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Have they loosened the slots up so we can enjoy our gambling jaunts again?

Tuesday, Dec. 30, 2008 | 2 a.m.

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We vowed to never return to Las Vegas because the powers that be tightened up the slots so bad that it was no longer fun.

My question is: Have they loosened the slots up so we can enjoy our gambling jaunts again?

•••

Each casino uses different tactics to turn a profit, so it’s impossible to draw one conclusion about all slot machines in Southern Nevada. But if you’re painting the situation with a broad brush, Anthony Curtis, publisher of the Las Vegas Advisor newsletter, says there’s a convincing case to be made that slots are tighter than they were before the economic downturn.

Curtis cites three factors.

The first is that video poker payouts — which unlike slot payouts can be deciphered without insider information — are down and that likely means the same is happening with slot machines.

“You can look at a slot machine and without inside information you can’t say what it’s paying, but you can with video poker ... and we absolutely have witnessed a tightening of video poker payouts,” he said.

Publicly reported statistics are Curtis’ second indicator.

Gaming Control Board figures show slot payouts declining in recent years. (It bears noting, however, that the numbers also reflect a move to more penny slot machines, which tend to be tighter.)

The third factor Curtis cites is the widespread perception among gamblers that slots have tightened. Though the experience of an individual gambler isn’t an indication of much of anything, when thousands of gamblers report their experiences a meaningful trend can take shape, Curtis said.

About 2,300 people responded to a recent Las Vegas Advisor survey and 61 percent said they were convinced slots are tighter.

“If you harness the opinions of all the people you can get a perception that you can put some credence in,” he said.

Questions for Mr. Sun should be sent to page8@lasvegassun.com.

Discussion: 23 comments so far…

By BorisR

12/30/08 at 3:10 a.m.

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I think that the Slots and Videopoker machines at the Strip properties are generally much tighter than at the locals' casinos. Thats no big news, of course. However, even at the locals' joints I could find the very same type of videopoker machines with extremely different paytables. I wonder if the "average gambler" takes such paytables into consideration before sitting down...Another point: The progressives and the Optimum Play Machines. Many casinos have them, but still, not all of those machines are busy at all times, although these are clearly the best machines you can find. Does it take a traveller from Switzerland to see that?
By bob_cirelli

12/30/08 at 6:05 a.m.

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Point programs are another ripoff. One locals casino states video reels and reels $1 in = 3 points, Video poker $1 in = 2 points. The redemption value? 1200 points = $1. That means to get one dollar back, you need to put $400 in on reels, $600 in on VP. That's supposed to be an incentive? I imagine other casinos are even stingier.
By kenoman1956

12/30/08 at 10:03 a.m.

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have they got tighter? You Betcha. And the main reason why penny machines are popular, is because you can't afford staying on larger denomations.So folks like me that want to at least sit down and have 1 coffee in front of a machine,has to resort to pennies. Pure greed has set in to Las vegas Casino's. And this trend has been here for at least the last 2-3 yrs, and getting worse.Just look at the new properties that are being put on hold.Could it be that more & more folks are catching on? My answer is yes,and its a shame that what used to be the mecca giant of the world of gambling,in Vegas,has turned folks to play at their locals casino's in their own states,because they can no longer afford to play and stay. I am still waiting for one of these casinos to figure this out, as well as the gaming boards. There is a strong need to ensure Vegas will survive, by slowing down the building of new casinos alittle, and setting some of that money back to the folks who put it in. And from the looks of our economy, it just might be too late.
By davidwayneosedach

12/30/08 at 1:36 p.m.

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The casinos are only doing what they need to do to survive another year. If the economy gets much worse they too will face foreclosure.
By lvsundog

12/31/08 at 4:24 a.m.

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davidwayneosedach says: "The casinos are only doing what they need to do to survive another year. If the economy gets much worse they too will face foreclosure."

That seems to be saying that the only way for casinos to survive is to drive customers away. That is becoming typical for these times, but casinos have always made money. Tightening the odds is just giving in to greed, and much to the detriment of both the customers and the casinos.

Thankfully, customers are figuring this out. When will the casinos figure it out?
By terjen

12/31/08 at 7:06 a.m.

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This "chnage" is not about profits. The change from gambling to playing; the change from a chance to win to only an opportunity to play has only served to drive gamblers away. The public gets it, the industry does not. You can not expect people to play where there is no winning. As bottom line casino operators focus on charging an hourly rate for playing their video game, first the old time gamblers left, followed by the frustrated "I Never win any more" player, and now the masses have caught on and are just not playing. Can the profit driven corporations change enough to bring back real gambling? Follow the history of gambling, when Vegas never suffered in a recession, jobs were not lost, gambling continued to circulate the cash, people were more important than profits. To the casino's. just stop it, shut the computer off and get back to work, employ people not systems, pay your people, bring back gambling. If the casino's choose to maintain the current pay for play standard, they need one more program, please teach the computer to shut the lights out.
By xfilespokerDOTcom

12/31/08 at 9:17 a.m.

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Wow! I'm shocked it took people this long to SEE how they changed slots..

They used to be SLOTS OF FUN! You took a few hundred (1 or 2) and you had so much fun on machines you could not leave them to pee..

That was back in the 90's - (I can't even imagine how good it was prior to then)

Knickles became pennies (genious and "greed" too)

But the real change was in the small (or large to profit) changes they made to payouts.. Hitting "Tripple bars" used to mean another hour of playing time.. Three RED 7's forget it! YOU WON MONEY!

Now - You can WIN! (hear bells and music) and get this - LOSE ! Put three coins in and WIN "2" - THAT IS A LOSS PEOPLE! Cherries - "1" of em - way back when was still a WIN!

When they started TWEAKING the payouts - THey started BUILDING even bigger mouse traps. They sure are pretty! But get this - No, KNOW THIS! Anyone in there playing a lot of slots are nothing more than MOTHS stuck on the back porch light. "Stroke em and CHOKE em.." my slot host used to say - Give me a SLOT player for MANY days .. and he said.. "the casinos OWN them..."

Look back the cabs window the next time your leaving VEGAS.. They did not tear down all the old ones - and build the new MONSTERS on the strip on "WINNERS" They built them with MILLIONS of cashed paychecks! They built them on L O S E R S!

It's the basic - MOUSE TRAP.. Just all shiney and stuff..

I say - bring back the OLD SCHOOL -
Let players PLAY! Take their money - sure - But let them have 40 hours of insane fun before you TAKE IT ALL...

Then - Give them a STEAK mean - fill their belly for the long ride home.

Go back to the BENNY BINNION basics..

They will come back!
By Laker

12/31/08 at 9:25 a.m.

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While we are not "whales" when it comes to gambling, we usually have about a thou to play on the slots during a three-day trip, plus other money for shows, etc. Until a couple years ago, we could win a few nice pots, but lately, zilch. Same goes for others in our parties. Nothing scientific about our system ... just pockets going empty quicker than a decade ago. Our local casinos off us about chance to win, and we don't have to pay $1,000 bucks for transportation halfway across the country and rooms. That's why we're staying home ... like many others.
By tvegas

12/31/08 at 9:42 a.m.

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All the casinos are now managed by MBA's (Managed By A**holes) running computer programs..that will run them into Chapter 11.
By pbatour

12/31/08 at 12:15 p.m.

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The Indian Casino's in California are moving towards "Las Vegas stlye gaming." As this happens, it will take away from the casinos in Nevada. I miss the Las Vegas of 20 years ago, it was a lot better gamble and just a great place to have fun. I agreee with the last poster, nowdays, I am staying home in favor of my local casino in Calif. Factor in transportation, room and food, it's a better gamble then Vegas.
By Matois

12/31/08 at 12:57 p.m.

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Last night was the first time in 7 years that I left the El Cortez in the loss column. I visit there often, despite some folks calling it a dive (since the remodel, it's rather nice for a mid-range property). I have always been able to have fun while breaking even, make a few dollars, or about every 5-6 trips hit a nice jackpot. Not so this time. I'm going to give them another try over the weekend. If the poker machines are as tight as they were last night, my business will be going elsewhere. That's a tough choice because they treat me fantastically well with generous comps, they know me by name, and I get great service from long time employees who remember me even after a long absence.
By DonKeyPunCh

12/31/08 at 4:51 p.m.

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No question,
slots are significantly tighter. Las Vegas
will suffer if they don't correct the issue.
Have you noticed the lights on the machines are
hardly ever lit for hand pays? Local casinos or strip casinos are all the same. Its greed, ngc
allowed for tighter payouts after 9/11 and never
changed their decision, during the crazy when everyone was spending like drunk sailors they thought, hey this works good. Well now people
are paying more attention for sure, It seems
Las Vegas is trying to present itself as a luxury
resort destination versus a place to come and gamble for a weekend. If gambling is important here, they are going to have to re-tool the machines because the service is'nt going to carry them any more.
By Indianadave

12/31/08 at 5:20 p.m.

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The wife and I are heading out to our favorite city(Vegas, where else) in just four days. Your fair city is a magnet- good memories, good times, excitement, great people, superb food, palatial architecture and lodging, stupendous weather and sunny all the time. A vacation retreat without equal anywhere on the globe. We got an offer we couldn't refuse from Mr. Wynn and will finally be able to sample from the cask of better vintage. Usually we bunk at the more affordable joints like Hampton Inns or Stations.
Unabashed, dedicated, fanatical slot players, we of late have been turned off by the tightening of the payback spigot by the casino bosses countrywide. Lately, here in Indiana we've seen some improvement in payback and comps at the local properties. Nothing like a good old depression to knock folks back to reality!
At any rate, hopefully the power people in America will wise up and go back to providing service and value to consumers and customers. I hate feeding stingy slots and paying the A/C repairman $100hr. The proverbial "I got screwed and didn't even get a kiss" situation. Viva, Las Vegas!
By localgeezer

12/31/08 at 6:03 p.m.

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I also made a trip to the El Cortez after a 3 year absence. "Matois" hit it right on the head. The details would be too much for this format. It got to the point where one or two pair on DDB was a miracle. Deuces Wild was one big joke.

The only problem is this is happening at all of the local casinos. Video Poker came out around 1978 and I've been playing since then. I play extremly long sessions 2-3 days a week at Local Casinos only. No More! The last few years have been devastating.

I clearly see a pattern that defies the mathematical odds of a so-called "random shuffle" of a deck of 52 cards. Again, it would be too much to explain all my observations on this post. I will attempt a short version if I'm allowed enough space.

It's called the "Same Rank Anomaly" (SRA). This phrase was dubbed by a VP expert I used to write articles for. It works like this.

Keep track of all your discards. You will soon notice how often the same value card returns with a different suit. For example, discard a 6c and see how often a 6 of another suit will appear. I'm only using the 6 as an example, it happens on any valued card. The same with a 2 or 3 discard hand. This time make note how many times your returned cards are reversed. Discard a 6-8 and you may be surprised to receive an 8-6. Then there are time when just one of the cards will come back in the opposite position with a stranger such as 6-J. I've had many hands with 3 discards with the returned cards being the same with different suits. Normally it will be 1 or 2 cards.

I have many hours I could discuss regarding VP and it's downfall since 1978. The above is just ONE of my negative observations. Believe me, it gets worse and I don't see it getting any better.

In a nutshell: YES! All the slots and VP have been tightened drastically (amongst other manipulations). Believe that with all you heart. The days of playing to have a good time, even with the expectations of losing a few dollars, are long gone.
By durazzo

12/31/08 at 8:57 p.m.

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Note that the indian casinos in California like Pechanga and Pala have tightened up significantly the last few years. I live a short drive away and began playing locally from day 1 of their respective openings (and that includes Harrah's Rincon located in Northern San Diego County). My experience playng slots in Vegas the last three years or so has actually been more positive and enjoyable. I've won more (but have seldom gone home in the black) played longer, and savored the sights and sounds only Vegas can produce. Now that isn't saying Vegas slots are better than ten years ago but too many people think indian casinos offer a better pay out and overall experience, but that just isn't so.
My problem with Vegas is the overwhelming and heavy handed corporate mentality that now controls this town and the greed its brought.
The Strip palaces were built on the backs of all gamblers but these corporations aren't giving enough back to its gamblers. Food, shows, clubs, and the like are all fine and dandy but its gambling that built Sin City, no matter what Mr. Wynn may say in front of a camera. Indian casinos are merely benefiting from the frustration of many folks who miss the old connection with the "gambling friendly" Vegas of old, when you came to town to gamble and not gawk at the latest new thing.
By micmac99

12/31/08 at 9:17 p.m.

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I will be going to LV for a weekend later in January (I was there in November, and I'm a former resident, but did not gamble much during four months living there). I live in Phoenix now and often visit the tribal casinos here, and their slots have gotten very, very tight. I did OK but not excellently at a couple of the locals casinos during my last trip, and will not gamble on the Strip at all. I do not have thousands to spend, only a couple of hundred, and if I can leave with my couple of hundred, my weekend will be a success.
People like to actually win something when they play the slots, and not have to wait 2 hours sitting at a machine to do so. If a machine doesn't have a trend of "hitting" after about 10-15 spins I'm looking for another bank of machines, but if all the machines are tight, what's the point??? That's just a waste of time and money, which is why I'm going to go less and less to the tribal casinos and focus on locals casinos in Vegas 2-4 times a year ($30 on Greyhound and a 5-hour drive through the hills and over Hoover Dam...) The tribal casinos in Phoenix are on a serious expansion program, building multi-story hotel towers closer to the freeways and public bus lines, and I guess they have to pay for that somehow...also, I understand a lot of LV executive talent is hired to run these places. Is that a good thing???
By BorisR

1/1/09 at 7:25 a.m.

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The idea of a casino is to make money. Not to lose money. That's the basic concept. It's definetely true that the full pay machines are getting rare and are hard to find. Penny slots are not the loosest kind of machines, either. As a Vegas tourist from overseas, however, I see so many people sitting on very tight videopoker machines, never taking the paytables into consideration. For instance, I was at the Palace Station the other day when they had a huge Jumbo Jackpot progressive, just before they changed the rule. I was playing on a Optimum Play machine and hit 4 aces about 5times that night, within 2 hours. Another player, sitting on a different bank, noticed that and we came into chatting. I asked her why she's not playing on the Optimum Play bank. Her answer was that she never wins on these machines and prefers this 5-8 machine she was playing and said it's the only machine she's playing. Well, as long as people are so supersticuous and don't respect the law of probability, then there's no way for them to avoid the rollercoaster losing ride.
By pbatour

1/1/09 at 7:12 p.m.

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True enough BorisR, "The idea of a casino is to make money." However, if you loosen up the slots, all that really happens is that folks end-up playing longer, in fact most will put all the money back into the slots. The same thing holds true for a lot of the games in Las Vegas. Looser odds and looser solts = more playing time, happy customers and bigger profits NOT casino's losing money. That's what the computer programs fail to factor in. I could increase any casino's take by 10% if they would listen, BUT first you have to have a bunch of degrees before they will listen to you. I know a few old cardroom manangers/owners in California with 9th grade educations and their casino's are booming. Why? Beacuse they know it's a people business not a computer-program-bean counting business.
By BorisR

1/2/09 at 6:54 a.m.

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pbatour, thanks for your additional comments. Matter-of-factly, looser slots means longerplay, not winning. The casinos win, regardless. It just takes longer for them to win our money. The problem is that if a slotmachine is set as too tight (with a too brutal percentage hold), nobody will play at it, so the casino is not making any money at all. I am sure the casinos are carefully watching how much casino floor remains empty during the day and what might be the reason for it. Sometimes it's because of the noise coming from the club adjacent, or from the smell of the snack bar, or perhaps it's because it's too windy, or could it be the tightness of the slots? On the other hand, let's go to the extreme: If a casino is offering too many promotioins, such as the East Side Cannery, on Grand Opening. It's 20 or 25 Dollar Free Play for new members attracted so many players signing up, playing through the free play and then cashing out. The casino lost Thousands of Dollars and then the customers walked again. As a result they had to cancel this promo and cut it down. There are tons of ideas the casinos are trying out , and there will be always the smart gamblers taking advantage of it, and the suckers will maybe even overlook such bargains. On the other hand, if there's no money around for gambling, the players don't gamble, no matter how loose or how tight the machines are. Or they simply gamble less as they have less to lose. I think right now the situation is extremely difficult in Las Vegas because there are sooooo many casinos (too many to fit the demand?) for not enough gamblers. Once the economy gets better, we will see the turnaround. I am also sure that the casinos will have to loosen up the videopoker machines again and bring up more fullpay classics in order to generate more business. It's only a matter of time and goes along with cutting down the room rates. More difficult to answer is the question how long the economy keeps suffering and home prices keep tumbling. Everybody puts big hope in Superstar Obama and his plans. Let's keep our fingers x-ed :)
By azsk8fan

1/5/09 at 11:23 a.m.

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Looser slots? R U kidding me? Don't hold your breath!
By azsk8fan

1/5/09 at 11:43 a.m.

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Matois, if you've managed to walk away either breaking even or slight winner every time but one in the past 7 yrs. I wouldn't be so eager to switch casino's because of your recent bad luck - ALL the casino's are tightening up so I would say given your 7 yr run of good playing at El Cortez you might want to rethink your position and just stick with them - you're gonna lose wherever you go but at least with the El Cortez, in your own words, you're treated good, employees recognize you etc. so if you're not seriously thinking about just giving it up completely I'd stay put. After all their machines were kind to you for 7 years so that should count for some degree of loyalty.
By venchief

1/6/09 at 4:02 p.m.

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Real easy.No sound of winning inside of casino walk away and go to the next casino.The casino must turn up the volume on loud on the slots machine.
By fermat

1/9/09 at 4:15 p.m.

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Give up on machines which can be programmed to take your money more rapidly, and go to the sports book where, hopefully, except for college basketball and NBA refs, the outcome is out of the Casino's hands. Pro football is more lucrative than video poker, with proper consideration of team chemistry and temperament. The Ravens, Eagles and Cardinals all have points coming with dominant defenses. It may not last for three hours of cranking a slot, but it is always interesting to see if Seattle can score a last second touchdown to cover 7 1/2 vs. the Steelers. Perhaps when no one plays the tight slots, the casinos will get the message.