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Charlotte Morgan, left, and Julie Liebo, who have been together 19 years, were married in Long Beach, Calif., last year by Las Vegas Pastor Dave Krueger-Duncan, of the Northwest Community Church, before voters closed the door to same sex marriages in November.
Monday, April 6, 2009 | 7:04 p.m.
The Rev. Dave Krueger-Duncan has performed one legal marriage in the seven years he has been a religious leader in Las Vegas.
That was on July 18, 2008, for Julie Liebo and Charlotte Morgan, members of his Northwest Community Church.
The Christian congregation is “open and affirming” to gay and lesbian couples. Morgan said that means “our church is way beyond acceptance. There is no separation between our family and (a heterosexual family). There is simply not a difference.”
It’s hard to find that in any church in America, Liebo said, but they found it in Las Vegas, though they had to get legally married in California.
“I pray for the day when I can do legal weddings here in Las Vegas for gay and lesbian couples as well as straight couples,” Krueger-Duncan said. “Until that day comes, what I can’t do for one I’m disinclined to do for the other.”
That day came, briefly.
Krueger-Duncan married Liebo and Morgan in Long Beach, Calif., after the California Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriages last year. The couple played John Lennon’s “Imagine” during the ceremony.
Many local couples crossed the border to make their relationships legal. That window closed in November, when California voters passed Proposition 8, limiting marriage to heterosexual couples. About 18,000 same-sex marriages were validated in California before then, and they still have the same legal rights there.
Richard Ziser, chairman of the advocacy group Nevada Concerned Citizens, supported Prop 8 in California. He’s also opposed to recent state legislation, introduced by Sen. David Parks, D-Las Vegas, that would give domestic partners the same rights as spouses.
Gay marriage continues to be a national issue. On Friday, Iowa became the first state in the Midwest to approve same-sex marriage. The Iowa Supreme Court unanimously declared a 1998 law limiting marriage to a man and a woman as unconstitutional.
Nevada’s constitution defines marriage as between a man and a woman, an amendment that was spearheaded by Ziser’s organization in 2002.
“Once it (gay marriage) is recognized, it opens the doors for teaching about those relationships in public schools,” Ziser said.
He said that leads to children being taught in schools that same-sex marriage is equal under the eyes of God to a heterosexual marriage.
“And we believe otherwise,” Ziser said, referring to those in his organization and some Christians.
In Krueger-Duncan’s mind, and that of his congregation, God’s plan for marriage is between two people who are in love and committed to each other.
“We don’t believe that God sorts on sexual orientation. Therefore, about a third of our membership is gay or lesbian,” he said.
At 9 a.m. Sunday, about 100 people can be found at his church in east Las Vegas. The sermon sounds familiar. It’s about loving and caring for neighbors, or avoiding pride and greed.
There will be coffee and donuts before, during and after the service. But visitors will find straight and gay couples comfortably relaxing together in the pews, linking arms and holding children. They are young and old. They are of different races and religious backgrounds.
Liebo was Jewish. She felt isolated in her faith. Morgan was baptized in the Lutheran church. She felt unwelcome as a lesbian.
They marched for gay rights while living in Minneapolis, at the genesis of the national movement in 1978. Harvey Milk was making news across the country as the first openly gay man elected to a substantial political position in San Francisco. Liebo and Morgan read stories about the AIDS outbreak, referred to by some then as “gay cancer.” They socialized in an underground cafe that had an armed guard posted at the door.
Gay rights have often been virulently opposed by some people of faith, said the Rev. David Gillentine, associate pastor of Metropolitan Community Church, which serves the gay and lesbian community.
But many gay people still want faith, he said. These spiritual people will find their way to congregations that hold different biblical interpretations of homosexual relationships.
The local Gay & Lesbian Community Center of Southern Nevada refers clients to these churches, said Executive Director Candice Nichols. Often these open churches participate in gay-rights events, such as the upcoming Equality Day events on April 21 and 22.
Gillentine has challenged conservative Christians on the historical and cultural context of the verses they say condemn homosexual unions. Often, they don’t change their mind, he said.
“But we have made some headway,” Gillentine said. “Even when they say ‘love the sinner, hate the sin,’ that’s some progress. But I don’t believe I am in a sin, because I’m in a loving relationship with my partner.”
Gillentine estimated there are about five Christian congregations in Las Vegas that formally accept homosexual couples, and many more are tolerant.
All are welcome at Calvary Chapel Spring Valley to hear the word of God, receive Christ as their savior and experience his life transforming work, said Senior Pastor Derek Neider.
But he’s clear that God’s work includes transforming people from homosexuality.
Calvary Chapel of Las Vegas supported Prop 8 in California. The church is known for its line-by-line exposition and study of the Bible.
“The core of our church is the word of God for every issue,” he said. “We use the Bible to direct and enlighten. And the Bible is clear that the marriage relationship is between a man and a woman.”
Northwest Community Church, where Liebo and Morgan attend, recently moved from the Summerlin area to join its sister congregation, First Congregational Church at 1200 N. Eastern Ave. It celebrated a Palm Sunday grand-opening service on April 5.
“There is a strong strain of interest in social justice issues, anti-poverty, anti-racism and anti-sexism,” said the Rev. Dave Pomeroy about First Congregational, which is part of the United Church of Christ. It has 7,000 independent congregations nationwide.
He said about 10 percent of the United Church of Christ congregations have voted to include gay and lesbian couples, which is what his congregation did last year. Others haven’t taken that official step, but are accepting.
And it was this liberal tradition that brought Liebo and Morgan back to church. Partners for 18 years, they wanted their children to have a faith.
Morgan, a family practice doctor, and Liebo, an administrator at a nursing home in North Las Vegas, adopted two children from China. That process put Liebo back in the closet. Morgan had to do the international adoption as a single parent, because the laws were stacked against same-sex partners. Since then, they’ve re-adopted the girls so that both of their names appear on the birth certificates.
Andé, 10, and Alex, 8, were with their mothers when they got their marriage certificate in Los Angeles.
Liebo said it was the most memorable day in her life. For the first time, her family was affirmed by God and by the government.
“It’s documented,” she said, while gazing at Morgan. “This is the love of my life and has been and for as long as I can remember.”
Liebo said she believes that if any Christian were to sit next to her family in church, they would have a hard time denying their marriage and their love.
Neider said he understands Liebo, but homosexuality is a sin, as it’s a sin for a heterosexual couple to be living together outside of marriage.
“In our church we want everyone to come,” Neider said. “Our door is open. No one is excluded. But the word of God is the authority. Even though it may hurt people’s feelings, God has clearly expressed his position on homosexuality. Even if someone is your friend. Those friendships don’t overrule God’s position.”
"Once it (gay marriage) is recognized, it opens the doors for teaching about those relationships in public schools," Ziser said.
----------------
That argument is profoundly flawed.
At the heart of this argument is the notion that there is some damage done to religion or children if those children learn that there are gay people and that those gay people sometimes marry. In turn, that becomes so egregious that gay people should not enjoy equal protection under the law. Aside from the fact that Ziser seeks to unconstitutionally impose his religious beliefs, there are two indisputable facts:
1. There are gay people in the world and;
2. Sometimes, they lawfully marry.
Exactly why parents should be fearful of the truth or how this creates collateral damage to freedom of religion is never explained. It is sufficient to trot our the fear to accomplish his agenda. Another issue of fact is that children are going to learn many things in school that parents may disagree with. It might be evolution; It might global warming; it might pertain to facts about the Iraq war, torture or other issues relating to the Bush administration. In Home Economics, children might learn that pork must be cooked to 180 degrees. Should Jews be offended that children learn that some people consume pork and shellfish? Or, perhaps, they should be sufficiently confident in their parenting skills to explain their religious beliefs.
David Hart
http://www.tips-q.com
Nevada Concerned Citizens should find something actually relevant to today's society to be Concerned about. How about another witch hunt? The Salem precedents haven't been revisited for awhile. Look around and you can probably find an unused dunking stool.
The threshold issue on gay marriage everyone seems to miss is very clear -- under the fundamental law, the kind of law this once-great nation was founded on, you do NOT need anybody's permission to marry. Sometime back the People bought into the myth it can be licensed, meaning your most intimate of life's relationships requires someone else allowing you to do it. Parents have been replaced by the state with great injustice being the result.
That 2002 Constitutional amendment was a classic example of majority tyranny over a minority, and the Constitution actually contradicting itself. It's all about the power where power never belonged except from bullies and bigots. Don't forget the Nazis were lawfully elected and their laws were legally enacted.
Deduct religion and sin out of the equation and even the morality makes sense.
Good for you, Northwest Community Church! The First Amendment rules!
In the spirit of how we treat the least among us, please consider. Compare and contrast; one of my high school english teachers drilled that into my head. Compare and contrast: Slave rights and gay rights; the contrasts are easy, the comparisons are profound. Slaves could not get legally married either. They could not create and sign contracts, and what is marriage mostly (legally speaking) but a huge contract with thousands of rights and responsibilities. Navanethem Pillay, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights spoke there last year saying, "That just like apartheid laws that criminalized sexual relations between different races, laws against homosexuality are increasingly becoming recognized as anachronistic and inconsistent both with international law and with traditional values of dignity, inclusion, and respect for all." Apartheid: A system of laws applied to one category of citizens in order to isolate them and keep them from having privileges and opportunities given to all others. Stop gay apartheid.
This is a highly charged emotional issue, but it is wrong to compare homosexual civil rights to the civil rights of blacks. Being born of a race is different than being born or becoming homosexual, because being born a human being with dark skin is not wrong. Because this article brought faith into the issue I will answer from faith. I will answer with truth and true love. Not faith and false love biased by societal pressure. Homosexuality is a human trait in the same manner as lying and stealing are. It is a perversion resulting from the fall of man and an abomination against God. Just like we should not stand for habitual lying, stealing, and adultery, we should not condone homosexual relationships.
I know you are angry, but I didn't invent that logic. I speak honestly from my heart, and from God's word with love for your soul. God has placed homosexuality into the same context as idolotry, blasphemy, being disobedient to parents, murder, adultery, stealing, lying, and coveting. He has placed it into the category of things that he declares to be sin. He declares that along with people who commit the sins listed above, no practicing, unrepentant homosexual will inherit His kingdom.
Also, contrary to popular belief, this is a slippery slope. Just as we have seen with abortion and assisted suicide, homosexual marriage is just the first step. How can we outlaw polygamy, beastiality, and adult child relationships if we allow homosexual marriage? As of now these things are as abominable to most of us has homosexuality used to be. They shock the conscious as homosexuality once did.
God understands that we are all sinners. My lying, and adulterous lusting after women I am not married to are no different in His eyes, but unfortunately they are socially acceptable. God has provided a savior from the penalty (eternal Hell) he has decreed for those who sin (all of us). He became the sin bearer, the perfect sacrifice, when God the Son, Jesus Christ, paid the penalty for our sins on the cross. His blood paid the fine you and I owed to God. If you understand that you are a lawbreaker,turn from your sins, and place your faith in Jesus Christ, you will be saved...possibly even delivered from the lusts of homosexuality. This is a free gift of infinite, eternal value. Do not reject so great a salvation! He is a God of mercy, but He is also a God of judgement and wrath.
Another reason not to live in Iowa. Like you need one...
This is where Ziser gets exposed as a bigot.
It's no longer enough to "protect marriage," now he seeks to prevent even domestic partnerships. It clues everyone in to how disingenuous and deceptive their entire campaign was a few years back. It was never about protecting marriage. That work is done.
Now it's about explicitly discriminating against gay and lesbian Nevadans. To prevent them from having even a "separate but equal" provision, Ziser's campaign is to shoot down even domestic partnerships.
This has never been about protecting marriage; Ziser and his campaign lied.
Those of us who truly love our gay family and friends understand that people like Richard Ziser are operating out of a place of tremendous fear. They see that, even in Iowa, equality has continued its march toward triumph. Ziser may continue his campaign to discriminate, but I think Nevadans have grown tired of their fear-mongering.
"Teaching" homosexuality in schools? Is acknowledging the personal lives of some of the most noted statesmen, artists, scientists and philosophers "teaching" homosexuality, or acknowledging truth? Would these people rather LIE to our children?
Reid supported and voted for the Nevada ban on gay marriage.
State Senator Copening goes to Ziser's church which takes a strong stand against gay marriage and abortion.
Since Calvary Chapel supports a "line by line exposition of the bible" and its condemnation of sins, I wonder why they allow women to wear pants in the sanctuary and why they serve ham at their church dinners. Both of those activities are condemned in the same book of the bible as is homosexuality. Smacks of selective enforcement to me.
Sean S: You must be very tired from misquoting your little book of stories. The Bible, was not written by GOD, rather it was an interpretation about God's word, written by men. I took a Bible as Literature class at Cal Poly and if you really look at the Bible and all the stories you will find many different stories that will support just about any little cause you may or may not have, depending on the way the story is presented.
I know you seem very happy to give us all YOUR interpretation of the "Great Big Book or Stories" and for that I am glad you are so enlightened, however, unless you have recently sat down with God himself and had coffee at Starbucks and you recorded your discussion of homosexuality, I would be quiet if I was you.
Homosexuality is for many the "way" they were born, just like 2% of all animals that mate for life are born seeking same-sex partners that mate for life.
My feelings are really quite simple: You can take the Bible and twist and turn the word of God and use it for demonic rituals if you wanted to or you can look at the Bible as a tool to show God's love, which is how we looked at it in my Bible, as Literature class. Either you take every single thing the Bible says at it's literal word, or you just try to find a good message of love.
Either way, you can not ignore gay people because they have been around since the beginning of time and they are not going anywhere.
I believe it is a big leap from allowing gay people to get married, to teaching homosexuality in schools. Do you really believe that kids are oblivious to gay people? Give me a break, they know all about gay people.
They repeat what they hear at home in the schools all day. You can hear their parents hate coming through loud and clear. What a precious thing to pass on to your children. Hate in the name of God. What a sick message.
Try passing on the real word of God:Love and acceptance for all.
"They take the Bible apart line by line" and use it to "rule their life".
I feel sorry for people like this who can't think for themselves outside the box. This is no different than any cult. Call it anything you wish, but mind control by any cult is just that - mind control.
Hope the mother ship phones them before beaming them up.
Great story, Becky! The Northwest Community Church sounds really cool. I hope to attend a Sunday service sometime soon.
dave202 Who needs a nit wit with only one purpose in life and that is to make noise and show true ignorance?
You obviously don't understand a thing about law, courts and the decisions that they make and how other states and government agencies are affected by these types of decisions,not to mention how the decisions affect peoples daily lives. My guess is it is easier for you to show your ignornace,hate,and total concern for the facts of a case.
It really makes me no difference how any court rules on this issue but I resent ignorant, hate mongering rednecks as well as neo con evangelists who want to tell America how to live as they have forgotten most of Jesus's teachings. The real question is who needs a Dave202?
Now that the Vermont Legislature has voted to override the governor's veto of marriage equality in Vermont, that old "only through EVIL ACTIVIST JUDGES" talking point is shot down.
Or will it now be "EVIL ACTIVIST LEGISLATURES!"?
To Starrynite: A Big AMEN!
As a fellow UCC member, I'm proud of the way our denomination has historically stood up for the rights of ALL people. I'm encouraged by the Northwest Community Church- thanks for telling their story!
Radical churches like the Northwest Community Church of Las Vegas have always been popping up on the Christian grid over the ages, only to be shut down by the legitimate Christian churches that adhere to the literal interpretation of the Living Word, the Bible.
" Ziser --- said that leads to children being taught in schools that same-sex marriage is equal under the eyes of God to a heterosexual marriage."
Our schools aren't supposed to be teaching religion - in case Ziser hasn't noticed. Our schools are supposed to be teaching "life, liberty and happiness" for everyone.
Why is it "hate" to want marriage to remain what it's supposed to be: the union of a man and a woman? I don't "hate" gays, in fact many of my friends are gay. They know that I disagree with them on this issue, but they don't "hate" me for it. So why do you "hate" me? It's that "hate" that will totally destroy your cause. It's possible to disagree without hating.
LasVegas, disagreeing with someone is not hate. Excluding somebody is not hate. As for you elitist thoughts of people not good enough, I believe that is the sole dominion of the left.
Our Country is an amazing place, it is full of diversity, and that diversity is under fire by the PC police.
I think if gays want to marry let them do it, but stop with the "hate speak" just because somebody disagrees.
Religion screws up everything!
agree with dave202. disagreeing over something is not hate as LV2009 states. i have gay friends also, but i dont agree with it. only thing i hate about it is the fact that some people, especially those in the spotlight, have to go and try and shove their lifestyle down my throat, or go and threaten to teach kids in elementary schools about their lifestyles if they don't get their way. if you want to live your lifestyle, go ahead, but don't come preaching to me about the lifestyle and why you should be able to live that lifestyle. you hate 'religious' people trying to shove their beliefs down your throat, so why shove your Gay Rights beliefs down ours? funny how if a teacher were to hypothetically take their class on a religious field trip, everyone would throw up a storm, but it's ok for a fieldtrip to a gay marriage?
So many good comments, so many bad comments, so little space ....
starrynite -- we're mostly on the same page here.
To enhance your comment there's the historical perspective on the bible from our founding fathers. Jefferson's word for that book was "dunghill."
Thomas Paine: "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."
And so on. Source: "SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS" by John E. Remsburg.
I go to Northwest Community Church, and I'm proud to be part of a fully welcoming, loving community of faith. I'm also proud to know Julie and Char. They are an amazing couple and wonderful parents. I'm straight, and I think a lot of straight folks fear LGBT folks just because they don't know them. It's easy to be fearful of something that's strange and unknown to you. I really think if some of the people who have written anti-same sex marriage comments would just stop by our church and get to know people different from them, they would see that there's nothing to be afraid of. It has really been a blessing to be able to celebrate so many of our members' new marriages in California. It's so nice to see God's love expressed in all the different kinds of relationships in our church.
I used to think that being a "good, believing Christian" included working to "preserve marriage." For a while, I could tell myself that I could "love the sinner, but hate the sin."
Then I got real. My GLBT friends and loved ones, most of whom fought for YEARS not to be gay, were born that way. They have suffered for it. Thankfully, most of them have embraced it and even found love. How could I call them friend while simultaneously condemning them?
Being gay is not a "lifestyle." It's not something someone chooses because the pride parades are a lot of fun. It is a part of who someone is. We don't choose our sexual orientation.
To tell a same-sex couple that they cannot enjoy the same civil rights to marriage is discriminatory. Telling the same to inter-racial couples was discriminatory. And discrimination is a form of hate.
God is love. I believe that God loves love, even when that love is shared between two people of the same gender. If your church doesn't agree, then don't marry gay couples at your church. Their legally recognized union won't interfere with heterosexuals'. Marriage and families won't be undermined by same gendered love.
Also, please don't hide behind protecting children when opposing gay marriage. Just say you think it's wrong. And fully experience your choice to be on the wrong side of history.
"Time and truth ... are on the side of the oppressed" (paraphase of Malcolm X).
All of the arguments miss the point!
Public schools do not teach what GOD thinks. The First Amendment to the US Constitution is very clear on Separation of Church and State! Marriage is a state issue, not a religious one as only the state can issue a marriage license, not a church.
Also, the writer who spoke of being born black not equating to being born gay is so confused on rights under the constitution. If choice makes one immune to constitutional rights, then all people of faith should not longer have rights because "YOU CHOOSE YOUR RELIGION", no one is really born a Christian, a Muslim, etc. etc. Your parents first choose your religion, then you choose one or choose none.
Live and let live - I know a guy who's been with the same partner for more than 30 yrs. - how many hetero's stay together and remain monogomous for that length of time? I personally don't care what another person wants to do with their live as long as they're not out there killing people.
Those who are opposed to "gay" marriage are obviously unaware of a couple of things, mainly the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which allows for equal protection under the law, and the Separation of church and State.
In order to get married IN ANY STATE, a marriage license is required FROM THE STATE, and not from the church in which the marriage will take place. The church, synagogue or mosque must comply with the laws of the State before the marriage can take place. If any church, synagogue or mosque does not want to perform a gay marriage in their place of worship, so be it. But it is not in the pervue of the STATE to deny ANYONE the right to get married based on RELIGIOUS precepts. That is what the 14th Amendment is all about. If a person is a citizen of a city, county, State and Nation, they are entitled to ALL rights and privileges that are allowed to all other citizens. You cannot single out one group for non-inclusion in those rights and privileges based on RELIGIOUS ideas.
If anyone can come up with a NON-RELIGIOUS reason why they feel that 2 gay people should not get married, I'd really like to hear it.
As for Richard Ziser - the less said the better! The man is a carpet bagger and should be run out of ANY town - especially Las Vegas.
I don't understand all the talk about "life-style" and "choices". I was born straight, its not a "life-style" I choose. I have friends who happen to be gay and some are lesbian. They have told me that they were born the way they are and that it wasn't a choice for them either. I'm happy with who I am, they are happy with who they are. Why shouldn't I want them to be happy? What is there to get all bent out of shape about?
Some people seem to base their anxiety about gay and lesbian people on the bible. The bible doesn't tell us to sit in judgment of each other -- that's reserved for God. Jesus only asked us to love each other. So I wonder why afveteran doesn't think that Northwest Community Church is "legitimate". I also wonder why afveteran is so interested in having churches like Northwest "shut down" by "legitimate" churches. Historically this has been accomplished by execution and torture. If someone can find where in the bible Christ tells us to kill each other over who is a "legitimate" Christian and who is not, please post that passage here so everyone can see it.
What is really appaling to me is how many people in the world are still held in sway by myths whose roots go back over 2,000 years, and were then warped and twisted into a codex of control by a cabal of wealth and power-hungry men. The power of faith is truly impressive, when an otherwise sane individual can base a belief system on the whimsy of men who had no better understanding of science than my hamster.
As for what is taught in schools...I grew up in a non-traditional family (my Mom, and her best friend, a gay woman, they were not a couple), and never had any conflict because my schoolbooks typically approcahed family from a traditional sense. I was not horrified and affected by not being raised by a father; I grew up fine (more or less), never needed counseling, etc. Today's parents are oversensitive with their children, worried about how they will take everything. Kids are tougher than you think, if you treat them with some respect.
I believe people's personal lives are their own business, but if two people, whether gay or straight, want to live together and share responsibilities, let them be married and be done with it. There is absolutely no detriment to allowing gay marriage, other than insecure, ignorant people who refuse to accept a more diverse world.
since this place is into "sideshow" weddings, how about a man that wants to marry his horse, or a sheep......wonder what they will endorse next .......it is obvious this is not a church that follows the word of God and teachings of Jesus......to each his own and I am not one and will not judge those that make decisions.....that is to be done to us all when the time comes....but we also dont have to approve and agree to participate
Good point smoke. I'm wondering when I can start having a couple more wives. Maybe Joseph Smith was correct. lol when will this madness stop
Majordad -- and what would be wrong with you being a polygamist?
smoke14's stupid comment aside, the principle is still the same -- as long as consenting adults are involved, what exactly are the reasons government should be telling you who you can and can not marry?
Hint: "it's the law" is the lamest excuse next to religious factors.
God Bless you Pastor Derek Neider. I appreciate a pastor that stands for Truth. The Word clearly states how GOD feels about homosexuality. If we allow marriage to be twisted into something other than what GOD has defined it, where do you draw the line. People will want polygamy, incest, beastiality, and GOD forbid what else. Christ died yet while we were sinners. I will continue to pray for those that are still slaves to their sins. I have been forgiven and now a slave to righteousness. GOD BLESS
The problem is, "OnlyOneTruth," most people pick and choose what to follow from the Bible.
When you encounter a psychic or a palm reader on the street, do you stone them to death?
Do you prevent the blind or "lame" from worshipping?
If not, then your words ring hollow.
OnlyOne(Opinion) -- "GOD" is completely irrelevant to this and any other discussion involving reasonable participants.
"After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands." -- Frederich Nietzsche
Cults and Governments have no place in the private affairs others, while it seems unconscionable for some to willingly lay down the welcome mat to their bedrooms of criticism.
Secular entities, like commie governments, have murdered far more people than any religious entity on this planet and that is true if you just based it on the number of their own citizens that they put to death much less adding in the murder of non-citizens or their policies that resulted in millions of deaths.
Believe in God, question religion. God's agenda is peace, grace and mercy. Man's agenda is greed, hate and exclusion. Choose wisely.