bill is active and never have more children or make changes to your current policy. Once this bill goes live you can't just go purchase private insurance. You have to be part of the "Exchange".

This is not something I learned from Hannity or Limbaugh, I learned this from actually reading the bill. Something everyone should do.

But you don't care as long as you get your government subsidy.

You simply do not care.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/11/09 at 8 a.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson,

At this point I really don't give a flying fig what you think of me.

Show me the GOP alternative. Not yours, or any of the other yammering twits on this board. The offical, opposition party's alternative to this bill.

Saying "NO!" is not an alternative plan. And the status quo is not acceptable.

So what does the GOP intend to do? if you can't answer that question, then YOU sit down and shut up.

By Birdiedreamin: 8/11/09 at 8:52 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey doug...
not for nothing buddy...
but at what point are you going to realize that you are just banging your head against the wall???

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/11/09 at 9:19 a.m.; Suggest removal

El Lobo,

Birdie doesn't actually make any points.

By NLV-Indep13: 8/11/09 at 10:05 a.m.; Suggest removal

"The problem with the latest brand of conservatives who practice confrontation over civil discourse is that they have no new ideas on health care, the environment, the economy and other pressing issues. All they have is intellectually empty intimidation."

It's the same thing the Left has done and continues to do -- they're just upset that, at least on this issue, they've been outdone. Not that I support it, it just seems appropriate that was good for the goose is also good for the gander!

And a bad bill could very easily be worse than the status quo -- change isn't always for the better.

Personally, I'd like to see some political courage demonstrated and a clear choice for the public to debate:
1) REFORM. Reform the current system as some GOP'ers suggest, acknowledging that millions will not be covered (but that millions more would be than are currently covered).
2) SINGLE PAYER. Go with a single payer system as some Dem's suggest, acknowledging the cost (but that it would be universal).
3) HYBRID. Some will certainly suggest a hybrid -- with a public option or coop -- but that's probably just a dodge to protect their own or their friends interests while placating one side or the other. Eventually, a choice will have to be made.

Is that really so hard?

And we need some real number cruching & analysis -- not the anecdotal stories and sound bite solutions being put out at townhalls. Clear choices backed up by data would go a long ways towards moving the discussion forward.

By Patrick_R_Gibbons: 8/11/09 at 10:25 a.m.; Suggest removal

Douglas, this is not reform vs. the status quo

WJS from March of 09 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12427755...

This isn't even the best reform idea in my opinion but the GOP is and has been proposing alternatives. The left has TOTALLY ignored them to keep up the mindless rhetorical chants.

Will you stop the demagoguery now?

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/11/09 at 11:03 a.m.; Suggest removal

"This isn't even the best reform idea in my opinion but the GOP is and has been proposing alternatives."

Really?

Where are they? Why isn't House Minority Leader John Boehner or Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell talking about them?

The House Minority said they would have an alterative plan to present three weeks ago. It never showed up.

If they have a grand and glorious "alternative" to the current Democratic plans, why not bring it to the congressional committees and debate it? When the Democratic Party was in the minority, they still introduced bills just for the sake of having something to run on in the next election.

All I hear from the ELECTED leadership of the Republican Party is how Obama's plan is bad. I DON'T hear them offering anything instead. And I HAVE been paying attention.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 11:19 a.m.; Suggest removal

If you're so attentive why haven't you read the bill that you think will save your life.

If I thought something was necessary to save my life, I'd be reading it for sure!

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/11/09 at 11:29 a.m.; Suggest removal

"If you're so attentive why haven't you read the bill that you think will save your life."

Stop misrepresenting my position.

I have read the bill, but I am NOT doing your work for you.

YOU made the assertion. It is YOUR responsibility is to prove it. It is NOT my responsibility to prove YOUR argument for you and then refute it.

If you won't follow this basic guideline for debate, then there is no point in further discussion with you.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 12:03 p.m.

Comment removed by staff.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/11/09 at 12:38 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson:

The only LIAR I see is you. What you're talking about can be found not in the first 20 pages, or the first 50 pages, or even the first 400 pages.

Look on pages 425-426.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 1:15 p.m.; Suggest removal

Doug,

We are talking about 3 different things.

I am talking about the end of private insurance through attrition, which is any insurance that is not grandfathered in once this bill goes active.

I am also speaking about the health committee, which is the handful of Obama's appointed people that will determine what course of action is to be taken for what circumstances (rather than you and your doctor),

And you are talking about the end of life counseling.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 1:47 p.m.; Suggest removal

Good on you though for finally cracking that bill open and learning about your new government subsidy.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/11/09 at 2:05 p.m.; Suggest removal

"I am talking about the end of private insurance through attrition, which is any insurance that is not grandfathered in once this bill goes active."

Funny, because the way I read that provision does not refer to amendments to existing policies.

If you have a policy now, you can amend it to include dependents or to change coverage schemes.

"I am also speaking about the health committee, which is the handful of Obama's appointed people that will determine what course of action is to be taken for what circumstances (rather than you and your doctor)"

As opposed to now, where your doctor's wishes can be vetoed by some bean-counter who thinks he knows better than your doctor?

If you want a "death panel", look no further than the private insurance company you seem to love.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 2:28 p.m.; Suggest removal

Doug,

Even if you were right, it would still lead to the end of private insurance through attrition as people would change jobs, lose their coverage for any reason, or if companies should decide to change plans. They would no longer be able to go out and purchase private insurance without being a part of the "Exchange."

Here is the verbiage:

Subject to paragraph 3 and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

By sheckyvegas: 8/11/09 at 2:41 p.m.; Suggest removal

UH OH! HERE COME THEM IRRADIATED TERMATERS!!! YIKES!

By edgewise: 8/11/09 at 3:23 p.m.; Suggest removal

"They would no longer be able to go out and purchase private insurance without being a part of the "Exchange."

....................................

............the exchange IS private insurance.

So a public options will lead to the "end of private insurance" because people will only be able to buy insurance from the exchange... which is inclusive of private insurance.

So people leaving private insurance to purchase private insurance is the "end of private insurance?"

I guess reading legislation doesn't actually mean UNDERSTANDING that legislation, as Henderson has demonstrated.

By edgewise: 8/11/09 at 3:26 p.m.; Suggest removal

Don't forget, the CBO debunked henderson's "private insurance will DIE!!!!" two weeks ago: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/arti...

By mikegino: 8/11/09 at 3:35 p.m.; Suggest removal

Just say no to Socialism.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 3:55 p.m.; Suggest removal

edgewise,

It is not private insurance if you have to go through government to get it!

It's not private insurance if the insurance company is forbidden from changing your policy or adding new enrollments without going through Obama.

It's not private if the purpose for forcing you into his exchange is to facilitate enrollment and the delivery of subsidies, while also playing roles in spreading risk (i.e., ensuring that the costs associated with those with high medical need are shared broadly).

We should have a right to purchase private insurance without Obama being involved or becoming part of his plan for socialized medicine.

And yes, once every American becomes part of the exchange, there is no longer such a thing as private insurance without government involvement. Because you are now part of a huge government exchange.

It is socialized and subsidized.

Is that slow enough for you to understand or do you need a flow chart?

By AngryReader: 8/11/09 at 4 p.m.; Suggest removal

Mikegino,

I bet you can't even define socialism.

Birdie.... you and those gdam ellipses!!!!!

By mikegino: 8/11/09 at 4:07 p.m.; Suggest removal

Angry: Maybe not, but I know a dead socialist when I see one. Semper Fi.

By edgewise: 8/11/09 at 4:10 p.m.; Suggest removal

"And yes, once every American becomes part of the exchange, there is no longer such a thing as private insurance without government involvement. Because you are now part of a huge government exchange."

Well riddle me this... henderson keeps changing his argument. "Refining" it, right?

Henderson, those are known as "regulations." That's a good word, look it up.

ALL private enterprise is subject to regulation, that's why we have that thing called "government." You may want to look that word up, too.

When the "government" PROVIDES the service, then it is a public good. If you purchase a policy through Aetna, it is NOT a public good.

When the government OWNS ALL insurance, then it is a public good.

The problem with your argument is that it's already been debunked by the CBO. You were wrong before you even wrote your comment.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 4:50 p.m.; Suggest removal

Let me go slower,

We have regulations now. That doesn't mean the government has to be involved in the health care that I purchase or that the insurance companies I use need to report to the government what coverage I have or what my health bills are.

It is not private insurance if it puts you in an exchange of socialized/subsidized health care program run by the government.

You will not be able to walk into an insurance company, pick out a plan, pay for your premiums, and insure yourself and your family without the government forcing you into the exchange of socialized/subsidized health care.

There is no article that debunks that, it is in the bill. Read it.

By just_an_average_joe: 8/11/09 at 5:07 p.m.; Suggest removal

edgewise,

you can try to spin it any way you want, but Henderson is absolutely right.

she gets it. I get it. and many millions of Americans are starting to get it.

that is why Obama's popularity, and support for his socialized medicine agenda, are taking such a nosedive.

By cpo: 8/11/09 at 6:23 p.m.; Suggest removal

Don't count Obama out my Republicans friends. I am afraid some of my fellow supporters of health care reform are a little well, let me just say it just proves there are nut jobs on both sides the fence, But your not going to win this. Health care reform is coming, and after hearing Obama today, the public option is till on the table. To many smart people in Washington and the right wing simply does not have any facts or solutions.

By Krases: 8/11/09 at 6:24 p.m.; Suggest removal

Its amazing how passionate conservatives get about blocking any sort of improvement to the healthcare system. There are so many systems that are vastly superior to the American system of healthcare around the world, and yet these shouters and screamers in town halls sit in there little bubbles and ignore reality.

Were not talking about taking away there guns, outlawing churches or burning the constitution. Were talking about making sick people better in the most effective way possible. Sit down in your seats, wait for your turn at the microphone and use your inside voice. Impersonating a chimpanzee on crack will only serve to both distract from the real debate at hand and will make your side look more and more extremist.

We need healthcare reform and the new system that comes out of it should be designed to benefit the patient, not the wealthy CEO's of insurance companies whom conservatives seem desperate to defend with there very lives (literally in some incredibly ironic cases of conservatives being denied coverage by there insurers).

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 6:33 p.m.; Suggest removal

Krases,

The problem with the public option is that it disenfranchises those of us that don't want government involved in our healthcare.

It is also extremely offensive that our taxes will be raised to pay for socialized medicine.

Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves right now.

By cpo: 8/11/09 at 6:47 p.m.; Suggest removal

Boy I have to comment on that, rolling in their graves. One of the predictions of the signers of the Declaration of Independence was that when the day came where every American could not get equal Medical care, we would be heading to a Dictatorship. Quite ironic those who wrap themselves in the flag and wave around the constitution and such, don't even know what they believe in !

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/11/09 at 7:23 p.m.; Suggest removal

"It is also extremely offensive that our taxes will be raised to pay for socialized medicine."

I'm sure Quakers and pacifists find it extremely offensive that their taxes help pay for the bullets and bombs that kill people. But they pay them.

I'm sure atheists find it extremely offensive that their taxes pay for "faith-based initiatives". But they pay them.

We all pay taxes for things that we find personally offensive.

But by all means, have the courage of your convictions. And tell the IRS I said "hi".

By mikegino: 8/11/09 at 7:27 p.m.; Suggest removal

Why did Obama say that AARP had endorsed his so-called reforms? Was he simply lying or is he so arrogant that he doesn't consider the facts to be worthwhile?

By cpo: 8/11/09 at 8:17 p.m.; Suggest removal

AARP, is in support of overhauling the health care system. That is the real facts. Of course they haven't endorsed a specific plan, because there isn't one yet

By mikegino: 8/11/09 at 8:30 p.m.; Suggest removal

So "That is the real facts?" Weak, very weak.

By qwill: 8/11/09 at 8:51 p.m.; Suggest removal

Hmm! A $37,000 hospital bill: you pay 675.00 and the insurance pays 8.000 and then the for-profit hospital writes off the rest. The hospital remains open and the nurses/staff get paid. The insurance? Medicare. Sounds like good health insurance to me. I wonder how real that 37,000 bill was to begin with. What we're missing is a reality check on inflated charges. I hope the Obama administration is looking at this but I doubt if congress is.

By Krases: 8/11/09 at 9:07 p.m.; Suggest removal

It is true that the AARP didn't endorse Obama's plan because of fear that medicare would be cut. mikgino is correct on that one.

@Henderson: It feel very disenfranchised with people who are so self centered that they are willing to let people die in droves because they want to save a few dollars on there taxes. Right now there are tens of millions of people who can't afford insurance, especially under these economic conditions and they cannot afford the treatment that would save there lives. Often the only treatment they receive is the emergency room in which case the patient must be treated, often for tens of thousands of dollars that the patient will go into bankruptcy trying to pay, or will just die due to inadequate after care.

Think about it like this. You have to pay a small amount every month in extra taxes. That money will go towards providing insurance to millions of lower class fellow Americans. This means that a man with heart disease will be given 200$ worth the medication for his heart instead of 40,000$ in surgery after a heart attack. More lives are saved, a giant weight is taken off the economy and America can claim that it has a world class health care system again.

Now Henderson, let me ask you a question. What is America? America is its people. If you do not respect your fellow American people, then you do not respect America and should probably not put words in the mouths of men who died centuries ago to further your own political ideology.

By SgtRock: 8/11/09 at 9:09 p.m.; Suggest removal

"Of course they haven't endorsed a specific plan, because there isn't one yet"

With statements like that from libs, it just shows that they are currently leaderless.

Obama is letting you guys down bigtime.

By Krases: 8/11/09 at 9:16 p.m.; Suggest removal

SgtRock:
Isn't there a 1000 page healthcare bill sitting in the senate right now? If there is no specific plan, then what are people going to these town hall meetings and yelling about?

By mikegino: 8/11/09 at 9:35 p.m.; Suggest removal

krases: mikegino fought and bled in SE Asia and Central America in wars long since past. Why hasn't anyone read the darn thing? Don't we owe a degree of diligence to the folks who pay taxes and keep this ship of state afloat? The United States of America is still the Beacon of Hope for the rest of the world.

By henderson: 8/11/09 at 10:02 p.m.; Suggest removal

Krases,

I have been through this conversation too many times with DD and I have no interest in rehashing it with you right now.

It is a fallacy that you will still be free to purchase private insurance. Once this bill goes live you are either stuck with whatever plan you are "grandfathered" in with, or you are forced to become part of the Exchange. Again, if the government is involved in my health care or my insurance, it is not private.

And in short answer to your question I have no interest in subsidizing the medical bills of every smoker, drinker, stoner, junkie and fatass in the nation. That's in short, but there are other issues that I'm too tired to delve into at this moment.

By Krases: 8/11/09 at 10:47 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson,

No it is not a fallacy. In Great Britain, one of many countries with a public healthcare system, there is the option of getting the public option and there is the option of paying out of pocket for a insurance package provided by a private company which provides many additional coverages for a price.

I can understand that those are legitimate concerns. You don't want to pay for the vast majority of Americans who have either tried drugs, smoked at one point, drink alcohol or are overweight. Even though they probably already raise your insurance premiums...but what about the homeless teen who can't afford any sort of health coverage or the perfectly legitimate patient who forgot to check one box on a piece of paper and will now be dropped from coverage by insurance company death panels. For every case of someone who (already) abuses the system, I could toss an example of someone who was a great citizen but was ruined by the broken system.

The key is to have polite and thoughtful discussion about the topic. Obama has had the opportunity to use reconciliation (a tactic used by conservatives for most of the previous 8 years) many times when it came to legislation, but he instead chose to reach compromise on many issues. I think the current tactic of screaming at lawmakers, literally picking fights in public forums and generally being anti-democracy is both foolish and useless.

mikegino,

I would like to read it myself...albiet maybe the sparknotes version. Tell me, do you receive your health care from a veterans hospital?

By LarryVegas: 8/11/09 at 10:55 p.m.; Suggest removal

I would raise my hand and ask Birdie, but I am afraid that he would "foul" my hand. So would one of you brilliant commentators enlighten me as to the meaning/purpose of 102(a)(1)(A)?

----------------------------------------------

SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.
(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT-
(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.

By Highstreet: 8/11/09 at 11:31 p.m.; Suggest removal

Three reasons I support the President's health care proposal:

1. There is no country on earth that wants our system of health care, for obvious reasons.

2. I have had experience with two forms of government health care, Medicare and the VA, and they were both excellent.

3. It's a better country when the people in it are healthy.

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/12/09 at 6:08 a.m.; Suggest removal

"Isn't there a 1000 page healthcare bill sitting in the senate right now?"

There is. There also another one in the Senate, and 3 others in the House. None of them are final, and odds are pretty good that whatever makes it to the President's desk will not look like any of the ones that are currently floating around.

In other words, we're having a debate about proposals that could change three or four times before they're even voted on by the entire Congress.

Which is, you know, how the legislative process works.

By henderson: 8/12/09 at 7:01 a.m.; Suggest removal

doug,

please name the other bills besides hr3200 that are currently pending.

I have asked the same of edgewise who thinks she's so smart, but also can't name the other bills.

By LarryVegas: 8/12/09 at 7:05 a.m.; Suggest removal

But there is a 1000 page health care bill proposal that has cleared committee in the House and has moved to the full House for consideration. This bill could be voted on at any time by the Speaker of the House. She has even stated that she will get it passed. So, no wonder so many are concerned. I would like to see health care reform which should/must include tort reform.

By SgtRock: 8/12/09 at 7:14 a.m.; Suggest removal

Krases: "Isn't there a 1000 page healthcare bill sitting in the senate right now?"

I did not make the remark about there is not a specific plan.

It was one of your koolaid lib friends that did.

I was just pointing out that the lack of leadership by Obama is making you guys look like idiots.

You are all running around saying stuff like single payer, universal healthcare, this and that but Obama is not pushing any of that.

Congress is split about 1,000 ways on the subject.

The angry crowds are reacting to the bits and pieces that come from Obama and Pelosi's plan and the various Senate plans.

You guys are running around with your heads cut off and it is all Obama's fault.

He is your leader and he is not leading.

By cpo: 8/12/09 at 7:37 a.m.; Suggest removal

Leaderless; The country is passing you by. I have never seen a more dynamic leader then we have now. he is tackling real problems with real solution's. This is not Romania Sgt where we live in the past and don't progress. Wake up and enjoy the ride, its not your fathers Government anymore.

By henderson: 8/12/09 at 8:04 a.m.; Suggest removal

krases,

You have a right to say what you want, but if you haven't read the bill you are inneffective.

The bill tells us that you must be "grandfathered" in to your policy. Any changes you make, whether it's a change in your coverage, change of jobs, change of insurance company, you will be forced to be a part of the massive exchange of government ran socialized/subsidized health care program.

Please don't tell me that is a fallacy, it is in the bill. No disrespect intended towards you but you are speaking about something you are not informed about, so I refuse to engage with you on this topic when you are not even making the effort to understand what's in this bill.

By just_an_average_joe: 8/12/09 at 9:09 a.m.; Suggest removal

cpo,

u have never seen a more dynamic leader than we have now??

I guess you must be 12 years old, or have never served in the military or worked for a successful business.

dynamic leadership, indeed.

the only thing obama is doing is spending, spending, and more spending.

spending money we as a country DO NOT HAVE.

it's all driven by his desire to redistribute as much private wealth, to help the "downtrodden masses", as he can.

the so-called "stimulus" has raised our deficit to unheard of historic levels.
And it IS NOT WORKING.

and he still thinks it is imperative to spend additional trillions of dollars IMMEDIATELY for his socialized medicine agenda, saying it needs to be done to "save the country money and cut our deficit".

what?????

when has the government EVER run ANYTHING more efficiently and at greater savings than the private sector???

the US post office LOST 6 billion each of the last 2 years, while UPS and FEDEX made hundreds of millions. the VA medical system is the shame of our health care system. the social security system is facing sure collapse. and to top it all off, we now "own" 60% of General Motors. any guesses as to how profitable GM will be in the coming years?

By DouglasDemocrat: 8/12/09 at 9:58 a.m.; Suggest removal

Okay, there's HR 3200 - which is now before the full House.

Then there's the bill from the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee (HELP). This bill, also known as the Kennedy Bill, is substantially different than HR 3200.

http://help.senate.gov/Maj_press/2009_07...

Then there's the bill being drafted by Senators Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley in the Senate Finance Committee. No final draft of it is yet available, but it differs primarily in that it does not include the public option and has lowered the ceilings on subsidies for low-income families (130% of the current Medicaid line).

Then there's HR 676, which is the "single payer" bill. It looks like a dead letter now, but elements of it may be incorporated into the final bill in order to keep the progressive Dems on board.

And there is one more House bill floating around - I think it's in the HELP committee, but I'm not entirely sure.

By henderson: 8/12/09 at 11:29 a.m.; Suggest removal

Listen,

1) They put one little sentence in a 1018 page bill saying "no affordability credits for undocumented aliens"
2) Then they eliminate all barriers that would prevent illegals from applying for assistance
3) They resoundly defeat an amendment that would require all applicants for services be screened to weed out illegals
3) Then they give the states grants to provide services and programs that would largely benefit the illegal population.

There is your government~ sneaky, lying Obamacacrats!

For the longer version, keep reading for a breakdown.

In a 1018 page bill, this is supposed to be the sentence that denies illegals coverage:

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments for affordability credits (that means premiums) on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

That all I can find. So no federal payments for premiums will go to illegals. check.

Then the Obamacrats resoundingly defeated Heller's amendment that would have required all applicants for services to be screened through the same eligibility verification system being used for Medicare and Welfare. They said no way.

Then they put this in the bill:
Section 1203: Eliminating Barriers to Enrollment
I) An individual shall be able to apply on the basis of self-certification of income and resources and
II) matters attested to in the application shall be subject to the appropriate methods of verification without the need of the individual to provide additional documentation.

We already know that no federal money can go towards affordability credits to the illegal population. Yet they have earmarked tons of grant money in this bill that is designed to go to states. These grants are for programs and services that are designed to benefit the illegal community.

Notice it does not say anything about the states using their grant money for programs benefitting illegals?

*Grants to states for quality home visitation programs for young families or expectant parents (with 5% of grants going towards training and technical assistance to serve ow income, high minority areas, blah blah blah)

*Grants to states that offer and provide language services at no additional cost to each patient with limited English proficiency at all points of contact, in a timely manner, during all hours of operation.

There are all of these grants to states, with absolutely no verbiage preventing these grant monies from going towards the illegal population~

Does anyone think this is a coincidence? In 1018 pages, could this be a deliberate loophole to get illegals on the dole?

You think?

By mikegino: 8/12/09 at 11:56 a.m.; Suggest removal

Krases: Since you asked, I sought VA care several years ago almost a week after severely dislocating my shoulder in a boating accident on Lake Mead. The contract physicians at Nellis did a great job in putting my arm back into the socket. I declined the government proffered physical therapy and rehabilitated the shoulder and arm through my own efforts. If and when I believe I need medical attention, I visit a nurse practitioner at my own expense. I earned my right to a limited emergency room visit funded by the taxpayers. I object to paying for health care services for the indolent, obese and self-destructive miscreats in our midst?

By SgtRock: 8/12/09 at 7:02 p.m.; Suggest removal

"he is tackling real problems with real solution's"

What real solutions?

Can you name one?

By Krases: 8/12/09 at 11:52 p.m.; Suggest removal

God that thing is long. Ive been reading through it and though I can't claim that I have read the whole thing, I am a good ways in.

Henderson,

Page 19

1 (1) IN GENERAL.--Individual health insurance
2 coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance
3 coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered
4 on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-par5
ticipating health benefits plan.
6 (2) SEPARATE, EXCEPTED COVERAGE PERMITTED.--Excepted benefits (as defined in section
8 2791(c) of the Public Health Service Act) are not
9 included within the definition of health insurance
10 coverage. Nothing in paragraph (1) shall prevent the
11 offering, other than through the Health Insurance
12 Exchange, of excepted benefits so long as it is offered and priced separately from health insurance
14 coverage.

Basically the plan doesn't require you to be enrolled into the government run program, but does however require that you get some sort of health insurance much like one is required to get auto insurance to drive a car. Nowhere does it say that all other forms of healthcare insurance will be banned and only the public option will be available. The grandfathering is for people who either lose there previous coverage or for private companies that choose to join the public system.

mikegino,

So you would say that the VA healthcare system was good? Assuming that not all of the 40+ million fellow Americans who would benefit from the public system are NOT obese, indolent or self desctructive, would you say that a system similar to the VA would be cheaper for those 40+ million people?

By henderson: 8/13/09 at 6:37 a.m.; Suggest removal

krases,

I never said it was banned. What I said was that it is forbidden for any insurance company to take you without going through the enormous government exchange which is subsidized/socialized medicine.

By mikegino: 8/13/09 at 9:09 a.m.; Suggest removal

Krases: the doctors were excellent but that might have been luck of the draw. The support staff were disinterested and displayed a typical bureaucratic lack of caring. I waited four hours before being seen by anyone. The elderly woman next to me was vomiting blood that I helped clean up with my good arm. I am grateful that the doctors were able to treat my condition. I declined the prescribed physical therapy because of the suoervisors attitude.

To answer your question in typical lawyerly fashion, I don't know. Theoretically, a VA-type system might work adequately for the uninsured or underserved. However, given this population's susceptibilty to over-utilization and downright fraud (not necessarily attributable to their volition), I have serious doubts it would be the panacea that is being advocated. A more reasonable approach would be to clean up the endemic fraud, waste, and abuse in the current taxpayer-supported systems. Government is inherentky inefficient. I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps, which I deem one of the most cost-effective government programs. I also spent time in the U.S. Department of Injustice. My editorial bent should tell you how I feel about that organization.

By ionfield: 8/13/09 at 12:33 p.m.; Suggest removal

Senator Arlen Specter's town hall meeting in Lebanon, PA was met with 1,000 unruly, ignorant, hoodwinked, clueless, lemming Republicans who apparently do whatever the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly tell them to do. I was disgusted by what I saw, heard, and read in the news media.

Take for example little, white-haired, 73-year-old Nancy Gusti of Lebanon who was captured in a photo by Jessica Kourkounis for The New York Times
(http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/08...)
as she was berated and heckled by the God-fearing Republicans simply because she was holding a small, handmade sign expressing her love and support for Specter: "I love you ARLEN." I feel both sad for her and proud of her for standing her ground while being subjected to such hatred and cruel adversity. It breaks my heart to see the elderly treated this way by a-holes. This is happening all across the country.

What kind of people are today's Republicans? And I use the word people loosely; they more properly should be referred to as primitive, barbarian animals. Is this how Republicans think they can regain power in government? As far as I am concerned, the complete demise of the Republican Party cannot come soon enough.

Jesus must be very proud of what His followers do when they are not in church.

By henderson: 8/13/09 at 1:44 p.m.; Suggest removal

ionfield,

People don't take kindly to having their freedoms taken away.

Which is exactly what a government take over of health care and insurance is.

This administration needs to slow down and think carefully about what they are doing. I'm afraid at the rate they are going, we will see another civil war before this term is up.

By henderson: 8/13/09 at 1:56 p.m.; Suggest removal

I just thought of something really funny.... that wouldn't bode very well for you dems because guess who has all the firepower!

By just_an_average_joe: 8/13/09 at 2 p.m.; Suggest removal

and let us not forget that Specter's constituents have plenty to be unhappy about with this lifelong worm of a politician.

he ran as a Republican. he was elected as a Republican.

and only AFTER being elected, did he "switch" parties and declare himself a democrat.

no sir, Arlen Specter deserves everything that comes his way. the imperative is on HIM to explain his actions and views.

By crackedbeak: 8/13/09 at 2:39 p.m.; Suggest removal

"People don't take kindly to having their freedoms taken away."
"I just thought of something really funny.... that wouldn't bode very well for you dems because guess who has all the firepower!"
Agree with me or I'll kill you. henderson --- the Terri Schiavo of the LV Sun comments section.

By henderson: 8/13/09 at 3:03 p.m.; Suggest removal

Wow! That's quite a stretch of imagination you have there crackhead.

By henderson: 8/13/09 at 3:33 p.m.; Suggest removal

I also don't quite get the Terri Schiavo reference.

By airweare: 8/13/09 at 5:56 p.m.; Suggest removal

"I'm afraid at the rate they are going, we will see another civil war before this term is up."

After 8 years of lies, invasions and cronyism, the refreshing honesty and selfless dedication to the American people that has flowed from this administration offer a chance to redeem our country, rejuvenate our ideals and redirect our attention to the important things: peace, prosperity and health. Obama's term differs notably from the previous administration in its willingness to deal openly with problems we face as a nation; Bush's war was predicated on Sadam's attack on W's daddy, nothing else.

Your evaluation of the core strength of my country is apparently based on diminishing numbers of the elephant party. It is not based on fact. If so, the outrageous demonstration of utter and total stupidity that preceded BO would have catalyzed your new civil war.

By ionfield: 8/13/09 at 10:39 p.m.; Suggest removal

henderson wrote: "I just thought of something really funny.... that wouldn't bode very well for you dems because guess who has all the firepower!"

If you are referring to guns, guess again. I am a very liberal Democrat who also happens to be a NRA member with a CCW, and I never leave home unarmed. My home is also well stocked for defensive purposes. In addition, there are many more like-minded Democrats in this country. Democrats are not fools when it comes to defending ourselves and our families regardless of what some self-serving politicians attempt to force on us.

By SgtRock: 8/13/09 at 11:12 p.m.; Suggest removal

Many Democrats, including the recent appointment to the Supreme Court, do not believe that the right to own guns is protected by the US Constitution.

Democrats are constantly pushing for new gun regulations.

If you want to protect your write to own guns then vote Republican.

By ionfield: 8/14/09 at 12:03 a.m.; Suggest removal

SgtRock wrote: "Many Democrats, including the recent appointment to the Supreme Court, do not believe that the right to own guns is protected by the US Constitution.
Democrats are constantly pushing for new gun regulations.
If you want to protect your write to own guns then vote Republican."

Some Democratic politicians as well as some Republican politicians are anti-gun. There is too much wrong with the Republican Party for my taste. I will stick with one of the most pro-gun politicians I know, our own Democratic Senator Harry Reid, the Senate Majority Leader who has the power to sway opinion in the Senate and determine what legislation sees the light of day.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 8:33 a.m.; Suggest removal

Nance says: "Democrats are constantly pushing for new gun regulations.

If you want to protect your write to own guns then vote Republican."

Write means compose. Jim, were you trying to say "right"?

If you want your children to end up stupid, clueless, illiterate and mean, then by all means vote elephant so they'll have the broad background of sgt rock, including his insightful and entertaining notions about how democrats are somehow unable to hunt. Maybe you'll even get his vocabulary and composition skills.

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 9:37 a.m.; Suggest removal

Certainly nobody could blame Reid for being pro-gun.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 9:50 a.m.; Suggest removal

Ernest Hemingway was a democrat. He knew the difference between accept and except, between write and right; papa bagged more game than Dick Cheney and W, too.

So SgtRock, it's a shame that you're not just an iota more illiterate. Then we wouldn't even have a fuzzy notion of what it is you are trying to say.

Elephants good; donkeys bad. me writt ;u rong.

By Krases: 8/14/09 at 10:31 a.m.; Suggest removal

SgtRock:

There is also a wide selection of Libertarian and Independent's running in elections that also protect gun rights. You can vote for those guys too if you don't like all that extra baggage that comes with the GOP.

By just_an_average_joe: 8/14/09 at 12:21 p.m.; Suggest removal

airweare,

I believe you meant to say "it's a shame that you're not just an iota more LITERATE" (not ILLITERATE as you wrote).

perhaps you should brush up on your own communication skills before you start crucifying others for typos and minor grammatical errors.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 1:01 p.m.; Suggest removal

No Joe, you're clearly missing my point. Now it may be hard for you to understand so I'll take it slowly.

Nance is a very poor speller, writer and logician.

When one reads his posts, one is struck by the difficulty in trying to decipher the words, get the meaning and relate it to the topic.

As I clearly stated, if he could just be a little more illiterate, then there would be absolutely no way to understand any of his posts.

Now that you can understand that it was not I who had made an error, but in fact, it is you, below average Joe.

Crucify is a little strong for offering help, wouldn't you say?

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 1:06 p.m.; Suggest removal

Hey Joe,

Just don't read my posts. That way you won't get confused by language.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 2:19 p.m.; Suggest removal

Hey below average Joe,

"perhaps you should brush up on your own communication skills before you start crucifying others for typos and minor grammatical errors."

My communication skills are among the best in our country, and I know it! I've taught our language at some of the finest schools in the US. I am published frequently.

Elementary Biology teaches that the best way organisms learn is by negative feedback. In other words, Joe, telling somebody how he is goofing up is how he learns.

Poor SgtRock has the hardest time saying anything. As regular readers of this rag well know, his lack of control of the basic unit of English is abhorrent. In my humanitarian effort, I sometimes help people. Have you got problems with nice people helping those whose failing efforts at communications cry out for help?

When you read "So SgtRock, it's a shame that you're not just an iota more illiterate. Then we wouldn't even have a fuzzy notion of what it is you are trying to say.", were you able to understand the second of these two sentences? It would have clued you in to your misreading of the previous sentence which proved too much for you to comprehend.

Kindly refrain from accusing those who do know what they're doing. Also, you may want to take classes for high school drop-outs so you can begin a full life replete with language skill. It will probably be important if you want to say what you mean and not look stupid.

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 4:05 p.m.; Suggest removal

I call bullcrap on airweare! Both on having the best communication skills in the country, also on having any desire to help anyone through negative feedback.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 4:29 p.m.; Suggest removal

Hey Henny,

Where is your joy?

Do you doubt that negative criticism is the most helpful when people are doing something wrong?

Ever hear of tough love? Harvard? Washburn? MIT?

Bullcrap on bozo!!!

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 4:41 p.m.; Suggest removal

Yeah, you're paid to communicate. And pigs fly.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 4:49 p.m.; Suggest removal

Yo Henderson,

I have actually spent the last forty eight years teaching and training, not only here in the US, but in foreign countries as well. I've published, edited and collaborated.

I didn't do it for dough. It comes from altruism, something quite foreign to you, I'll bet. The reason that I feel this way is your comments, not just those aimed at me, but the ones you launch at others as well.

Kindness and respect for individuality have always been my guides. You may never know these values because you're accusatory, selfish, constantly contentious and apparently unable to let go of some over-riding anger that seems to completely dominate your relationships, at least on all your posts.

The reason I am able to be direct with you is that I am convinced (after seventy + years on the planet) that the truth will set you free. You need liberating, sir. You are a caged animal. You're trapped inside a misconception. You are human. That means you can be, sometimes, wrong.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 4:54 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henny,

"Yeah, you're paid to communicate. And pigs fly."

See what I mean about your anger taking control of your thoughts and behavior?

Where in the world did you get the notion that I am paid to post. It is not accurate. I'm a freebie.

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 5 p.m.; Suggest removal

You are a senile old bat!

You do not practice kindness nor respect, you are extremely rude and disrespectful and you call people names.

You are wrong about anger issues, I vent my political frustration here because this is a forum to do that.

The reason you are able to be direct with me? We are all direct with people here you crazy, senile looneytunes!

So far you're batting zero, and I don't believe anything you say other than the fact that you are old.

You've already contradicted yourself too many times and you're a horrible communicator.

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 5:03 p.m.; Suggest removal

I never said you're paid to post. You are the one that said you're one of the best communicators in the country. I was just pointing out the fallacy of that statement and facetiously saying how ironic that people would pay you anything.

The communication skills you've demonstrated here are not impressive. Isn't it about an hour past your bedtime?

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 5:45 p.m.; Suggest removal

Meanwhile that meandering sliver of a river goes roilin' brown, boilin' down through the trees, a silvery swirlin' ribbon a'glimmer, murmuring a message from the mountain to the sea: Gerry Garcia still loves the American River. And, channeling the undernet, rolling down to sea, the only way ol' river knew to do, do, do only way ol' river knew to do.

You want impressive?

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 6:14 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson,

"gmag,

That might be, but what do you say to the people, me being one, that has read the bill and that many of the things the Obamacrats are saying about this bill are completely untrue?"

It's "have", not "has". The reason is simple: the relative pronoun "that" refers to "people"; now Mr. Pigs fly, you tell me. Is it "people has read the bill" or "people have read the bill", genius?

By SgtRock: 8/14/09 at 6:21 p.m.; Suggest removal

airweave..."My communication skills are among the best in our country, and I know it! "

Examples of the person with the best communications skills on planet earth....ever.

"That might be, but what do you say to the people, me being one, that has read the bill and that many of the things the Obamacrats are saying about this bill are completely untrue?"

Yep...that is top notch stuff. Wow....I am reading stuff from a person with one of the best communication skills in the USA!!!!

"We got bad roads that need fixes; our schools are overcrowded; teachers are way underpaid; state workers are getting the shaft; people don't flock to Vegas in droves as in years past."

We got bad road that need fixes.......that is golden high octane communication skills.

"I am not a hypocrite; I am attempting to maintain a dialogue with someone who only wants to fight. "

You do seem to love the ";". I think you must have a basement full of them and do not know where to put them.

"I have a clarification question: If an "enviro" is an environmentalist, why would he or she "obstruct any renewable energy project?"

I think that your attic must be full of ":", too.

Hey punk spell and grammar checker..I have doubts that your communication skills are among the best in our country. But heck, your skills must be top notch being such you spend time to post on this site.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 6:22 p.m.; Suggest removal

Henderson,

Now that I have helped you, when by your language, you demonstrated a need for someone who actually does know the language far better than most, you owe me. I politely informed you of what you did wrong, and I gave you a chance to see how it is wrong so that you never need to demonstrate ignorance again in this matter. I am a nice ol' geezer.

I love stupid people and smart people the same. How you may wonder. Wait til you hit 70. It'll dawn on your mean soul what a wasted life you led acting bad and kickin' ass.

It's not about that. It's about decency and respect for life. It's too bad you seem only to care about the brutal and selfish, constantly berating those who differ from you. Maybe if you spent a few years in some foreign countries, you could learn to see what how lucky you are. And how foolish.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 6:29 p.m.; Suggest removal

Yo Rockster,

"That might be, but what do you say to the people, me being one, that has read the bill and that many of the things the Obamacrats are saying about this bill are completely untrue?"

You quoted Henderson, genius.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 6:37 p.m.; Suggest removal

Jim, nobody wastes much time on your posts because you're not the brightest bulb on the field and it shows, but that's ok. At least you're mean.

By SgtRock: 8/14/09 at 7:34 p.m.; Suggest removal

Airweave.....old grandpa hippy dude

LOL...you are an old dude who has these "tremendous" writing skills and now your height of achievement is posting on this tiny website using lots of colons and semi-colons to prove that you like to use lots of colons and semi-colons.

You are an idiot.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 7:43 p.m.; Suggest removal

Jim,

If I'm an idiot, what does that make you?

I am published in many languages and have been honored for my life works.

I haven't been sucking around Reno like you drinking beer and farting away a lifetime.

Honest to God, I pity you. If only you had done something with your talents, you'd likely not be such a boor, churl and clown.

By SgtRock: 8/14/09 at 7:50 p.m.; Suggest removal

Yes, you are idiot and an old one at that.

Only an idiot goes around boasting on a small website that he has been published in many languages and has been honored for life works.

Only an idiot goes around claiming to have the greatest communication skills in the USA while posting on a small website.

Only an idiot goes around on the small website correcting other people's grammar and spelling while boasting to be a great writer in the USA.

Yes, you are an idiot a hundred times over.

By henderson: 8/14/09 at 7:52 p.m.; Suggest removal

airweare,

Now you're just old and extremely boring.
Go to bed! It's dark out.

By airweare: 8/14/09 at 9:12 p.m.; Suggest removal

Jim,

I wasn't boasting. I was just telling you. It's true, but who cares, right?

I'll have to take your word for all you seem to know about idiocy. I really don't think there's anybody better to describe idiocy than jimmy nance.

It's dark, but nothing like what it must be to thrive with hatred.

When did it become so fashionable to attack old people for their honesty?

By SgtRock: 8/14/09 at 9:21 p.m.; Suggest removal

Yes, an idiot also whines about being attacked when he is often the one who goes around attacking and is the often the first to launch the personal attack.

Also, an idiot is one who throws the hatred word around but is clueless about the hatred that comes forth from his own keyboard and mouth.

I will shed a tear for your pity party, old hippy man.

By Green_Dragon_Regular: 8/14/09 at 10:10 p.m.; Suggest removal

To the cyber-archaeoligists of the future- this place they called Las Vegas, the minds of the people who inhabited it can be gleaned by the literate and logical discourse in this thread. It needs little analysis, for it is as shallow as the city that once stood here.

@li'l "p"- you must feel like a mental giant on these pages.

@all the rest- me and li'l "p", ideologically, are about as diametrically opposed as two could get. I know, it's hard to grasp. Give it a think, or at least ponder it over a basket of chicken fingers and ranch, a Miller Lite, and a few hands of Double Bonus...

By just_an_average_joe: 8/14/09 at 10:50 p.m.; Suggest removal

airweare,

my my but we HAVE touched a nerve haven't we sweet-ums? I just checked back for the first time since lunchtime, and fully half of the posts are of you yapping on and on about what a brilliant communicator and fine humanitarian and overall swell guy you are!!

sorry to bust your bubble pops, but I've got news for you. If you have to toot your own horn, especially at 70 years of age, you really have accomplished very little in your time on earth.

you're just a sad pathetic little man, who never rose above making the median salary in this country, so now you try to convince yourself, and others, that it was only because you NEVER WANTED any of that nasty cash and respect that comes from attaining a high level of professional or career achievement.

and now you are on the side of the socialists, trying to take from those better than you, smarter than you, and harder working than you. since your such a well read person, maybe you should speed-read through the collected works of Ayn Rand this weekend.

you have been exposed for what you are. A sad pathetic old loser. a mean-spirited snotty arrogant old fool. a hypocrite who tries to lay claim to the high moral ground, while you launch petty attacks on others.

By henderson: 8/15/09 at 8:04 a.m.; Suggest removal

airwear,

You know where you should post about your own brilliance without hi-jacking the Sun's comment section?

Get yourself a facebook account. You can rattle on endlessly about how fabulous you are, be as grammatically correct as you like, and nobody will care. More importantly, you will not be boring the entire LV Sun comments section.

This is not the place for you to reflect on your life or to grade our work.

You should also look into local community centers. They have a lot of Senior programs. They might find you interesting. Or they could find you just as blowhardy and arrogant as we do.

I'd be careful, try not to bombard them all at once with your fabulosity, they might rip you to shreds.