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twitterStratosphere’s refusal to honor expired ticket gives sports books another black eye
Friday, May 16, 2008 | 2 a.m.
It has been an unwritten rule in Nevada sports betting for decades: A sports book will virtually always cash a winning ticket even if the bettor redeems it after its expiration date.
For one thing, it’s good customer relations, plain and simple.
For another, it’s the ethical thing to do. The bookmaker accepted a wager, and he lost. And an even older maxim states that a man who doesn’t pay his gambling debts is not much of a man at all.
Only the sleaziest of sports books would try to pull a fast one on a patron by refusing to cash a winning ticket shortly after it had expired.
Yet that’s what officials with the Stratosphere did to Michael Shackleford of Las Vegas.
Shackleford happens to be a professional gaming consultant, the author of a book on gambling strategy and an adjunct professor at UNLV. In case No. 2008-7136L before the state Gaming Control Board, however, he’s just “Petitioner,” a bettor with a beef. A legitimate beef.
No bizarre or extraordinary circumstances cloud Shackleford’s case. It’s not as if the guy was trying to cash a ticket from the 1971 World Series at a property that had changed hands four times through the years.
Rather, it’s a straightforward example of a casino taking a cheap shot at a customer.
At 7:58 p.m. on Sept. 20, Shackleford wagered $1,000 on Oklahoma State against Texas Tech in a Sept. 22 college football game. The bet was on the money line, meaning on Oklahoma State to win outright regardless of the point spread, at odds of plus-190.
Oklahoma State beat Texas Tech, 49-45, making the winning ticket worth $2,900 (the original $1,000 stake plus $1,900 in profit).
Because Shackleford does not go to the Stratosphere frequently, he waited until Jan. 26 to present the ticket for payment. This was 126 days after the game. The back of the betting slip reads, “Sports tickets are valid for 60 days after the event.”
At the vast majority of Nevada sports books throughout the history of legalized gambling in the state, there would not have been a problem. The ticket would have been honored. Shackleford himself has cashed expired tickets at a number of Las Vegas sports books with no hassles, as have many bettors.
But the Stratosphere sports book manager refused to pay, citing the expiration date of the ticket.
Shackleford filed a complaint with the Gaming Control Board, and the case remains unresolved as it makes its way through legal channels.
At a meeting May 8, the Gaming Control Board referred the case back to its hearing examiner, Richard DeGuise Jr., for further consideration.
“I plan to fight this until the day I die,” Shackleford told me.
The Stratosphere’s official statement on the matter, contained in documents from the Gaming Control Board, is stunning.
Patrick Rethore, the sports book manager, wrote in a prepared statement: “I informed (Shackleford) that the sports tickets are good for 60 days and his ticket was 126 days old and we would not pay him. I showed him the back of the ticket, which clearly states how long the tickets are good for. He asked for the phone number of Gaming and I gave it to him.”
I don’t know whether to laugh (in frustration) or cry (tears of rage).
Remember, this isn’t a remark uttered in a back room. This is a statement for the official record. The arrogance and the contempt for a paying customer of the casino are palpable.
If this is not a new low in the annals of sports books’ treatment of patrons, it’s close to it.
“I think if this gets voted on again (by the Gaming Control Board), it will probably go against me,” Shackleford said. “However, I’m not going to say that I’ll never get paid.
“Maybe I’ll win at some other level. Maybe they’ll just tire of me, I don’t know. I think I will get paid eventually, but it may not be at this point.”
Presumably, if it relies on the letter of the law, the Gaming Control Board might well decide in favor of the casino.
But regardless of the outcome, the Stratosphere bosses should be ashamed of their actions. This episode gives another black eye to Nevada’s legal sports betting scene, which in terms of black eyes lately seems to resemble Floyd Patterson at the end of his second fight with Muhammad Ali.
In an odd wrinkle to the case, it was revealed in an April 2 hearing by the Gaming Control Board that the Stratosphere’s redemption period for sports tickets is actually 120 days, not 60 days. The casino continued to issue tickets with the erroneous 60-day deadline printed on them because “the property has several rolls of ticket stock material on hand, (and) it was not cost effective to reprint new wagering tickets,” according to the board.
“Who knows how many players have come up with a ticket that is past 60 days but before 120 days and they just toss it?” Shackleford said. “I shudder at the value of all those tickets.
“I think passing out tickets that say 60 days when the real policy is 120 is a greater sin than not honoring my one ticket.”
I’m not so sure. In the spectrum of sports book sins, I categorize both as mortal rather than venial.
Discussion: 18 comments so far…
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All gamblers should avoid the Stratosphere. Place a total ban on these greedy people and their casino.
It wont be long before the ticket in ticket out slips will expire in a short period as well thats why they went to them, you see the quarter could be spent any where the ticket can not.
this is also why this resort is not one i ever play at you should not walk away from this place you should run!!!!!
It reminds me of the movie vegas vacation with the casinos that have rock, paper, scissors tables and guess which hand its in.
Casinokid
Everyone always embraces a rule until it falls against them. Caveat emptor...if I had $1900 coming to me, I would have surely redeemed it or would have atleast called the casino and had them mail me a check.
There is no good reason to have an expiration of less than a year. If anything a casino profits from a bettor that is slow to redeem a winner. What about tourists who might not return every 4 mos.?
Casinos have been very successful, but tend to be arrogant. They should remember that the customer is KING, especially during economic downturn. This is short-sighted, petty and just plain STUPID.
Perhaps there should be a law that unclaimed winnings become state property after one year, just as some states treat unused gift cards! Lets get the teachers union behind this.!
The casino admits that what is printed on their tickets now is not in fact their policy but they are trying to impose what is printed on the winning ticket even though no one else in town does such a thing and the casino suffers not the slightest loss or inconvenience by honoring a late-submitted ticket.
Its simply a new way for the casino to 'wet its beak' rather than honor its commitments.
This is an odd point to argue. If you or I had wagered $1000 on a game and won it, would you not promptly go and cash that ticket? I believe that's the real lapse in logic here. Why would you wait four months to cash a winning $3000 ticket? Makes no sense at all. Win it, cash it. At no point does waiting 4 months need to enter the equation. I take the Stratosphere's side here, even though the place is a dump.
I intended to dissect this ridiculous article (a story about a dispute, with no effort made to get a comment from one of the two sides involved???), but these comments are even more ridiculous.
Buzzbomb, you suggest that "There is no good reason to have an expiration of less than a year." First, no matter how long you make the deadline, someone is always going to show up a day or two later, and claim to be treated unfairly, so in that regard, 365 days is no better than 60. More importantly, since I have worked in a sports book, I disagree for practical reasons. There are several good reasons that you may not have considered.
One, for example, is the way Lost Ticket claims are handled. A player loses his ticket, and wants to know what can be done. All we can do is wait to see if someone tries to cash it. If the ticket isn't redeemed by the expiration, we can then pay the claimant. Since Lost Ticket claims outnumber Expired Ticket claims by at least 100 to 1, the rules should be constructed to help the most people. Making those 100 people wait a year does not seem to me to be the better way to handle things. And before you suggest that they shouldn't have lost their ticket, it is just as true that the Expired Tickets claimants "shoulda" done a better job protecting themselves, as well.
I haven't even mentioned technical reasons, such as the lack of computer memory in the antiquated bet-taking systems (it looks like computers from ancient times back there! Ever seen a printer that's the size of a refrigerator?), or the microscopic chance that those flimsy paper tickets should be expected to last a year.
FleaStiff, the casino suffers a great inconvenience when an expired ticket is presented. All bets, and results, are no longer in the antique computer system. The bookmaker has to go look up the score to the game, and see if the ticket is actually a winner. Doing it this way makes it easier for a scam artist to change "Kansas +190" to "Kansas St +190" or "Kansas City +190". These alterations wouldn't fool the computer (which knows exactly what team was bet on ticket number 1483DA352FE7), but might well fool a person who is reading text.
In conclusion, I just want to add that Mr Shackleford tells us that he has redeemed expired tickets "a number of times" at different casinos. He knows the rules and procedures, and consciously decides to not follow them. He may or may not be aware of the extra work he creates for the sports book staff by doing things his way, but at least one sports book manager has put his foot down to this nonsense. This manager may have even explained his reasons to us readers, if only the reporter had thought to call and ask him about the dispute (I still can't believe a newspaper would run a one-sided piece like this).
As one sports book manager I know told me recently when we discussed this story, "I applaud the Stratosphere sports book."
The sportsbook employee's comments above show just how far down into typical casino sleaze sportsbook people have slipped. There is no reason a sports ticket should "expire" any sooner than any other debt in Nevada. And when it "expire" why does it turn into a LOSER, rather then the patron getting back at least his bet? The casinos are fortunate in the short-term to have a captive government which writes laws and regulations to benefit the industry, to the detriment of patrons. But in the long run, to continue to screw people, whether they be well-respected locals like Mr. Shackleford, or the stupidest chump tourist, does not serve Nevada well.
http://www.thebeargrowls.com/?p=111
As I have said before, Nevada does not need another cheating scandal or another abuse-of-patrons scandal in its casinos. There have been far too many already, with no meaningful action ever taken against the wrongdoers. Nevada is competing with many other gaming and vacation destinations. The other states take casino cheating and other wrongdoing seriously. Nevada needs to start doing the same, before it is too late. Once we get a national or worldwide reputation for not having legitimate, effective government oversight of casinos, many of the tourists — the lifeblood of our economy — will stop taking the risk of visiting Nevada.
http://www.thebeargrowls.com/?p=32
Let’s start with the core issue here. Michael Shackleford wanted an employee of the Stratosphere to break the written rules of the sports book which could have resulted in this employee being terminated from his job. After all of this one sided, negative publicity that Michael Shackleford is having his buddies generate, that is probably still going to happen. Some innocent worker is now forced to put up with all of this crap, just because a web blogger has an issue with the casino industry. That is the bottom line, plain and simple. I know that when I took my position with the company that I work for, I had to agree to abide by all of the rules of the company whether I agreed with them or not.
This is the problem with today’s society and why the rest of the world hates the US. Michael Shackleford is being very arrogant thinking that the rules of society are for everyone but him. He is probably the guy at the grocery store that is in the 10 items of less line with a basket full of groceries or the guy that tailgates you when you are already going 5 miles over the speed limit and is yelling at you because you are blocking his way with you slow rate of speed because he is the only one that matters.
He stated that he was aware of the 60 day time period that this ticket was valid, but in his arrogance stated by his actions, this rule only applies to the rest of the population, not to him. He should get his ticket cashed whenever he wants because he is the great and powerful, The Wizard of Odds!
No doubt a gambler, UNLV professor and web blogger such as Shackleford knows the rules of the gaming control board well. He is also quite connected in the gambling community. This is why when he has an axe to grind with the casino industry (he seems to have quite a few axes according to his blog), he and his buddies like Jeff Haney, Anthony Curtis and LV Bear (can’t seem to find his real name), who also has a blog on the internet, takes it out on the sports book manager that is just trying to make a living and follow the rules set by the company that he works for.
One thing the Sun publishers might want to ask is did anyone bother to get the facts from the Stratosphere, the Gaming Control Board or Mr. Rethore? I for one would like to hear that side of the story. Maybe we may see the true scumbag (his words from his blog, not mine) here.
I really hope you are happy with causing such turmoil and a possible termination for this employee, you could have just mailed in the ticket if you couldn’t get to the Stratosphere. They would have sent you a check.
i recently cashed a 23 month old $500 ticket at orleans that was originally a barbery coast ticket without any problem. they were very nice about it
BobbyC - "I intended to dissect this ridiculous article (a story about a dispute, with no effort made to get a comment from one of the two sides involved???..."
Haney - "The Stratosphere’s official statement on the matter, contained in documents from the Gaming Control Board, is stunning.
Patrick Rethore, the sports book manager, wrote in a prepared statement..."
So Haney is quoting from NGCB documents.
Perhaps you feel an additonal interview is needed with both sides, but Haney's use of official documents is professional.
BobbyC - "As one sports book manager I know told me recently when we discussed this story, 'I applaud the Stratosphere sports book.' "
Both BobbyC and the person he quotes sound like the typical casino employee lackey.
What exactly is being applauded here? The fact that the Stratosphere is stiffing a sportsbook customer who beat them for a bet but missed the arbitrary (and incorrectly printed on the ticket) expiration date?
That is applause worthy?
One more casino employee with contempt for casino customers, especially those who win, speaking to another.
Repulsive.
victoriainlv - "Let’s start with the core issue here. Michael Shackleford wanted an employee of the Stratosphere to break the written rules of the sports book which could have resulted in this employee being terminated from his job...
[Shackleford and friends] takes it out on the sports book manager that is just trying to make a living and follow the rules set by the company that he works for."
Since you provide no evidence of any sort that the book manager coould have lost his job if he'd honored the ticket, I have to conclude that you've invented this to attempt to justify Rethore's action.
I assume that in truth you have no idea what the consequences would've been with Rethore's employers.
If his employers would've fired him for honoring the ticket, then why do you state several times that he is likely to lose his job for NOT honoring the ticket?
As you would know if you'd read Haney's article, it is a common practice to honor expired tickets at mostbooks in Nevada.
Have all of the book managers who approved the expired tickets for payment lost their job?
victoriainlv - "One thing the Sun publishers might want to ask is did anyone bother to get the facts from the Stratosphere, the Gaming Control Board or Mr. Rethore? "
Try reading the article before posting.
Haney quotes from NGCB documents.
If these do not contain the facts, then you have an issue with the NGCB, not the Sun nor with Haney's excellent article.
Samo,
I am glad that Shackleford has gotten yet another one of his friends (or maybe even himself under a different name) to trash someone with a different opinion than his.
No, I do not have any ‘Proof’ as to what disciplinary action, if any was or will be taken against any employee since these matters are strictly confidential. However, it is pretty safe to say that IF Mr. Rethore did break the rule in the first place and cashed this ticket, there COULD have been ramifications regarding his employment just as for any employee that disregarded the rules. Now that Shackleford has caused such a stink in the press and with the Gaming Control Board, Mr. Rethore COULD be reprimanded, no one will know. I never said that he in fact was, but this happens all the time, employee follows the rules and then when a patron does not like the answer he causes problems, then the squeaky wheel gets the oil to make him shut up!
As to other sports books honoring expired tickets, I did read this article and Haney talks about the unwritten rule in the sports books. I guess YOU didn’t read the original article from Shackleford’s cohort on the Bear Growls. Here he said that he had this same issue at several sports books, and threw out names of those sports books. It can’t be both ways. Besides, the Gaming Control Board requires that the rules be written, which it is in every sports books house rules posted on the wall and that this expiration date is a minimum of 30 days. I think the WRITTEN rule over rules the UN-WRITTEN rule any day.
You said that Haney is quoting from NGCB documents. Maybe it is you that needs to read this article again because I found only 1 reference to what Mr. Rethore said in a ‘Prepared statement’. How is that getting the whole story? I do not see anywhere in this article where Mr. Rethore was directly asked for his comments to what Mr. Shackleford was spewing. This is a one sided story from a man, or should I say baby, that didn’t get his own way and is now throwing a temper tantrum like a 3 year old child.
It seems that every time someone posts a different spin or looks at this issue in a different, more positive light than Shackleford, a very angry person posts a comment shredding and dissecting each word said. You have every right to be negative in everything you do and say, but other people have every right to see it from the other side of the counter, from the employee’s point of view servicing an arrogant, disruptive, foul mouthed customer.
Because of all of the crap and lies that are being thrown by Shackleford, the Stratosphere will probably pay him just to shut him up and stop all of this drama. What an arrogant SOB!
Bobby C; Why should customers give a **** about the casinos problems?
Mr. Shackleford is an idiot. Purposely on numerous occasions and at numerous sports books he has brought in expired tickets and expected to get paid. Do his students who turn in assignments late despite being given a deadline get full credit? He probably drives with out of state tags to save on his taxes, returns his movies late to Blockbuster and doesn't expect to get late fees (despite costing Blockbuster revenue) and follows the Bill Clinton definition of "Sexual Relations". Anybody mention the fact that he knew the rules before purchasing the ticket and perhaps if he felt he couldn’t return within the prescribed time frame he had the option of going to anyone of the other million or so Sportsbooks? No… this might place some of the responsibility on Mr. Shackleford. Bet he is a Democrat.
Both sides can be argued. but what it boils down to is treating customers RIGHT.
It's starts at the top, and if the "bosses" only care about the hold, this transpires down to the rest of the employees. I totally agree with some of the comments made about the contempt the employees show for customers. What the top management should show the employees is that they only care about the customer, and the profit and the rest will follow. There should be zero tolerance for a rude and contempt filled employee.
Why management talks about the win is beyond me as the employees hearing it have no contol over a win or loss. They only control making the customer feel good and wanting to gamble at their site. Some of the sports books I've been to here in Las Vegas need a complete flush. PERIOD
This is a non-opinionated view...I think. You can all tell me otherwise :)
The intent of the ticket casher (did they know they rule/did they not?) can be rendered inmaterial. Put the rightousness on both sides of the arguement away for a minute.
Both parties acted in a proper legal manner. The ticket holder can try to redeem, the casino can try to invalidate the ticket based on their own rules. The question is: should the ticket holder be able to challenge it, and win?
Under UCC (Uniform Commercial Code), printing rules on the back of something that is hard to read, like a ticket, does not a contract make. The commonly used example is the "liability" waiver on the back of parking slips at parking garages that supposedly "waives" all of the garage liability in the event of damage or theft of your vehicle. Not so. In most states, including I believe Nevada, the garage is liable for the theft of your car, as they are a "bailor" of your vehicle. The only way the garage can waive their laibility is by *very* large signage, or expressly notifying the owner of the vehicle of the liability waiver, and gaining their written agreement.
This is an overly simplified example, but if we applied the same situation to the sports bettor's ticket, whould the date restriction on the ticket apply? Was there lots of signage? No, I doubt it. Do you sign an agreement when you post a bet? Heck no.
Well, what's the difference between a parking lot ticket and a casino ticket? The difference in this situation is that we are talking about a casino, unlike any other form of businss. Casinos have unique regulations applied to them, and while I find it strange, they are apparently not impacted by the UCC. The part where the casino makes their mistake, is in now following their own rules. If the Stratosphere can be shown to knowingly ignore their own policy on even a regular basis, the policy should be considered invalid. The failure to replace old ticket stock provides evidence that they do not follow their own policy, and there are probably tickets out there that the casino has cashed past their expiration date. (think high roller)