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February 9, 2010

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GAMING:

As slots get tighter, so do some retirees

Locals casinos say they’re bucking statewide trend; many customers disagree

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Sam Morris

During a mah-jongg game at the Anthem community center in Henderson set up for the Sun, from left, Barbara Becker, Joyce Servello, Sharon Kalvert and Dottie Randesi have a laugh. The women say they’re opting for games such as mah-jongg more often because of slot machines that seem to pay out less than before.

Friday, Oct. 3, 2008 | 2 a.m.

Gamblers playing penny slots pay a price

Nevada’s slot machines are tighter than in past years, according to state figures.

Gaming Control Board numbers show that many properties have replaced dollar and quarter machines with penny slots, which generally return a smaller percentage of wagers.

Payback percentages define how much a slot machine returns to players over a long period of time. A machine with a 93 percent payback, for example, is designed to pay back 93 percent of every dollar wagered. The percentage is a theoretical figure realized over millions of wins and losses and generally doesn’t reflect the experience of individual players, whose results are largely random.

In order to change a machine’s payback, a casino must switch out a computer chip in each device — a process that can take several hours for an entire casino floor.

A casino that tightens a machine must use a payback percentage previously approved by the Gaming Control Board for that particular game.

In Nevada, payback percentages are generally much higher than the minimum payback threshold of 75 percent required by law.

Nevada’s tracking of slot machine paybacks includes video poker machines as well as regular slot machines.

On a weekday afternoon, the Anthem community center in Henderson is filled with the sounds of retirement: laughter and gossip circulate as mah-jongg tiles clack, cards snap and pool balls click.

There are no TVs blaring news of the turmoil on Wall Street or the foreclosure crisis. Those troubles seem distant. And in fact, thanks to pensions, investments and Social Security benefits, for many of the valley’s middle- and upper-class retirees, life isn’t much different from before the downturn.

Unfortunately for the casino industry, some retirees — a sweet spot for locals casinos, which depend on their discretionary dollars — say they’re spending less of their disposable income on slots because their money doesn’t seem to go as far as it once did. Casinos, they say, have tightened their machines to boost the bottom line.

Casino executives have explained the precipitous decline in Nevada’s slot revenue in recent months as a reflection of the economy. If people’s homes and investments are worth less and they are spending more for gas and other staples, they have less for gambling.

Unnoticed, or at least unmentioned, are people such as Barbara Becker. Between plays of mah-jongg at the Anthem center, she explained she drops only a few dollars in the slot machines each week — a lot less than in years past. She’s spending more on shopping and movies.

“It’s not as much fun anymore,” Becker said of the slots. “Your $20, or more than that, only lasts 15 minutes. There’s very little give and take — it’s all take.”

Nevada slots are indeed tighter than they were a few years ago, according to the Gaming Control Board. Over the past eight years, the data show a gradual increase in casinos’ slot hold, or a lowering of the percentage of wagers returned to players. The board publishes percentages for slots by region, though casino-specific data are confidential.

Much of this can be explained by the fact that casinos have replaced many of their traditional dollar and quarter machines with new “penny” machines. Penny machines, which can cost as much to play as higher-denomination slots, allow players to wager as little as a penny per spin and offer more paylines, or chances to win. The trade-off is they pay back a lower percentage of wagers, on average, than higher-denomination machines.

Officials of several locals casinos say they haven’t tightened their machines to shore up shaky profits. In general, casinos have reported a drop-off in play from casual gamblers more than regulars, who make up most of their customer base. Casual gamblers are customers who come to a casino mainly to see a movie or eat at a restaurant rather than gamble, Boyd Gaming spokesman Rob Stillwell said.

Anthony Curtis, publisher of the Las Vegas Advisor newsletter, said he is hearing more complaints from players about tighter machines.

Casinos “are in a tough spot right now” because it’s difficult to assure players that they haven’t tightened games, Curtis said. “The word of mouth is going to be painful for them.”

Neither Curtis nor local casino consultant Jeffrey Compton has seen any evidence that casinos have fitted their existing slots with new computer chips to tighten them, though they acknowledged that’s a growing perception among players.

Tightening machines “takes hours of work and more hours of paperwork,” Compton said. “It’s a serious strategy that isn’t done on a whim.”

It would be poor timing for any casino to tighten slot machines during a downturn, when customers are already watching their budgets and especially sensitive to corporate profit-boosting measures, he added.

What these retirees want more than anything is more time with their favorite slot machine rather than a quick kiss and go.

“They can have all the money we walk in with,” Las Vegas resident Bob Coch said. “We just want to spend some time in the casino.”

“It’s kind of a slap in the face,” he said. “I can remember when my money lasted longer. Each year you get less and less for it ... We can go out and have a meal that lasts longer than the money” spent on slots.

Some gaming executives and experts say customers are likely imagining that casinos have tightened their machines. Players are more aware of — and bothered by — their losses when times are bad, they say.

Players have raised concerns about slot tightening that turned out to be unfounded, yet were triggered by certain events that raised suspicion, such as an expensive upgrade at a casino, Compton said.

The tightening theory makes some sense during this downturn. Raising prices for things such as rooms, buffets and steak dinners is difficult for locals casinos, where consumers expect deals and watch prices. The “price” of a slot machine, however, is hidden from the public. Why not lower the payback percentage, a theoretical number that has little effect on an individual’s short-term return yet can improve the casino’s profit over millions of spins?

Experts say, however, that lowering payback percentages is foolhardy because it can backfire.

“A customer will forgive you if you tighten up on comps during a slowdown,” Compton said. Not so with tighter machines.

“During waking hours, some of your customers are spending more time at the slots than with their husbands,” he said. “This is something that people pick up on.”

Michael Gaughan, who owns South Point, said it makes more sense to loosen machines during a downturn. He said he’s done that to certain machines at his casino.

“If it takes an hour more to lose your money, it might cost me two or three extra drinks, but it’s worth it,” he said. “People will have more fun.”

Some players say Gaughan is benefiting from the belief — whether perception or reality — that his casino’s payback percentages are higher than those of some of the other big locals casinos.

“It’s not by accident that you go down to the South Point and you can’t find a seat,” said Las Vegas resident John Darcy, a retired banker who says his money has been relatively insulated from the downturn. “I don’t mind losing. But don’t abuse me along the way.”

Still, Gaughan said the casino may look busy, but customers are spending less overall.

While many locals casinos are looking like ghost towns during the daytime, when seniors generally gamble, the Anthem senior center is crowded.

At the mah-jongg table, Sharon Kalvert said she and her husband will go to dinner and a movie at a casino and leave without glancing at a slot machine.

“That’s more than you’d win at the casino,” quipped Kalvert, eyeing her pile of quarters.

Discussion: 39 comments so far…

Comments are moderated by Las Vegas Sun editors. Our goal is not to limit the discussion, but rather to elevate it. Comments should be relevant and contain no abusive language. Comments that are off-topic, vulgar, profane or include personal attacks will be removed. Full comments policy.

  1. Gaming Control says machines are tighter than a few years ago. Curtis and Compton infer it is a mis-perception. Someone has their head in the sand.

  2. Comment removed by staff.

  3. The current generation of slot machines are actually quite visually stimulating, what with the flashing lights, animations, and bonus rounds. While yes slots don't have the greatest odds, they also offer the least pressure on the player. Many people feel pressured at a table where their mistakes can be criticized/hurt other people. Quite frankly if someone wants to just sit, enjoy a drink (alcoholic or non), and while away some time, so be it.
    Much can be said of other pursuits people enjoy. How about football? Wow, tussling around to move a ball up and down a field with action stopping every minute... fun, but again if that makes you happy, so be it. Whatever floats your boat as long as it doesn't crash into mine.

  4. Curtis has a knack for embellishing his position and it is obvious he is a 'house man'. To change a computer chip takes minutes and can be done by casino employees without an employee of the Gaming Control Board watching. The paper work is minuscule, once again done by a casino employee. The only reqirment is the chip be Gaming Control Board approved. A 1 to 2 per cent payout difference is huge and does affect payouts. The locals casinos are playing just as tight as the strip and make no mistake about it there are plenty of local casinos in financial trouble. For years local casinos could count on unsophisiticated players to give up their disposable income with a slap on the back,cheap buffet and a cheaper gift. Now the cat is out of the bag,locals are getting the shaft and told to like it. Is it any wonder local casinos are either being sold ( as long as the buyer does not back out),changing from publicly traded to privately owned or soon to close the doors. Give these goons some help don't go to the local casino until they learn to once again value your patronage.

  5. maybe there is a different problem. if people feel the slots are tighter (i.e. that do not get to play for as long for thier $20) and the casinos say they have not tightened thier slots (thier payouts have not been lowered)maybe it is in the programing. most people who are complaining are the people who have played for years on quarter and dollar 3 reel machines. i have perceived that they mostly pay few large payouts as opposed to several small payouts that they use to make, so they still payout the same percentage, just in a different way. this is what the people who are complaining (nearly everyone) are wanting. they don't play to get rich, they play for entertainment.any casino execs who might be reading this can contact me, if they want more ideas of how to get customers back!

  6. I believe the above writer, Homer, is correct when he writes The local casinos made the decision to give us locals the shaft several years ago. They conspired with IGT to change the way slots/video poker machines work. They changed the way the RNG functions which changed the payout without the casino execs having to get permission from the Gaming Commission to change the payout odds on any given machine. They did this on the local's favorite game, video poker. Now there is no, or very little play. These machines play differently and pay much less. Locals would go to a csino with confidence that they could sit and play for a few hours with a $100 bill. Eat a simple meal, and go home happy. This is impossible now. A player has to bring at least $300 to be able to spend some time in the casino. The hot place to play now is the Indian casinos along the Eastern Coast. From New York to Florida, people are playing and enjoying their time. And the benefits offered by the players clubs are 1000 times more generous. A friend in Florida gets $200 freeplay a week and plays about a third as much as I ever did in this town.

    Good luck, Everyone,
    T

  7. Hmmm... Somewhere in the US Constitution, I'm sure, there is a clause that prohibits Casinos from not giving whiny seniors a payout. Isn't it our God given right to win while playing the slots?

  8. Nope. But seniors do have a right to question why their money at a casino seems to dry up in record time. If they can only go there to lose $50 in half an hour, then they figure they can save money or at least spend it better elsewhere. There was a time when local casinos paid out to the locals better, and these folks remember that. Can you blame them, not for whining, but for calling the casino out on what they see? Gambling (in moderation) is fun, but the fun is taken out of it when you sit down and watch all that money run through your hands in record time.

  9. It's not just seniors that are noticing. When I first moved here 6 years ago, I used to go into a Coast casino and get a good amount of play on the quarter video poker machines for $50. After a year or so, I started to notice that there was less and less play. When it reached that point that my first $25 - $30 was just siphoned off with nothing in return except for an even money payback or two, I stopped playing.

  10. Thank you! As the saying goes, you can shave a cat as many times as you want, but you can only skin him once.

  11. We used to go weekly for the buffet and use our comp points. Then the points stopped adding up as quick, even tho we were using the same budgeted amount on the machines. Then the time at the machines went faster. Now we don't even go there to eat anymore. No points, no fun at the machines, and can't afford the price of the buffet on our fixed income. It's not just the "current market" that has changed our perceptions. My budget hasn't changed, but obviously something must have been altered if my money doesn't go as far in the same casino as in the past.

  12. i am a senior and from out of town. i also see a big diference in payouts. they are much smaller. they tell me that comps are going to get less. i can handle that but stop hitting the machines. i fly to vegas 4 times a year superbowel could be my last time.

  13. Wow. I thought rubes went out in the '40's.

  14. Well, I just lost $300 on Penny Machines in a couple of hours (at Red Rock Casino) -- that bankroll used to last me at least three or four days. Are slots tighter now? -- HELL YEAH!!! They have KILLED the GOLDEN GOOSE!!! Oh, and for the record, Michael Gaughan's SOUTHPOINT is so damn tight I stopped playing there completely months ago. If any casino spokesperson (owner or PR hack) tries to tell you they haven't tightened their slots they are LYING through their teeth. Greed kills, folks . . . and the bigger they are the harder they fall.

  15. "i am a senior and from out of town... i fly to vegas 4 times a year superbowel could be my last time."

    Superbowel? ha ha ha nice!

  16. Oh, and just notice all the comments on this article -- this is an issue WE REALLY CARE ABOUT!!! We are more than willing to play the slots, if we can just get a little time, entertainment, and a perceived chance of winning for our dollar. Those days are over, now it is just an exercise in futility and NO FUN at all. I will be attending the Global Gaming Expo next month and have just one message to send to the industry . . . at least give the player a fighting chance and you won't have to worry about a weakening economy. Folks will always find an excuse to wager when they think they can win.

  17. Finally...verification that we're not losing our minds....just our money! We fly to LV about 4 times a year...the "free rooms, food, and shows" are becoming more expensive each trip. VP is virtually a "suck you dry" game on the strip now.

    We're cancelling our annual November trip and have no plans for trips next year...one trip should be plenty if that!

  18. My husband and I came out here 3 years ago. He came out of retirement to teach here. Casinos slots were tight then but you still had a shot a winning something and your money did last longer. Now it seems like they are all on the take. Worst of all is the new Cannery on Boulder. We went for the first time last night and there was NO way to hit on any machine. I am a hopper and go from machine to machine. Out of the possible 30 machines that I played not one gave a decent win. My husband plays the Wheel of Fortune slots quarters. 95% of the time there was no symbol in the first position. When he did get something it was cherries. The machine should be renamed "Chery Wheel of Fortune." We go to the casinos to have fun and expect to spend some money, not to be robbed!! Advice to all stay away from the Cannery on Boulder or just mail them a check and save the gas!

  19. ON our last trip(March08) stayed week at MGM and week at South Pointe....never had such poor payback...many times put $20 in and got absolutely nothing back!! at both places..at least MGM comp'd total bill...S.P.-nothing and construction noise terrible..."they" have taken the fun out of a Vegas vacation..am convinced machines are tighter..dont' plan on returning unless things change..do much better at local casinos in Canada..and that's a switch!!

  20. LvTom, The Constitution guarantees freedom of expresion and the people who post here do not need a nit wit post cop telling them what to write. The Constitution does allow for stupid people to have opinions too and unfortunately other people with brains must suffer them . If you have nothing positve to contibute go bother someone else. You could go to a casino to but the allowance you get from your guardian prohibts you staying long.

  21. I am writing from Australia. We have the same gripes as you guys and worse lately, by far. The gambling industry here explains that the return to players has not changed...just the machines have changed...that means that more money is spent per spin with more paylines....and we are now betting more per spin.
    I do not believe that to be the only cause of lower perceived payouts. The lower payouts are too consistent.
    When I began playing poker machines I could have a good night out for $50-$100. NOW...an average time out of say 2-3 hours costs $600-800 before you can turn around usually. It is woeful. Sure our money spent per spin might be higher...but then shouldn't the rate of return be higher...when we ever DO win? And that is rarer too!
    We get told that winning is impossible because the house always takes a stake...but frankly I wish that I could still have back 87% of what I have spent over 15 years of pokies! A win is now so remote...and when it does come it is so low...that there is nothing more to think than the casinos are tweaking machines.
    If ever the casinos are questioned we run the risk of being told that we are deluded (and maybe we are in our thinking....though our misunderstanding is understandable with all the secrecy that shrouds the workings of this industry)...but if we can no longer have a decent night out for a fair and reasonable 'spend'....then the casinos have a case to answer...in bringing in more 'expensive' machines...when they also promote pokies as a 'legitimate, fun recreation'. Losing hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars per time is NOT fun for anyone...and machines should be changed back to 'slower and lower'...if that is what must be done!
    It is also amazing that you guys still seem happy to bring pokies into your country...eg Maryland. There is a big push here in Australia to have the wretched machines completely BANNED! We have all had a gutful. It is no longer a legitimate, 'value for money' recreation!

  22. suzy105 I go to the Rampart casino and went there when it opened with the two previous owners before The Cannery Casinos took over. I have watched all three owners and gambled with all three. The Cannery Casino's are the worst gamble in town, when confronted about their tight machines they make Sarah Palin look like a Rhodes Scholar. Stay away.They have some of the nicest bartenders,waiters,waitress's,cage people in the city but upper management people have a prison guard mentality.
    Somebody get LV_Tom out of the street he is chasing cars again and needs a changing.

  23. My boyfriend and I just returned from Vegas. We played slots for 3 days and lost $3500. He played quarter and dollars, I played quarters and penny slots. My only hit was for $75 in Imperial Palace. We visited almost every casino on the strip, and a few on Freemont. This was our 3rd trip in as many years and we've decided never to go back. There's no reason for us to fly across the country to lose our money. We live in PA and have 2 new casinos within 1/2 an hour's drive. They don't pay too great either but at least there are days when we can come home with our money still in our pockets. Pretty soon people who live in Vegas will have to fly out to the East Coast to have a shot at winning.

  24. LV Tom - it's too bad you see people making statements, facts as they perceive them, as whining. I suppose you NEVER utter a negative word ever right. Ah, the beauty of free speech. If you don't want to read the "whining" you can always move on.

  25. And stay away from those "Guaranteed Play" slots at the Stations Casino's. Do the math and you will see what a gigantic rip-off they are. Nothing worse then staring at a negative factor while playing and that's what the machines do for every spin that doesn't produce a winner you will be looking at a negative number. Tried it once and that was more than enough more me. Luckily it was on Station's own money because they sent out invites to come watch a short presentation of the game and then gave 2 twenties to try it out....it was bad is all I can say about it.

  26. Banpokies: I wouldn't go so far as to push for a ban on ANY type of game/machine because then you're removing a persons free choice to play or not play. I understand your feelings but it's still a persons' right to make their own choice.

  27. It seems that the spirit of LV has changed just in the last five years. Pricier rooms, shows for hundreds of dollars and bottle service (service?). It's nice to read that corporate greed is not going unnoticed. People don't necessarily expect to win, but they do expect to play...

  28. I'll take a Vegas experience anytime over any Indian Casino in California. We live near six Indian casinos (Pechanga, Pala, Pauma, Harrahs Rincon, Valley View and Soboba). NONE of them keep you playing as long as any of the machines in any Downtown Vegas casino. My husband and I go to Vegas every other month - one of the "best" Indian casinos in the area is only 10 minutes away from us. We view gambling as entertainment and have a budget. We willingly put our money into the VP or slot machines - all the money that we gamble with is "donated" by us. If we win, more fun for us. If we lose, well, we had fun. We have never thought of losing our money to a casino as getting "robbed". Hello people - it's gambling!!!

  29. One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the introduction of 'ticket-in ticket-out' machines. I believe this to be the beginning of the 'no play slots.' They just seem to suck up the money so much faster. The LVRJ printed an article a few months ago stating that gaming drop had risen a few percentage points, but the win had increased dramatically. What does that tell you? Don't tell me slots are not tighter, because the new slots are tighter and I won't play any casino that only has the new machines. Yes, that means you, Stations.

  30. heres a better idea

    get in your car

    drive down to whiskey petes

    cross the state line and buy california lottery tickets at the quick-mart.....better odds than vegas slots

  31. I agree with all of the comments about the tight slot machines. I like to play three card poker. When I first started playing in Las Vegas the minimum bet (which I always play) was three dollars. Now it is MUCH greater - especially on the Strip or casinos on a Friday night or a weekend. Who can afford that? Certainly not me. It really takes the fun out of vacationing in Las Vegas. The casino bosses are killing/have killed the golden goose (average American) because of greed. Hello Indian casinos outside of LV!

  32. Vegasanytime, I don't recall reading a bunch of notes on here from people complaining about not 'winning' - the people writing DO realize it's gambling - the major complaint seems to be the amount of play time one gets for their buck these days - against my better judgement and partially due to reading all these posts I stopped at Sunset Station yesterday with my husband - we each put in $20 in a nickel video poker - it was 'double on' so our max bet was 10 coins - he played double-double and I played Deuces Wild Bonus - he lost his 20.00 in exactly 5 minutes and it took me 7 minutes to lose mine - sorry but that's not getting any value whatsoever - I didn't intend to leave with my $20 bill intact but I also didn't intend to leave within 10 minutes of arriving. Sad fact is that if we had gotten reasonable playing time before losing we probably would have both put out another $20 - so while we may have left losers so, in a sense, did Sunset. I am done with all Station casino's for sure. And no, I'm NOT whining - I'm merely conveying my experience.

  33. and when you find your drive time from CA. to Las Vegas is greater than your actual playing time you may start to think a little differently as well - who knows, maybe you will be the lucky one to win big - sure hope so as I'd love to see someone other than the Casino's cashing in all the time.

  34. Many things add to this perception. I've been casino gambling since 1993, and I also have that perception. It's not just the strip, and not just Vegas. I do seem to have more play at Indian casinos.... My thoughts:

    First we went from money to credits. It's easier to bet 3 credits than 75c, right? Banking credits allowed for more spins per minute.

    Ticket in / out sped up the process of getting money and out so you can play more. It took time to feed a bill or drop three coins. Now I can press MAX BET many times more per minute.

    The low wager video slot... Getting you to bet 20c-$3+ for 1c payback scales. 'nuff said.

    Poor VP pay tables and games designed to mask poor pay tables.

    The near-extinction of $5 (or less) blackjack and the casinos tinkering with the rules.

    Casinos no longer use cheap rooms/food/shows to draw you in, but now give you comps based on actual play. Even the table games use chips with RFID so they can more accurately track your play.

    As for the Wheel of Fortune, IGT sets the payback and pays the jackpots... I'd be willing to bet (pun intended) that all of the machines are set the same regardless of location.

    My reason for cutting back to almost nothing is that we had a child and I'd rather save the money for my child's future that blow it on a night of fun.

  35. Why would anyone with a brain voluntarily give their cash to the scumbag casinos anyway?

  36. Lenny, for some it's purely entertainment - just as some choose to go see a movie - I could say the same with some of the movies out there - why would anyone with a brain voluntarily buy a ticket to see what's being called a movie these days when they can sit home and watch REAL movies on TCM ( all for the price of a cable or satellite monthly subscription)

  37. I agree with most here. We moved out here right after 9/11 in 2001.
    With the few bucks we had we could get play time and actually walk out of a casino with a few more dollars then we brought in.

    Now over the last few years we cant make $100 go for 1 hour playing quarter and penny slots.

    Since most casinos are putting in the multi-line penny slots, the player now spends more and gets less. The multi-line machines are a huge win fall for casinos and they are weaning out the old one arm bandit single line machines because they are harder to find now.

    When a player cant get play time they stop playing....its that simple. If a player playing the lower denomination slots goes through $300 in 2 hours you know its bad. A few years back we took a budgeted $100 and could play most of the night and even in some cases was there long enough to have a breakfast and see the sun come up as we drove home. And thats with arriving at the casino at 8PM.

    Now we arrive at 8PM and we're lucky we can make it to midnight on 300.00 We all know you cant walk out a winner everytime and most know going in that its a slim chance on winning.....thats why they call it gambling. But its getting so we may as well hand them the money as we enter the doors then turn around and leave because thats what is happening. When your play time is so short lately, you dont even have enough time to order a drink and wait for the cocktail waitress to bring it to you because your machine runs dry.

    Once these casinos realize that its the locals that are keeping their doors open and those locals are sick of having their money ripped from their pockets in record time and stop coming, they'll be screaming bloodly murder. But they have no one but themselves to blame.

  38. Ofcourse one might start off by wondering why these people were ever playing slot machines in the first place. Only after solving that question need anyone move on to the question of whether machines have been: tightened a bit, loosened a bit or generally left alone.

    A slot machine, of ANY denomination, has a rather high house edge and slot machines take such a short time per "pull" that the house edge works over and over again, even if the player is being mentally teased with things dubbed bonus rounds.

    So if you want to conduct an audit of slots in a variety of casinos, go ahead. Trends do change but your Indian casinos will be the worst, then there will be the Strip casinos and then the local casinos... but the differences won't be all that much anyway. And any recent changes, if they exist, will be rather modest ones too.

    The house edge on ANY slot machine is quite high. You want your money to last longer in a casino? Don't play slots at all!!

  39. It's true slots are noticeably tighter. So tight, in fact, it's atonishing how quickly people lose their money without ANY kind of win or reward. I'll see $20 or $100 vanish into machines, like the new eBay ripoffs.

    The problem is that casino operators have cynically taken the fun out of gambling.

    You can't enjoy your $100 now for more than ten minutes.

    What I've always thought is so silly is the idea of jackpots, and the idea of slots paying out only very rarely large amounts.

    This doesn't put people in the seats! Smaller but more frequent payouts would keep people gambling all through the night, and keep them excited. They may have lost, but they'll think back, "I lost, but it seemed like I kept winning and had a real chance of winning, and wow, that machine was hot."

    People just want to see a 'win' every few spins, even if the win is small and resuts in a net loss.

    As is typical with management, these operations have NO ideas, NO creativity whatsoever.

    At some point, after a few of these local dumps shut down or go into bankruptcy, someone is going to come along with better ideas, better service and a less cynical approach.

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