Poll: Nevada voters blame GOP for bailouts

By thebs: 9/21/08 at 11:20 p.m.; Suggest removal

Of course they blame the Republicans.

Republicans controlled the House and Senate, and the appropriate oversight committees for over a decade. For years, John McCain and the Republicans in the House and Senate deregulated their hearts out.

When the warning flags went up, in 2001 when Greenspan gave a speech warning about mortgage-backed securities and the lack of oversight leading to a mortgage meltdown, what did the Republicans do? Nothing.

And now, as the rabid neocons on AM radio slander Obama as a socialist, you have George W Bush and his Republican croneys overseeing the largest nationalization of an industry in American history.

And now they want to write Wall Street a blank check to fix this! Boehner went on This Week and was decrying the Democrats' call for oversight, transparency and legislation which will shine the light on the previous seven years of mortgage-backed securities and fraud.

Seems the Republicans don't want us shining flashlights in the closets of Wall Street.

Could it have anything to do with McCain's Lobbyist Squad? Charlie Black, who lobbied for Freddie Mac for a decade? Who lobbied against oversight and regulations?

As I've said before, voters aren't stupid, and this poll, placing the responsibility for the bailout squarely at the feet of Republican malfeasance, proves my contention.

By jfnance32: 9/21/08 at 11:48 p.m.; Suggest removal

I guess they have not heard that the Democrats have been running the Do-Nothing Congress and the Do-Nothing Senate for the last two years.

I guess they have not heard that Bill Clinton signed the last major de-regulation banking bill.

I guess they have not heard that Bill Clinton pushed really hard for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go more into the sub-prime market to get more minorities into houses.

I guess they have not heard the Obama's campaign relied on economic advice from one of the ex-CEO's crooks that cooked the books of Fannie Mae and ran it the ground while earning millions in bonuses.

I guess they have not heard that Obama put in-charge of his VP selection committee another crooked ex-CEO of Fannie Mae.

I guess they have not heard that Obama is number two of list of getting cash from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae even though he has only been in DC for 3 years.

By peterclarke: 9/22/08 at 5:47 a.m.; Suggest removal

Will the media ask Obama "what fundamentals of the economy are broken"? How is Obama going to fix an economy if he believes that the Fundamentals of the American economy are broken?

When the fundamentals of an economy are broken, then there is NO Economy(Economics 101). Obama has shown he knows absolutely nothing about a countries economy.

These economic policies that Obama says are broken, are the economic policies signed into law in 1999 by the Democrat, Bill Clinton with his signing of the Financial Services Modernization Act, which removed tough regulations and restrictions governing the economy? Keep smiling".

By peterclarke: 9/22/08 at 5:52 a.m.; Suggest removal

Lets keep the facts correct, Junior Senator, Barack Hussein Obama.

You point out that former Senator Phil Gramm, was chief sponsor of the law which repealed the Glass-Steagall Act.

This is an outright lie, as it was a bipartisan conference committee, supported by Democrats and Republicans and signed into law by Bill Clinton.

Keep smiling

By Gordon: 9/22/08 at 7:12 a.m.; Suggest removal

The legislation you speak of PeterClarke, (1999 Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach... ) has nothing to do with today's financial crisis. I admit many economists (republican)argue otherwise. But I have yet to see an example of today's problems married to the legislation. The law allowed banks to merge and sell a basket of financial products (Checking/Savings, Insurance, Brokerage, and others) within the same company. This was done for America's financial industry to stay competitive with the rest of the industrialized world which already allowed this. Also the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act desperately needed to be modernized due to modern banking (electronic trading, online transactions, and global transactions). Sean Hannity started this rumor pointing to the 1999 legislation, I'm amused at how many bought into his lies. The neocons are only good at repeating what their Idols tell them, when it comes to researching on their own they are clueless.

The legislation that deregulated banking 'rules' was the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000. This is the legislation that included the 'Enron Loophole' and banned regulation of credit default swaps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_F... .
Being that credit default swaps are at the heart of our current financial meltdown, this is the legislation that needs to be repealed.

Read the story of how the republican senator Phil Gramm (also McCains economic advisor) inserted the legislation, as an amendment, into a 384 billion omnibus spending bill here http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/...

Democrats have made several attempts to repeal this legislation, but were blocked by Republican control of congress until 2006. Since 2007 Bush has vetoed attempts at repealing this law.

By Gordon: 9/22/08 at 7:24 a.m.; Suggest removal

McCain also wants to deregulate health insurance, just like he helped deregulate banking.

John McCain: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

Read McCains own words in an article he wrote for contigencies here http://www.contingencies.org/septoct08/m...

By cignetti: 9/22/08 at 7:30 a.m.; Suggest removal

Checkout Shumer, Rangle, Frank on this one and what they defended on Fannie and Fredie back in the 1990s. Apparently stupidos do not do homework. Last I looked they had a D after their affiliation.

By homer: 9/22/08 at 8:16 a.m.; Suggest removal

jfnance32< I guess you have not heard all though the Democrats contolled both houses of Congress the last two years they still did not have enough votes to over ride the idiot Bush's veto.
I guess you have not heard John Mccain has his finger prints all over deregulation in his twenty some years in Congress,as well being a chairman of committees that over saw dereglation. Just to think he wanted to include social security in this mess.Lets not forget ol' honest John McCain and his connection to Keating during the savings and loan scandal. John had his hands right in the pot.
John McCain has more crooked lobbyist on his election committee than a dog has flees.
It is a proven fact the person who was the head of Fannie Mae spoke to Obama once and had nothing to do with his election committee.
Of course all of you right wing neo cons blame Clinton they guy that actually gave America a budget surplus that Bush and the Republicans squandered.I guess you have not heard the Republicans want to baillout the financial institutions with tax payer money(people who work for a living and pay taxes) while letting these fiancial institutions continue with no rules or oversight in the furture. This sounds like what we have now. Lets not forget who lines the republicans pockets with money.What world have you been living in?

By homer: 9/22/08 at 8:26 a.m.; Suggest removal

peterclarke Are you delusional? John mcCain himself was a chieftan of deregulation and admitted he knew very little of economics.He knew enough he like Cheney wanted to include social security in this mess.
Regarding Phill Gramm you better read 'gordons 'post and the 'Enron Loophole' that Gramms wife engineered as well as other great things this banking lobbyist did for himslf and Republicans.
None of your statements regarding Obama are correct. Just more Rush,OReilly, and Hannity bs.
Republicans will deny deny and then out and out lie. You sir should find your moral compass.

By homer: 9/22/08 at 8:28 a.m.; Suggest removal

cignetti, If you want to keep score with d's and r's you will lose, that is if you have been awake the last eight years and know anything at all.

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 8:45 a.m.; Suggest removal

I guess they have not heard that the Democrats have been running the Do-Nothing Congress and the Do-Nothing Senate for the last two years.

I guess they have not heard that Bill Clinton signed the last major de-regulation banking bill.

I guess they have not heard that Bill Clinton pushed really hard for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go more into the sub-prime market to get more minorities into houses.

I guess they have not heard the Obama's campaign relied on economic advice from one of the ex-CEO's crooks that cooked the books of Fannie Mae and ran it the ground while earning millions in bonuses.

I guess they have not heard that Obama put in-charge of his VP selection committee another crooked ex-CEO of Fannie Mae.

I guess they have not heard that Obama is number two of list of getting cash from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae even though he has only been in DC for 3 years.

By KDR81: 9/22/08 at 8:49 a.m.; Suggest removal

I hope the fallout is big enough to scare politicians from doing this again, unfortunately will see a short term gain, just long enough for the relection so incumbants can stay in office.

Voters have short term memories. If given the option of short term gains and long term losses vs. Short term losses and long term gains we'll choose the short term gains EVERY time.

Politicians know that, so they'll bailout, subsidize, nationalize, or do whatever it takes to get a temporary recovery of the economy to keep their jobs. Even if it means screwing the rest of us over.

By NVMakz: 9/22/08 at 8:56 a.m.; Suggest removal

"
"Republicans controlled the House and Senate, and the appropriate oversight committees for over a decade......

Self-duhh-bunk #1 (276): List the "DECADE" in which (Rs) controlled the House AND Senate - blah, blah, blah..
xxxxx
"When the warning flags went up, in 2001 when Greenspan gave a speech....

Self-duhh-bunk #2 (275): List a link! Greenspan gave a speech, woohoo?? Greenspan wouldn't take ACTION, but lip-flapping (same as "the bs") during his time there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/busine...

"Mr. Greenspan and other Fed officials repeatedly dismissed warnings about a speculative bubble in housing prices. In December 2004, the New York Fed issued a report bluntly declaring that "no bubble exists."
xxxx
"And now, as the rabid neocons on AM radio slander Obama as a socialist (it IS your ignoRANTZ which denies this - 274)...

As the housing markets stabilize and rise again, the assets will be likely (as with RTC) sold off and most, if not all funds recovered. As the rabid Obamacons wail about a crisis THEIR people and primary financial advisors were in direct charge of, and their people in Congress blocked - well, duhh-bunk #3 (273)
xxxx
"And now they want to write Wall Street a blank check to fix this.....

There is NO "blank check", except in the now self-debunking mode of "the bs". As the proposals are backed by actual assets and not just LSD giveaways = the market will turn around and most, if not all of the money will be recovered (273)
xxxxx
"Could it have anything to do with McCain's Lobbyist Squad? Charlie Black, who lobbied for Freddie Mac for a decade? Who lobbied against oversight and regulations?"

TWO self-duhh-bunkments here - 272 and 271), LOL! Lobbysts are hired to lobby what their bosses tell them to. WHO was Black's BOSS at FM; none other than FRANKLIN RAINES, LOL, LOL, LOL

Raines DIDN'T WANT THEM BAILED OUT even as of JULY, 2008! It seems Raines didn't want the light shined on HIM!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...
xxxx
"As I've said before, voters aren't stupid, and this poll, placing the responsibility for the bailout squarely at the feet of Republican malfeasance, proves my contention."

You've blown yourself out on every point. You never had any "contention" to prove, but shilling for criminal like Raines and their enablers like Dodd, Obama, Frank etc.

What's that, SIX self-debunkments in one post, "the bs". Don't worry, I'll keep count for you, as unlike your side of this, you won't be "cooking the books".

"Under Raines' leadership, Fannie overstated earnings by a stunning $10.6 billion, all the while paying Raines and his senior management team massive bonuses."

http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-...

Yep! This is just the beginning........

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 9:13 a.m.; Suggest removal

This is an excellent article on recent financial news.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=n...

By Jeeze: 9/22/08 at 9:56 a.m.; Suggest removal

"For the first time in history, a serious Fannie and Freddie reform bill was passed by the Senate Banking Committee. The bill gave a regulator power to crack down, and would have required the companies to eliminate their investments in risky assets.

Different World

If that bill had become law, then the world today would be different. In 2005, 2006 and 2007, a blizzard of terrible mortgage paper fluttered out of the Fannie and Freddie clouds, burying many of our oldest and most venerable institutions. Without their checkbooks keeping the market liquid and buying up excess supply, the market would likely have not existed.

But the bill didn't become law, for a simple reason: Democrats opposed it on a party-line vote in the committee, signaling that this would be a partisan issue. Republicans, tied in knots by the tight Democratic opposition, couldn't even get the Senate to vote on the matter."

"Oh, and there is one little footnote to the story that's worth keeping in mind while Democrats point fingers between now and Nov. 4: Senator John McCain was one of the three cosponsors of S.190, the bill that would have averted this mess."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=n...

By Justin: 9/22/08 at 10:52 a.m.; Suggest removal

Hey folks...There's absolutely no reason for any bailouts because, as McCain said 1 week ago, "the economy is fundamentally strong"...Either he's a big time flip flopper or he's completely out of touch with economic reality in this country. If we elect McCain, who shares Bush's economic ideology that the best way to feed the birds is to feed the horses, US will become a third world country. The deregulatory environment /non-oversight that has been the hallmark of Wall Street since the GOP has been in office was calculated to help Bush sell this lemon of a war in Iraq. That's right, Greenspan and the Fed were hand in hand with this GOP agenda. Lowering rates down to 1 % and advocating the use of adjustable rate mortgages as Greenspan did, was like sprinkling crack on the economy. Take housing and related out of the GDP over the several years and what kind of growth do you get? That's right, 1%. Last time Bush Senior left office, we had the S&L bailouts which McCain had a front row seat to. Bush senior ignored Danny Waller's testimony to congress knowing what the stakes were. Look, a vote for the GOP is a vote for USA to become 3rd world country...

By KDR81: 9/22/08 at 11:51 a.m.; Suggest removal

Wall Street Journal editorial shows the government regulations that played a role in the crisis:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12220407...

Also says that the more regulated the bank or insurance company the larger their risk. Less regulated organizations actually behaved better.

If true it is another example that shows regulation doesn't work.

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 12:38 p.m.; Suggest removal

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=n...

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 12:38 p.m.; Suggest removal

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=n...

By thebs: 9/22/08 at 12:57 p.m.; Suggest removal

Hmmm. I see your comments continue to be removed, Makz. What's wrong, don't you know how to play nice? LOL!

#276: 1994-2006, subtract two years for your Jeffords defection and you have... ten years, aka a decade. Makz, debunked!

#275: March 22, 2000, Greenspan: "Of concern are abusive lending practices that target specific neighborhoods or vulnerable segments of the population and can result in unaffordable payments, equity stripping, and foreclosure."
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/...
Makz, debunked!

#274: Bush and his croneys oversee the largest nationalization in American history. The real socialists are the REPUBLICANS! Makz, debunked!

#273: Black, McCain's campaign manager, lobbied against more regulations on Fannie/Freddie. What legislation came out of the Republican congress to address the growing crisis? Can you name one bill? No? LOL! Gramm WROTE two of the pieces of legislation which caused this capital catastrophe... and McCain still clings to Gramm, even after he called Americans "whiners" suffering from a "mental recession." McCain LOSES the "fraudulent advisors" contest! Makz, debunked!

#273 (again, cause someone can't count!): Paulson declared he wanted it free of any strings, aka a blank check. Boehner was bending over backwards to bail out Wall Street without a pinch of oversight or accountability. Democrats require the decade of Republican obfuscation to be swept out and a new accountability installed. Makz, debunked!

#272: Raines is a known liar, yet you believe him because it helps your cause? LOL! Rained never advised Obama. Makz, debunked!

#271: (You actually counted one falsehood twice! Makz, debunked!

You keep relying on known lies to prove your case? (Raines! LOL! No credibility whatsoever!)

Yup, you're 0 for 6. The ego is in check.

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 1:03 p.m.; Suggest removal

"Raines is a known liar"

Why did the Obama campaign on more than one occassion called a known liar for advice?

I guess Obama needed fine upstanding guys like Johnson --- an another Fannie Fae ex-CEO who drive that company into the ground ---- to help with selection a VP.

Obama is number two on the list of getting cash from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and he was only their for 3 years.....LOL...good hard worker that Obama dude...

Good article: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=n...

By Gordon: 9/22/08 at 1:31 p.m.; Suggest removal

The bloomberg article is written by Kevin Hassett who states at the end "He (Kevin Hassett) is an adviser to Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona in the 2008 presidential election. The opinions expressed are his own."

Try posting something that's not a press release from the McCain campaign.

Republicans know their fingerprints are everywhere on our failed economy and are doing everything they can to blame democrats. Drudge posts a link to a 'press release' from a McCain adviser and the neocons go wild as if it's news.

We are seeing the results of 6 years of unchecked Republican control of government. If you want more of the same lies and failed policies vote for McCain. For real change vote for Obama.

By Rodney: 9/22/08 at 1:34 p.m.; Suggest removal

Thats right tell them how it is jfnance32. I find it funny how much the Dems scream when they get hurt by the truth.

By KDR81: 9/22/08 at 1:59 p.m.; Suggest removal

Gordon, not only do we need to deregulate the health insurance industry and open it to competition we need to encourage health savings accounts. Government health care won't solve any of our problems.

BTW, count all the forms of government regulation that contributed to our prolbem. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12220415...

You've got one case of deregulation and all that really did was allow mortgages to get bundled in packages and sold.

That was not the core problem, however.

By NVMakz: 9/22/08 at 2:20 p.m.; Suggest removal

"Hmmm. I see your comments continue to be removed, Makz. What's wrong, don't you know how to play nice? LOL!"

No subject point to make? I post here at the "pleasure of the moderator". They can ban me whenever they want. But, they do not!
xxxx
#276: 1994-2006, subtract two years ...

271) Are decades 12 years long for you? Is 6 years a half-decade, lol on parsing self-fallacies! lol...
xxxx
#275: March 22, 2000, Greenspan: "Of concern are abusive lending practices ...

270) My 2004 Fed signals of "no bubble" are 4 years newer than some 2000 SPEECH. Has the 90s Clintonian-era corporate frauds of many trillions been exposed by the Bush Admin.. yet - with the first AG "bubble" costing trillions?? Non-action by AG as Raines/Johnson defrauds "The People" - debunked!???
xxx
#274: Bush and his croneys ...

269) When someone robs a bank = do you blame the bank? Causes = Raines/Johnson et all = effects = harming the economy in an election year for political gains = fixes and credit = George W. Bush/Paulson and the American "People"
xxx

#273: Black, McCain's campaign manager, lobbied against more regulations on Fannie/Freddie.

268) Of course Black et all carried out the wishes of his BOSS, Raines! Arguing AGAINST more regs! Pretty dumb to let that logical fallacy go out!
xxx

#273 (again, cause someone can't count!): Paulson declared he wanted it free of any strings, aka a "blank check".

267) The funds are buying assets, not a no-collateral socialist giveaway. With AIG being a govt loan (2-3 yr payback, ims) - and this package buying assets which will rise in value as the housing mkt rises again = no blank check there! The RTC returned its "bailout" $$ to "The People"
xxxx
#272: Raines is a known liar, yet you believe him because it helps your cause? LOL! Rained never advised Obama. Makz, debunked!

266) Raines IS a liar, thanks for confirming my major, underlying argument point. (265) You support those who defend his / their rape of FM and defrauding "The People".
xxx
#271: (You actually counted one falsehood twice! Makz!

So what? Empty point? Space filler? (264)
xxx
"You keep relying on known lies to prove your case? (Raines! LOL! No credibility whatsoever!)"

You have done less than nothing to make your case - just piling-on the lead-hat "non-partisan"(still lying to yourself?) squak and honk!
xxx
"Yup, you're 0 for 6. The ego is in check."

Get back on your meds soon. I won't charge you a self-debunk point for that one! Taking pity, I guess?

LIST EVERY ONE of your 287 points? Still, crickets?

Your repayment schedule has begun. With interest!

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 2:28 p.m.; Suggest removal

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.22...

In 2005, here is an article that says: "For well over a year, Congress has been toying with ever tighter regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, while studiously avoiding the elephant in the living room--the companies' massive portfolios of mortgages and mortgage-backed securities (MBS)"

"It is a classic case of socializing the risk while privatizing the profit. The Democrats and the few Republicans who oppose portfolio limitations could not possibly do so if their constituents understood what they were doing.''"

The bill that they are talking a about is S.190 which was sponsored by John McCain.

The Democrats killed that bill.

By thebs: 9/22/08 at 2:37 p.m.; Suggest removal

#277: Can't count? Ten years is a decade. A tie is a tie, no one held the power. Instead, once the Republicans regrouped and used fear to frighten the electorate into voting for them, playing with the fear of being attacked again, Republicans took the reigns and did nothing. You lose this point.

#278: Greenspan was talking about ALL of the effects currently being felt. You feebly attempt to change the subject, but the point stands: Greenspan warned about the housing market, declining values, foreclosures and scam artists taking out loans. Point proven, Makz loses again.

#279: Bank needs better security, you blame the COMMANDER IN CHIEF for his economy, Makz! Bush appointed Paulson, Paulson begs for handout, Bush takes ALL THE CREDIT. You lose this one, bucko!

#280: So your argument is that Black is immoral? And McCain hired him and keeps him on the payroll anyway? Shame goes to McCain and point goes to me! Makz loses this one, as well.

#281: Until the mortgage-backed securites are sold (at a loss, probs!) they will remain the property of the United States Government. The largest nationalization in history is our 79.9% bailout of Fannie/Freddie... all under the watchful eye of the COMMANDER IN CHIEF, Georgy Bush! The man you voted for chose the path that led to government control of private entities and private wealth. Socailism in practice, thanks to Bush! Another loss for Makz!

#282: I never defended Raines, you did by giving him credibility when he proved he was a liar. You chose to believe his lies to make a political point... how sad and cynical! Point stands: Raines never advised Obama. You lose BIG here, squandering your credibility to defend a liar. Man, anything to try to score a point, eh?

#283: Can't count, I should count this as double.

#284: As promised. two points for bad math!

#285: You've failed to debunk ONE of my points, ergo: still very much in check.

#286: So willing to blame Clinton for anything and everything that went wrong in the 90's (and even later) but willing to give Bush $700 BILLION to hand over to his buddy. former CEO of Goldman Sachs, to dole out to domestic AND foreign banks with no strings? Tsk tsk, no lessons learned from the Force Authority declaration that allowed Bush to go into Iraq? Makz continues to back Bush's failed policies? LOL!

#287: More poor grammar and bad form.

Right back where I started? Up 287!

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 3:17 p.m.; Suggest removal

I guess they have not heard about McCain bill s.91 that was killed by the Democrats in 2005. It would put the brakes on the out-of-control Fannie Mae and Freedie Mac sub-prime craziness.

I guess they have not heard that the Democrats have been running the Do-Nothing Congress and the Do-Nothing Senate for the last two years.

I guess they have not heard that Bill Clinton signed the last major de-regulation banking bill.

I guess they have not heard that Bill Clinton pushed really hard for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go more into the sub-prime market to get more minorities into houses.

I guess they have not heard the Obama's campaign relied on economic advice from one of the ex-CEO's crooks that cooked the books of Fannie Mae and ran it the ground while earning millions in bonuses.

I guess they have not heard that Obama put in-charge of his VP selection committee another crooked ex-CEO of Fannie Mae.

I guess they have not heard that Obama is number two of list of getting cash from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae even though he has only been in DC for 3 years.

By NVMakz: 9/22/08 at 3:26 p.m.; Suggest removal

"#277: Can't count? Ten years is a decade...."

(263): Ten, as I say, not 12, as you say.
xxxxx
#278: Greenspan was talking about ALL of the effects currently being felt....

262) Talking is all he did while libs Raines et all were assisted by Frank/Dodd et all? Actions vs words. My fact vs your lib-spin.
xxxx
#279: Bank needs better security...

261) So, you don't blame the criminal(s), blame the bank. You don't blame the economic terrorist, but the blown-up "marketplace" re: the victims for not BEING SECURE ENOUGH? Thanks for making my point AGAIN.
xxxx
#280: So your argument is that Black is immoral?

260) Stuff your own words back in your mouth, how do they taste? Rancid, I bet. I'll tell YOU what I'm saying! Black's firm worked for Raines /FM from 1999-2004 first = WHILE Raines cooked books. Fact, and done!
xxx
#281: Until the mortgage-backed securites are sold (at a loss, probs!)....

"probs"?? Like yo, cooltastical on your caveatudinal brainfarts. RTC paid back! Chrysler paid back! This a two-pointer - (259 AND 258)= I think. Acknowledging asset-based collerateral AND a payback arrangement AND indicating negativism and pessimism on repayment to "the People"
xxxxx
#282: I never defended Raines, you did by giving him credibility when he proved he was a liar.....

257) Self-fallicizing to place some desperate filler? Sure! Credibility is gained when >1 person agrees here (Raines is a liar). You agreed in the last post of yours. You lose big here.
xxxxx
#283: Can't count, I should count this as double.

256) Thanks again! I put 287 in there as a tripping point for you. You fell on your face! The orig # was 277, chief!
xxx
#284: As promised. two points for bad math!

255) ditto 256. Where is there any 284? A carp on a pier, "the bs", lol!
xxx
#285: You've failed to debunk ONE of my points, ergo: still very much in check.

254) Fluff and in-denial "non-partisanship"(lol, blowhard) self-fallacies in order to mask the drumming on-going your way! Keep slithering!
xxxx
#286: So willing to blame Clinton for anything and everything that went wrong in the 90's...

253) Flailing for other filler to pile in; losing ground, losing count and losing your own arguments? Yep, bucko!
xxx
#287: More poor grammar and bad form.

252) More good news here! WHERE, along with your list of lies, IS #287??

Right back where I started? Up 287! (REALLY?)

251 AND 250) As you spin-'till-you-are-dizzy; the pro-book-cookers like Raines and Johnson; pro-non-payback to "the people"; pro loss-of-billions to "the People", anti-"bank" (protct the criminal Raines) and pro-obstructors like Dodd, Obama and Frank = the flogging you are running from and throwing irrelevancies into are worth two points.

You have an untenable position, here or wherever you respond going forward. The beginning has begun!

Think I'll stop at #000?

By thebs: 9/22/08 at 4:04 p.m.; Suggest removal

#288: Whining about a decade? That's some bankrupt rhetoric!

#289: Republicans didn't heed the warnings ,you flail here and blame Raines? Okay, Raines is also complicit. Obama remains isolated from the mess, while McCain advisors Black and Rick Davis profited greatly from the deregulated meltdown. McCain loses.

#289: Gov't job is OVERSIGHT and REGULATION of the market, to prevent the socialistic tendencies of the Republican administration. Had the Republicans stepped in when the warning lights were flashing, rather than continue to lobby against more reform and regulation, we wouldn't be in this mess. You lose this point, again. Republican hand-wringing and whining was all they had, action needed to be taken. Failed oversight on the war in Afghanistan, failed oversight on the war in Iraq, failed oversight on the financial securities markets, failed oversight on the mortgage industry... Republicans earn failure after failure. Points go to me.

#290: Black is as corrupt as Raines, that's what you inferred. Great, and who employs Black now? McCain. Stupid is as stupid does!

#291: Sorry, a blank check is a blank check, and you can't fault the American people for NEVER trusting Bush with a blank check again. Transparency and accountability are things the Republicans like McCain obfuscated for DECADES, and now they want to be the party of trust? LOL! The people have spoken, and Czar Paulson, who should've applied the brakes a year ago, goes down with his Republican cronies. -1!

#292: You claimed Raines was a "top economic advisor." Those are your words, that's your credibility at stake and you chose to believe a known liar. Raines made the claim he was an advisor, NO ONE ELSE. You believed him. Kinda gullible, I'd say! Your words, and your loss.

#293, 294, 295: Triple penalty for failing math.

#296: Blather instead of a point? You still fail to debunk ONE of my points.

#297: Makz, aka "Clinton was responsible for 9/11," now giving Bush a free pass on the mortgage and securities meltdown? Double standard!

#298: Again referencing Raines as if he matters anymore. Every Raines mention? -1 for you!

#299: Another Raines mention.

#300: Ego, ego ego! Kept in check! Checkmate, in fact!

By NVMakz: 9/22/08 at 5:04 p.m.; Suggest removal

"#288: Whining about a decade.....

249) Final cave-in accepted! My decade is 10 years, yours 12 = you lose!
xxxx

#289: Republicans didn't heed the warnings...

248) Bush administration in 2003 and forward; McCain in 2005 - Dems in Congress block and deny votes = along with you, assistance to the economic terrorist AND no-consideration for the blown-up "marketplace".
xxxx
#289: Gov't job is OVERSIGHT and REGULATION of the market...

247) More irrelevant filler subjects, flailing for ANYTHING.
xxxx
#290: Black is as corrupt as Raines...

246) Moral equivalence?? Black's firm hired LONG before the current issues were discovered (Black left 2004, ims), Raines in 2005/6, ims. = and lobbying for their BOSSMAN, Raines. Black had nothing to do with cooking FM's books, (245) Black's lobbying firm did what they were hired to do. If that makes them hypocritical whores, well that's the perception of lobbiests anyway. No credit there!
xxxx
#291: Sorry, a blank check is a blank check....

244) WAAA, the cave in!! Another point for you are re-whining already debunked talking points!
xxxx
#292: You claimed Raines was a "top economic advisor...

244) YOU referenced a WP story which included "IF one believes Raines...". YOU later agree he's a liar. How many points would you like to lose on this?
xxx
#293, 294, 295: Triple penalty for failing math.

243) Whing unearned points while not making one of your own. You are just awful at debate.
xxx
#296: Blather instead of a point? You still fail to debunk ONE of my points.

242) There is NO "point 296" to de-bunk?
xxxx
#297: Makz, aka "Clinton was responsible for 9/11," now giving Bush a free pass on the mortgage and securities meltdown? Double standard!

241) Where IS the 9/11 point in this thread? Shovel in the lib-filler of irrelevance and desperation.
xxx
#298: Again referencing Raines as if he matters anymore. Every Raines mention? -1 for you!

240, 239) Sliding into "don't hurt me" DENIAL NOW?? For sure! Just TMI, TMI is what you type.

I'll take two for the admission of "I just can't take anymore of Makz whipping me with Raines et all cooking books and "robbing the bank""(mq).
xxxx
#299: Another Raines mention.

238, 237) Another TWO for "the bs'" "non-partisan" bleating in pain and loss today. Raines is a criminal you can and DO support, even though a LIAR; this has earlier been established!
xxxx
#300: Ego, ego ego! Kept in check! Checkmate, in fact!

236) "the bs'" self-fallacy contributions and being beaten and again, no point mentioned. FACT is my "ego" here. Plowing in off-subject filler and losing your count, arguments and self-respect just makes this day all the more enjoyable.

Where will you be tomorrow? I'll stop by wherever that is and pile on again. Act one, a massive success. 41 points from the self-debunking, flailing and desperate-for-a-clue "the bs".

WHAT a day!

By NVMakz: 9/22/08 at 5:07 p.m.; Suggest removal

P.S. - "the bs":

You may now assume your position in "last place"!

By morgen: 9/22/08 at 5:17 p.m.; Suggest removal

OF COURSE BLAME THE REPUBLICANS!
Jonh McCAin voted to deregulate Wall Street and BUSH was for GIVING SOCIAL SECURITY TO WALL STREET! What would have happened, huh? Have any of the McCain voters STOPPED for a minute to think???
Want EIGHT MORE YEARS OF THIS??

By thebs: 9/22/08 at 5:23 p.m.; Suggest removal

#301: Still whining about ten years? LOL!

#302: Name the votes. Prove the filibuster. You don't. You can't. More bankrupt rhetoric devoid of fact or proof. LOL!

#303: You deny the essential role of our government, the essential role that the Republican failed to heed: oversight and regulation. You champion McCain, the deregulator. You deny that, with foresight, this crisis could have been averted. You deny that foresight was back in 2000, by Greenspan. You deny that the Republicans trudged onward, the value of their portfolios acting as blinders. Their net worth was increasing, no need to check and make sure those securities aren't rotten! The Republican pathos in full bloom! $$$!

#304: Black worked DURING the entire deregulation saga. Davis defended Fannie/Freddie from more regulations... to the tune of $2 million! You deride a debunked "non-advisor" of Obama but not THE CAMPAIGN MANAGER AND TOP CAMPAIGN ADVISOR to McCain? LOL!!!! DOUBLE STANDARD!

#305: Double points for your double standard!

#306: Boehner almost CRIED when Dodd announced there wouldn't be a blank check. The American public DESERVES TO KNOW what they're buying, the value now, the corrupt securities, that you would deny this is ABHORRENT.

#307: Mentioned Raines again. -1: DEBUNKED! LOL! Clinging to your PROVEN lies? Sad. YOU claimed he was a top economic advisor, now you slither away. His lies have NO COLLABORATION, yet you cling to them anyway. Bankrupt!

#308: More exhibition of your double standard: Hold Clinton responsible for EVERYTHING but give Bush a free pass on the FAILURE of his economic policies and advisors. ALL REPUBLICANS!

#309: -10 for DEFENDING Raines again! LOL! I DARE you to quote me defending Raines! It's all in your head! LOLOL!!!

#319: You've so completely lost this, you're off the rails, flailing and spinning as hard as you can. There was NO SUBSTANCE to that entire last post. Instead, just Makz's standard-issue double standards and poor grammar. Silly neologisms and debunked rhetoric.

So utterly clueless! :)

By RI: 9/22/08 at 5:39 p.m.; Suggest removal

The financial crisis was caused by people buying homes they could not afford and getting even further over their heads by taking home equity loans to pay for remodeling, expensive furnishings, cars, trips etc.

When interest rates went up, and/or they lost their jobs due to rising energy costs, etc., they suddenly could not pay their mortgages. Then home values fell and they owed more than what their houses were worth.

Democrats have pushed for the sub prime, no money down loans to enable low income and minorities to have the "American dream" of home ownership. Now we all have an "American nightmare."

Also to blame is this narcissistic culture that encourages people to buy things they cannot afford because they "deserve" it.

Sooner or later, like Pres. Bush said, the house of cards was going to fall.

I would describe it as a house of "credit cards."

By thebs: 9/22/08 at 5:51 p.m.; Suggest removal

Makz, in his own words:

"Frank Raines (Freddie), who was drummed out in disgrace after making 90 million in 6 years for cooking the books and CAUSING the beginnings of the instability of the Mac/Mae businesses). AND, Jim Johnson - who helped run both Bear Stearns AND Fannie into the ditch... ARE OBAMA'S PRIMARY ECONOMIC ADVISORS, LOL!! EXACTLY as if Bush HAD hired Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay OF ENRON as his personal econ-advisors- isn't it?"
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/sep...

Whoops! An UTTER LIE. Makz can't run away from this one! Makz tossed his credibility into the gutter when he transcribed false RNC talking points into his posts without doing a single second of research!

As noted by the Washington Post:

"The McCain campaign is clearly exaggerating wildly in attempting to depict Franklin Raines as a close adviser to Obama on "housing and mortgage policy." If we are to believe Raines, he did have a couple of telephone conversations with someone in the Obama campaign. But that hardly makes him an adviser to the candidate himself -- and certainly not in the way depicted in the McCain video release."

Makz debunked, yet again!

By avatar: 9/22/08 at 7:11 p.m.; Suggest removal

Senator John McCain's campaign manager was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, current and former officials say.

Freddie and Fannie did not pay any Democrats for privilege! 1.8 million dollars over 5 years to keep Freddie and Fannie clear of those silly regulators.

Read the story
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/us/pol...

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 7:13 p.m.; Suggest removal

Raines did give advice to Obama campaign on more than one occasion.

Johnson was in-charge of the VP selection process for Obama.

Both are ex-CEO Fannie Mae that made millions by cooking the books and hiding the bad loans that eventually sunk that company and caused the US government to spend billions to bail it out.

Obama was #2 on the list of getting cash from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and he only has been in the Senate for 3 years.....LOL

On S91, McCain's bill to increase regulation of Fannie Mae and Freedie Mac...the Democrats killed that bill in 2005.

By RI: 9/22/08 at 7:41 p.m.; Suggest removal

Pres. Bush and John McCain proposed legislation in 2003 and 2005 that would have avoided this financial crisis. Each time, the Democrats blocked it.

http://bellalu0.wordpress.com/2008/09/17...

By avatar: 9/22/08 at 7:59 p.m.; Suggest removal

Nance- at least I supply the article.

All you do is talk and talk is cheap.

Back up what you say or don't say it.

Show the article where Obama is #2 on the money list or shut up.

By Future2012: 9/22/08 at 8:08 p.m.; Suggest removal

DEMs will win by continuing to doing nothing and not being responsible for anything

So what is really scary is that now George Bush, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Charles Schumer, Chris Dodd, and Barney Franks are negotiating our future this week. Obama has called out (on 9-22) that this effort is under siege from lobbyist.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said 9-22-2008, that Democrats in Congress will not grant President Bush "a blank check" $700 billion financial bailout bill without debate over amendments to "protect taxpayers." But we will give him a check.

President elect Barak Obama (backed by Robert Rubin, Jim Johnson, and 300 advisors on Friday morning) has made a point of NOT having on position on the negotiations.

It is important to understand and that Democrats like Bill Clinton, Barak Obama, Jimmy Carter, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Christopher Dodd, Richard Durbin, Charles Schumer, Patrick Leahy, Charles Rangel, and Barney Franks have had done "nothing" with regard to the energy and financial laws in this country over the last 32 years.

But Democrats are not out of touch. They just need to kept ruminating.

By doing nothing and not being involved in the 2000 dot.com meltdown, the start of the housing meltdown of 2006, or the sending of 700 billion petro dollars overseas, Democrats clearly have no bloody fingerprints on anything.

By not having been involved in these energy security and financial laws, for the last 32 years these folk are "issue virgins", and can, with clean slates, come in and tell us what to do.

All week, Obama has carefully just demonized the economy and blamed the GOP for all our problems. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi have back him up on the lack of Democratic involvement in these issues for the last 32 years.

By Future2012: 9/22/08 at 8:15 p.m.; Suggest removal

Black was just a lobbyist doing what Fannie and Freddie want done.

Black was paid by the CEO of Fannie and Freddie,

Obama knows who the CEOs of Fannie and Freddie were.

By Future2012: 9/22/08 at 8:30 p.m.; Suggest removal

All week, Obama has carefully just demonized the economy and blamed the GOP for all our problems.

Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi have back him up on the lack of Democratic involvement in these issues for the last 32 years.

Obama has repeated this week that his:
-New Taxes (wealth redistribution taxes, oil taxes, investment taxes, and payroll taxes),
-New Spending (including those annual 1000 dollar welfare checks to those 44% not making $200k and that do not now pay taxes),
-turning oil companies into non-profits,
-Nationalizing financial institutions (Democratic are doing this week), -
-Nationalizing health care,
-Eliminating foreign trade,
-Stopping war and Cashing in on the peace dividend so we can cut the military, etc.

is just the thing to re-invigorate the economy.

Since the Democrats have done nothing, and are not responsible for anything, this will be a great new fresh start.

By thebs: 9/22/08 at 8:43 p.m.; Suggest removal

"Raines did give advice to Obama campaign on more than one occasion."

That's an ALLEGATION made by a known liar. Prove this with a source OTHER THAN FRANK RAINES. You can't. Your entire argument is predicated on a single sentence from a known liar, who was boasting of something that never happened.

Raines never advised Obama. That's a Hannity myth... no doubt where you got it from.

LOL, clueless!

Nance, care to link "McCain's" legislation? All I can find is S.190, which was NOT "McCain's," it was Hagel's. Hagel wrote the legislation... and Hagel supports Obama.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd...

S.190 died in a REPUBLICAN-led committee.

Y'all have no one to blame but your own party.

As for Future, your excuse for Black is that "he was just doing what he was paid to do?" That's no excuse. He was actively lobbying against additional regulations AS the ship was sinking.

And John McCain hired Black as his right-hand man.

Guess there's no morality or ethics when you're gettin' paid, is there, Future?

By Future2012: 9/22/08 at 9:06 p.m.; Suggest removal

How can we agree more, since the Democrats

-have done nothing,

-are not responsible for anything,

this will be a great new fresh start.

Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Charles Schumer, Chris Dodd, and Barney Franks are negotiating our future this week.

I for one can not wait for the results.

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 9:25 p.m.; Suggest removal

Raines gave advice to the Obama campaign on more than one occasion.

"taken calls from Barack Obama's presidential campaign seeking his advice on mortgage and housing policy matters. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

"Two members of Mr. Obama's political circle, James A. Johnson and Franklin D. Raines, are former chief executives of Fannie Mae"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

When these stories hit the newspapers originally...the Obama campaign never disputed them.

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 9:32 p.m.; Suggest removal

S.190 had John McCain and two others as co-sponsers.

Below is McCain's speech in 2005. To bad, they did not listen to him.....sigh......

"For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs--and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market."

"I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole."

By jfnance32: 9/22/08 at 9:43 p.m.; Suggest removal

All the Democrats of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs voted to let s190 die in committee and that effectively killed the bill.

By thebs: 9/22/08 at 11:08 p.m.; Suggest removal

"All the Democrats of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs voted to let s190 die in committee and that effectively killed the bill."

Prove it.

You know what's funny about S.190? First, you didn't even know who wrote the bill, or the correct number. Second, you can't cite a single source that backs up your claim that Dems killed it.

S.190 was written by Hagel, not McCain, you gave credit to the wrong man, of course.

S.190 died in a REPUBLICAN committee. They govern the bills brought to the floor.

Stop passing the buck and wake up to reality.

The Washington Post story was debunked... by the Washington Post. The ONLY PERSON to claim Raines spoke to the Obama campaign was Raines himself, a known liar.

Raines WAS NOT an advisor to Obama. Stop lying.

You fail this argument, hard, Nance!

By avatar: 9/22/08 at 11:12 p.m.; Suggest removal

The Republican mismanagement trifecta. These bills spearheaded by a Texas Republic have cost this country TRILLIONS when all is said and done. Who is it? Adding a bit of mystery to a string of posts.

Later in his Senate career, ______________ spearheaded efforts to pass banking reform laws, including the landmark __________-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999, which served to reduce government regulations in existence since the Great Depression separating banking, insurance and brokerage activities.
Years later, critics of _____________ point out that this same legislation may have been pivotal in encouraging the corporate practices that led to the 2008 mortgage crises in America.

______________ was one of five co-sponsors of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000. One provision of the bill was referred to as the "Enron loophole" because the House Agriculture Committee drafted it and it was later applied to Enron. Some critics blame the provision for permitting the Enron scandal to occur. At the time, _________ wife was previously on Enron's board of directors.

Between 1995 and 2000 ____________, who was the chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, received $1,000,914 in campaign contributions from the Securities & Investment industry.

He was John McCain's presidential campaign co-chair and his most senior economic adviser from summer 2007 to July 18, 2008.
His fundamental economic theory is described by his critics as "Reverse Robin Hood and Little John Economics". This theory assumes that to improve the quality of people's lives you must impose the burden of tax on the middle class and poor, while providing tax relief to the rich or wealthy.

In a July 9, 2008 interview explaining McCain's plans in reforming the U.S. economy, ________________ downplayed the idea that the nation was in a recession, stating, "You've heard of mental depression; this is a mental recession," and "We have sort of become a nation of whiners, you just hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness, America in decline.

Place Phil Gramm above the line and you have the makings of a national disaster.

Bravo Mr. Gramm- love your quote- "this is a mental recession". How about 700 billion dollars worth a real depression. Republicans are so out of touch with reality it blows the mind. This guy was McCain's most senior economic advisor????????????

Another famous Phil quote

"I recently told Ed Whitacre [former CEO of AT&T, who retired with a $158 million pay package] he was probably the most exploited worker in American history"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Gramm#...

By redferret: 9/23/08 at 8:07 a.m.; Suggest removal

hey thebs, what is up with the numbers? Did makz start keeping score or something? In any case, neologisms and snarky nicknames do not a better argument make. Also even though you actively criticize republicans thebs, nice job not constantly calling them various and sundry names. In any case can we please fast forward to Nov. 20th (it'll be my birthday AND the political silly season will be over).

By NVMakz: 9/23/08 at 8:22 a.m.; Suggest removal

" Still whining about ten years? LOL!"
235) No, I won this long ago. Decades are 10, not 12 years long. Another (234) for impotent non-responsiveness.
xxxx
" Name the votes. Prove the filibuster. You don't. You can't. More bankrupt rhetoric devoid of fact or proof. LOL!"

233) Where did I say "filibuster" re: for the specific housing/banking legislation. I didn't!
xxx
"You deny the essential role of our government, the essential role that the Republican failed to heed: oversight and regulation....."

232) Sounds like a true socialist, "the bs"! Defend the liberal criminals, while castigating the honest. Blame the "marketplace" for not "being secure enough" as you defend the econ-terrorists who cook books and give massive bonuses to themselves = "the bs".
xxx
" Black worked DURING the entire deregulation saga. Davis defended Fannie/Freddie from more regulations...

231, 230) Reiterating my point once again.
xxxxx
" Double points for your double standard!"

229) The king of hypocritical double-standards is now non-responsive. My battering does that!
xxxx
" Boehner almost CRIED when Dodd announced there wouldn't be a blank check. The American public DESERVES TO KNOW what they're buying, the value now, the corrupt securities, that you would deny this is ABHORRENT."

228) Reference where I said "the People" shouldn't know what they are buying?
xxx
" Mentioned Raines again. "

227) I know exposing you on Raines' antics HURTS, "the bs". The subject of Raines is your defending this economic criminal's side of politics and his obstructive liberal cronies. You're more non-responsive as you lose this. Where did your "game" go?
xxxx
" More exhibition of your double standard: Hold Clinton responsible for EVERYTHING but give Bush a free pass on the FAILURE of his economic policies and advisors. ALL REPUBLICANS!"

226) Repeating irrelevant talking points again and again only costs you cred.
xxxx
" -10 for DEFENDING Raines again! LOL! I DARE you to quote me defending Raines! It's all in your head! LOLOL!!!"

225) Raines and his FM cronies, like Jim Johnsom / Jamie Gorelick, scammed millions, and you defend his/their liberal/political POV.
xxxxx
" You've so completely lost this, you're off the rails, flailing and spinning as hard as you can.....

224) Abandoning any pretense of argument and debate; you are reduced to picking nits and lying to try to let us know just because you type, you argue. That ended long ago, lazy-lawyer.
xxxx
"So utterly clueless! :)"

223) Yes, you are! You are now down 54 debate points. Spare me your emotiCONs, they are for the immature, like you!.

By NVMakz: 9/23/08 at 8:25 a.m.; Suggest removal